DUST Search - There is a problem I think its time we talked about.

All Channels

General Discussions

There is a problem I think its time we talked about.

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 [2] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1480	Posted - 2015.04.30 01:57:00 - [31] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Jonny D Buelle wrote: 7th Son 7 wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: 7th Son 7 wrote: PS4 While I support the notion of PS4 it actually wouldn't do anything to this problem at all. This is a problem with code, not performance. Correct but it appears as tho they can't get the code right on the ps3 so i'm going to pitch the ps4 Again I'm going to pitch the Xbox One. Will never happen until MS changes their server policy. Server policy is only part of the problem. $40k license to update game and all in game AUR items would have to be on the Xbox store, not actually in game. Some of the barriers have changed but MSFT is still bozo controlled for the most part. Both next generation consoles are using tablet APUs with graphic engine reductions from the maximum available. So, a really low end (aka $400) PC. Moving to a cheap PC will not help. Even a full blown PC will not address the CCP server and network architecture. Which were designed to solve a point and click adventure in Spaaace. Dust ain't EVE. Thank the gods. Also responded to OP. I rarely see that behavior. I am in the USA and run in the American or EU servers. The described problem only happens when the entire match is laggy. A rare condition. Although the very reason I don't play PC. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
Mobius Wyvern Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 6289	Posted - 2015.04.30 02:13:00 - [32] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: 7th Son 7 wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: 7th Son 7 wrote: PS4 While I support the notion of PS4 it actually wouldn't do anything to this problem at all. This is a problem with code, not performance. Correct but it appears as tho they can't get the code right on the ps3 so i'm going to pitch the ps4 Again I'm going to pitch the Xbox One. Microsoft barely even improved the hardware from the 360. That thing is a giant Cable box that happens to play games. I mean, I'm not even fanboying here. Have you looked at the specs on the XBone? Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 219	Posted - 2015.04.30 02:38:00 - [33] - Quote This happens quite a while. I wont say anything else because I know jack **** about it. Amarr Victor Join "PIE Ground Control" for secure Amarr FW syncing and orbital support
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5823	Posted - 2015.04.30 02:43:00 - [34] - Quote Can you guys drop the platform war crap, please? We have that in like every other thread. Thanks. I'm serious about this issue and I don't appreciate it being blobbed out by some nonsense. NO ONE is talking about this and its kind of a big deal. That worries me. Usually banned for being too awesome.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1482	Posted - 2015.04.30 04:12:00 - [35] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Soldner VonKuechle wrote: Could there be a relation between our teleport issues and TQs calculator sequence/per second we all lovingly refer to as 'ticks'? I know im asking alot of questions but you seem to know what youre talking about and knowledge is my own personal jesus/crack. The tick indeed functions in a similar manner. Dust simply happens to tick faster, and it seems as though the "tick rate" may be based on immediate proximity. Okay, you both should hunt down John Carmack's thread regarding fixing the netcode in Quake. It is the basis for most FPS netcode models ever since. Although, maybe not in Dust. Try http://fabiensanglard.net/ he has some code reviews of Doom and such as well as a copy of JC email thread that describes what he was trying to accomplish. If you want to learn that is a great place to start. Look at the concepts John addressed and how he solved them. After that you must, must, must realize the CCP server architecture and network architecture (h/w & s/w) was never designed to handle a modern FPS. Check the latency numbers for EVE. Horrible numbers for an FPS. EVE actually does the worst code ever for handling the load in EVE Online. Instead of common solutions prevalent throughout the server business (and game business) they run a module that slows time for the users down to 10% effective. A single click in a large space battle can take seconds to respond to. Because the server is fighting the entire battle, EVE players only select a target, choose their weapons and activate/deactivate modules. They are doing none of the fighting on their PC. While it is obviously a valid solution as they have been doing this for over a decade, it struggles to support heavy loads and FPS activity. Indeed the beginning EVE server code was all Ruby. While fine for light weight web code and untrained coders it is lethal to base a growing business on. Sure, use it to knock out the design, server protocols (maybe), see what works and what doesn't in the UI. Do some basic A/B testing and such. But Ruby was at the heart of all of EVE server code until Dust514 came to TQ. Back to Dust514 and your questions. First there are two possible answers for any FPS and how to structure the network. One is client PTP connections. Each client talks to each other client, the server is only their to negotiate beginning matches. Second option is the server is involved in some fashion. Each new client is a factorial addition to the network load. Tough to make it work. Typical the decision line is like this: client does 100% of local animation to server does 100% of damage and position determination. The normal solution is to slide the actual divider between the two ends during testing. Dust seems to choose having the client do the animation with some predictive work for objects that are not their own player while their server is the final arbiter of who got shot by who and, sort of, when. Bad news, if the server says so - you're dead. Nothing being displayed on the client will change that math. Now, the only reason I jumped in here is you were getting distracted with TQ's tick, refresh rates and other SINGLE PLAYER FPS issues. Those get tossed out the window when you play Online, much less online with 31 others. Yes, in single player mode faster refresh rates enable smooth game play. In online FPS with fast connections (latency < 40ms) a faster refresh can allow smoother 'feeling' controls. BUT! Faster refresh at the client means more packets, more network traffic, more creation of and parsing of packets and more results from the server to mesh into your client's world view as well as more input pulses that must be handled or dropped. And yeah, BTW, network packets get dropped. Everything is a guess at best. Also high refresh rates are PC solutions, not old console solutions. Indeed, some of the reviews for this generation consoles say they are still at 30FPS with an occasional game (not necessarily even co-op) hitting 60FPS (area of). Nothing runs faster in console space. Here in Dust514 the server rules (I believe so, at any rate). Each client says where their player is, what he/she has done, bullets fired, target lock ad nauseum and(!!) so does the other guy(s). So the server resolves who got shot, by whom, how badly and oh yeah why don't you show some bullet traces even if it looks like they went through the wall. Note, the bullet didn't go through the wall, you got shot while you were in the clear and the server resolved you getting hit. Then your client has to figure out someway to show you actually getting shot and bang you're dead. Without John Carmack's initial foray into network code we would be having really smoking each other in 4v4. Read the thread, with luck your will learn a little bit and you can appreciate the effort it takes to solve these problems. Then remember his effort was for online play when the fast connection was a dial up. Dust514 is working, it has a small team supporting it, it is profitable and we just got an update. Quite frankly three of those are near miracles in my view. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5829	Posted - 2015.04.30 04:55:00 - [36] - Quote Good post. Yes, I do appreciate the effort it takes in solving these problems. I suppose at this point I could go into the blame game of why Dust is designed a certain way with its netcode when the rest of the industry seems to have gone in a much different (and superior) direction, but that would get us nowhere. At some point, someone decided to go this route. It's a thing, and it happened. Dust has a very small team now, and only they know whether or not they have enough programming manpower to dedicate to this issue. I would imagine as this runs on UE3 (albeit modified) there should already be theoretically applicable solutions. I'm sure its not as easy as "copy and paste netcode here" especially as we now have aim assist designed around this somewhat screwed up movement prediction, but it seems like if there's anything deserving the manhours its this. Usually banned for being too awesome.
Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 2225	Posted - 2015.04.30 05:05:00 - [37] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: if there's anything deserving the manhours its this. edited for urgency. also thanks kal, lotsa reading but it explained a huge portion of what (i think) is the problem Here I was thinking you drove tanks, but clearly thats just your ego that you ride around in. -DUST fiend to Dark Cloud
Seed Dren Helix Order Learning Alliance 177	Posted - 2015.04.30 05:26:00 - [38] - Quote (Hopes the hilmar hears you.) Amarr assualt + shotgun + hellfire= illuminati confirmed
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5831	Posted - 2015.04.30 05:52:00 - [39] - Quote Seed Dren wrote: (Hopes the hilmar hears you.) I'd settle for the Rattati or the Rouge. This is a bit below Hilmar's paygrade. Usually banned for being too awesome.
SgtMajSquish MLBJ Consolidated Dust 443	Posted - 2015.04.30 06:03:00 - [40] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: 7th Son 7 wrote: PS4 While I support the notion of PS4 it actually wouldn't do anything to this problem at all. This is a problem with code, not performance. this is absolutely an issue with performance We have no one to blame for the poor state of the game except ourselves(and Rattati for listening)

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5832	Posted - 2015.04.30 06:06:00 - [41] - Quote SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: 7th Son 7 wrote: PS4 While I support the notion of PS4 it actually wouldn't do anything to this problem at all. This is a problem with code, not performance. this is absolutely an issue with performance You don't get it. If the game locked up during really bad frame rate sessions it could send bad signals and people could ghost out. That's common in all games, really. But that's not what is happening here. Even at 30 frames perfect, its bad netcode. Not a hardware performance thing. Usually banned for being too awesome.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 10491	Posted - 2015.04.30 06:11:00 - [42] - Quote Port the game over to the N64 *As long as 5/6 (83%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Seed Dren Helix Order Learning Alliance 177	Posted - 2015.04.30 06:14:00 - [43] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Port the game over to the N64 Console wars just got real. Amarr assualt + shotgun + hellfire= illuminati confirmed
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5832	Posted - 2015.04.30 06:14:00 - [44] - Quote Sometimes I think this community is too dumb to talk about certain things. And sometimes I'm completely sure of it. smh. Usually banned for being too awesome.
Sequal's Back Dead Man's Game RUST415 572	Posted - 2015.04.30 08:49:00 - [45] - Quote Unfortunately the core of the game was coded on a rush, and it doesn't help Dust at all. Rattati and his dev team can try fixing small things here and there, do some tweaks, but it wont change the core of the game. The servers are also not made for a FPS as Kal said, which creates huge differences between what the client sees (you) and what the server registers. It would need a real investment in time and money for the devs to fix all this. IMO it's worth it, but a bit late now.. Fix the game before trying to add anything else. (Hint: hit detection, lags, glitches,.. you've got some work :) )
Mobius Wyvern Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 6290	Posted - 2015.04.30 11:43:00 - [46] - Quote SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: 7th Son 7 wrote: PS4 While I support the notion of PS4 it actually wouldn't do anything to this problem at all. This is a problem with code, not performance. this is absolutely an issue with performance I don't think that guy phrased what he wanted to say correctly. The point is that the performance is related to the coding of the software, not the hardware it's running on. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 9327	Posted - 2015.04.30 12:30:00 - [47] - Quote Yes, please! ~~Inertia = 0~~ Inertia = 1 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Unit Pwnycorn 3126	Posted - 2015.04.30 13:42:00 - [48] - Quote Old issue is old, Himiko: this kind of issues have been worked and discussed for almost three years now and CCP always tried to solve this by design: applying a strong Aim Assist (although, not as strong as many other FPS), and nerfing strafing speed a notch . if they cannot, for some reason, get a better net code, better optimization and so on for PS3, devs should try solving these issues with game design. A possible simple solution would be nerfing the strafe speed and add more inertia whenever you change direction, maybe also adjusting Aim assist a little bit: tune down, for example, aim magnetism at certain ranges, compensate for less magnetism with a bit more aim friction at more range, add a little bullet magnetism in order to even up connections speed. Would also switch hit detection to mixed local/server where the server simply check if the packet sent is true or not. That's what I would do if I designed Dust but didn't have the resources to get a better code, but of course, I'm not a Game Designer (at least, not yet ). Guinea Dust Bunnies are watching you, CCP Rouge.
xTheSiLLyRaBBiTx Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 525	Posted - 2015.04.30 18:29:00 - [49] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: When you watch another player move in Dust, it isn't really movement as much as it is teleporting one meter at a time. When trying to hit a target at range this is made even more apparent, as "correct" sharp shooting involves fluid movement prediction. Ask a sniper what kind of targets they hit the most and it will usually be someone who is either standing completely still, or running in a very long straight line. Miss a lethal shot, and the target will become aware and start changing directions rapidly which results in micro teleportation. Something nearly impossible to predict, and the kill becomes more about blind luck than skill. In the past, towards the early Uprising patches this problem with movement affected vehicles heavily. They would stutter and teleport about as if you were watching an old claymation film. This problem is currently affecting infantry hard, however. And the better the game performs in terms of frame rate, the more apparent the micro teleportation becomes. No longer can jagged movement be blamed on simply a poor frame rate. I think it's time we addressed this problem and got it some serious attention. The game flow is undeniably better, however this problem I still see... A lot. *\|LOGi GOD\|* Director of Fatal Absolution
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5844	Posted - 2015.04.30 18:57:00 - [50] - Quote Sequal's Back wrote: Unfortunately the core of the game was coded on a rush, and it doesn't help Dust at all. Rattati and his dev team can try fixing small things here and there, do some tweaks, but it wont change the core of the game. The servers are also not made for a FPS as Kal said, which creates huge differences between what the client sees (you) and what the server registers. It would need a real investment in time and money for the devs to fix all this. IMO it's worth it, but a bit late now.. That part is not entirely correct from what I understand. Dust does not run off of TQ. it runs off of regionally placed servers which simply happen to be linked up to TQ, and trade information with it. Usually banned for being too awesome.

Scheneighnay McBob And the ButtPirates 6324	Posted - 2015.04.30 18:59:00 - [51] - Quote 7th Son 7 wrote: PS4 PC Some details can be ignored
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1491	Posted - 2015.04.30 21:45:00 - [52] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: 7th Son 7 wrote: PS4 PC You cute little troll, you. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1492	Posted - 2015.04.30 21:56:00 - [53] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: Unfortunately the core of the game was coded on a rush, and it doesn't help Dust at all. Rattati and his dev team can try fixing small things here and there, do some tweaks, but it wont change the core of the game. The servers are also not made for a FPS as Kal said, which creates huge differences between what the client sees (you) and what the server registers. It would need a real investment in time and money for the devs to fix all this. IMO it's worth it, but a bit late now.. That part is not entirely correct from what I understand. Dust does not run off of TQ. it runs off of regionally placed servers which simply happen to be linked up to TQ, and trade information with it. It runs on the same server, same hardware, similar software, exact same network infrastructure and odds are very, very high the same exact network code. This is an old game on an old console. It is F2P, enjoy it for what it is. Hand coding everything on the Cell Broadband Processor will accomplish nothing for the actual problems described in this thread. Remember the history: Dust514 on CCP's own game engine, converted to Unreal Engine 3, over a year of alpha beta, released a different game for Uprising 1.0. The increase in graphic quality actually cost the game the biggest hit on performance. Yes, I run low detail and low textures, it helps. The input code is suspect, always has been and is either a third party library of box-stock UE3 which was nothing to shout about in the first place. Part of the original idea had to be buy UE3 for $50k (cheap!) and then upgrade to UE4 when released. Which was late and Epic never delivered it for the PS3. So - you're screwed and stuck on your modified UE3. CCP Rattatti and crew are working at making it better. The problems are legion (oh god, I have been waiting forever to use that line) but they are few. They focus their efforts where they are best used. Better rewards, fun toys, new features, skins (ooh too pricey) and slow but steady progress. Putting effort into changing the network code - well, frankly if I was in command I wouldn't do it, even if I could get it past CCP upper level management. There are too many other things to do that are much more important. And so it goes. Good Luck out there. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5852	Posted - 2015.04.30 22:47:00 - [54] - Quote Devs have stated previously that it's not using the same hardware as TQ. I don't know where you're getting information to the contrary. They have also stated that Dust has never at any phase been playable on Carbon. In high end PC's they could hardly put two player models in the same room without melting the cards, and that was just with EVE. Imagine an entire battlefield like that? Haha, no. That was an urban myth which started during a very early presentation when a dev misspoke. The reality is that the game had been running on UE3 the entire time, but at that phase was running on PC. Prior to that it was being experimented on as both an RTS game, as well as a single player shooter involving a Gallente operative. As far as priorities go, I would still rank this as top tier. If you don't have fluid movement, you have teleportation. If you have teleportation, you don't have a legitimate FPS experience. You simply cannot track a teleporting target and that defeats the most fundamental part of a high health tracking shooter. It doesn't matter what they stack on top of it if that part of the game is broken. Now here is some food for thought. The game hasn't always been this way. Why do you think that is, and would you assume it cannot be reversed? Usually banned for being too awesome.
Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 2233	Posted - 2015.04.30 22:54:00 - [55] - Quote Can I just sperg "NETCODE HARDER!" at devs until i get bored of doing that? Here I was thinking you drove tanks, but clearly thats just your ego that you ride around in. -DUST fiend to Dark Cloud
Dreis ShadowWeaver 0uter.Heaven Back and Forth 3348	Posted - 2015.04.30 23:29:00 - [56] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: When you watch another player move in Dust, it isn't really movement as much as it is teleporting one meter at a time. When trying to hit a target at range this is made even more apparent, as "correct" sharp shooting involves fluid movement prediction. Ask a sniper what kind of targets they hit the most and it will usually be someone who is either standing completely still, or running in a very long straight line. Miss a lethal shot, and the target will become aware and start changing directions rapidly which results in micro teleportation. Something nearly impossible to predict, and the kill becomes more about blind luck than skill. In the past, towards the early Uprising patches this problem with movement affected vehicles heavily. They would stutter and teleport about as if you were watching an old claymation film. This problem is currently affecting infantry hard, however. And the better the game performs in terms of frame rate, the more apparent the micro teleportation becomes. No longer can jagged movement be blamed on simply a poor frame rate. I think it's time we addressed this problem and got it some serious attention. I don't get this issue very often. Play on your own region's server and/or upgrade internet. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel My Minja Blog Day 14/30 exclusively Minja
Baron Mingus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2015.04.30 23:43:00 - [57] - Quote I'm really leaning on the user's ISP and/or network quality on this one. Mainly, because teleporting is the most classic symptom of high ping there is, and also because I very rarely see this myself when playing.
DUST Fiend 16825	Posted - 2015.05.01 00:19:00 - [58] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: 7th Son 7 wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: 7th Son 7 wrote: PS4 While I support the notion of PS4 it actually wouldn't do anything to this problem at all. This is a problem with code, not performance. Correct but it appears as tho they can't get the code right on the ps3 so i'm going to pitch the ps4 Again I'm going to pitch the Xbox One. I absolutely under no circumstances want to ever buy an Xbox One With that said, if the new Phantom Dust plays like the original, I will be bound by the contract I made with the Devil to buy one, and return to playing the best damn multiplayer game in all of ever. Time will tell. *"My bitter is showing. I must retreat to the berry patch."* STUFF
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5855	Posted - 2015.05.01 00:29:00 - [59] - Quote Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: When you watch another player move in Dust, it isn't really movement as much as it is teleporting one meter at a time. When trying to hit a target at range this is made even more apparent, as "correct" sharp shooting involves fluid movement prediction. Ask a sniper what kind of targets they hit the most and it will usually be someone who is either standing completely still, or running in a very long straight line. Miss a lethal shot, and the target will become aware and start changing directions rapidly which results in micro teleportation. Something nearly impossible to predict, and the kill becomes more about blind luck than skill. In the past, towards the early Uprising patches this problem with movement affected vehicles heavily. They would stutter and teleport about as if you were watching an old claymation film. This problem is currently affecting infantry hard, however. And the better the game performs in terms of frame rate, the more apparent the micro teleportation becomes. No longer can jagged movement be blamed on simply a poor frame rate. I think it's time we addressed this problem and got it some serious attention. I don't get this issue very often. Play on your own region's server and/or upgrade internet. Yes, you do. Don't be derpy. Soldner VonKuechle wrote: Can I just sperg "NETCODE HARDER!" at devs until i get bored of doing that? Sure. Usually banned for being too awesome.


Pages: 1 [2] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.