DUST Search - Mid rang HMG

Stefan Stahl wrote:

I absolutely agree that there need to be medium-to-long range AI options for heavies.

My preferred scenario would be a true assault Forgegun that can be used effectively around the 80 m mark and a 'tactical' HMG that is at home at 60 m range.

Design constraints:
1. An Assault with a light rifle should win against a Sentinel with the same light rifle.
2. A Sentinel with a short, medium or long range heavy weapon should win against a Sentinel with a light rifle of the same range.
3. A Sentinel with a short, medium or long range heavy weapon should win against an Assault with a light rifle of the same range.
4. In CQC an Assault with a short (medium) range light weapon should win against a Sentinel with a medium (long) range heavy weapon.
5. At range an Assault with a medium (long) range light weapon should win against a Sentinel with a short (medium) range heavy weapon.

The idea is that a Sentinel with a heavy weapon wins when he catches a medium suit at the correct range. In turn he has less mobility and is thus going to struggle to dictate the range at which fights happen.

The constraints above can be put into specific design goals:
1 says that the DPS-reduction due to an Assault's strafing must be higher than the hp difference between an Assault and a Sentinel.
2 says that a heavy weapon of a certain range must have a higher applied DPS than the corresponding light weapon.
3 says that a heavy weapon's DPS minus the mitigation due to an Assault's strafing should be higher than the DPS of the corresponding light weapon.
4 says that a short range light weapon must have a higher applied DPS than a long range heavy weapon (including DPS-loss from strafing).
5 says that the effective range of short range heavy weapons must be short enough to have less DPS than medium range light weapons at their optimal.

If you state the problem in terms of short/medium/long range heavy/light weapon DPS, DPS mitigation due to the an Assault's movement advantage and hp difference between Sentinel and Assault suits this is a comparatively simple problem. The biggest issue would be finding the (average) DPS mitigation due to strafing as function of actual suit movement speed.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

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Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6308	Posted - 2015.04.20 15:49:00 - [1] - Quote Going 0/10 in a match this morning where every death was to a rifle before I could get into range to shoot back, made me want to post once again requesting a longer range infantry weapon for Sentinels. We need a viable weapon for more open maps, otherwise Sentinels will be forced to start using rifles again. Assault (Breach) HMG: The Assault HMG needs a Dispersion reduction. It is supposed to be our mid range weapon, but it usually does not hit anything at mid range even when correctly targeted. (Really it should also be renamed to the Breach HMG, with the normal HMG being the Assault, to conform with Rifle conventions.) Tactical HMG: I would also like to see the return of the pre Uprising 1.8 HMG as a Tactical HMG. It had absolutely no Dispersion at all, which made it under powered in CQC, but it was much more effective at longer ranges than the current HMG's and if you were accurate with it you were rewarded for your skill. (Since you can't have a single shot machine gun, Tactical would mean zero dispersion in the case of the HMG, meaning you have to aim precisely.) Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H 327	Posted - 2015.04.20 20:31:00 - [2] - Quote This would be nice. I want this along with a new amarr and gallente heavy weapon but you have to understand that people will be crying if heavies get good weapons Dust 514: Unlimited Scrub Works
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars 347	Posted - 2015.04.20 22:09:00 - [3] - Quote If your on flat ground with enemy having no cover, use a magsec smg, for cover fights, use a bolt pistol
Foundation Seldon Demonite's Legion 957	Posted - 2015.04.20 22:19:00 - [4] - Quote If you're going 0-10 with an HMG on a Sentinel then I'm more inclined to think that you're just bad at the game. There's definitely a problem when it comes to weapon diversity on the Sentinel but I don't believe making the HMG the end all be all weapon for the frame is the solution. Let's lobby for the oft mentioned Heavy variants of current light weapons instead.
Jonny D Buelle Mors Effera 969	Posted - 2015.04.20 22:24:00 - [5] - Quote Georgia Xavier wrote: This would be nice. I want this along with a new amarr and gallente heavy weapon but you have to understand that people will be crying if heavies get good weapons Would like to see an Amarr Scrambler Lance (maybe reskin the Forge gun) and a Plasma Thrower (maybe reskin the HMG). Anyway OP I agree with you. With the way most maps work, us Sentinels are in a bad spot with the open maps. Another solution could be adding more bunkers and cover for us fatmen. And I completely agree that dispersion for the AssHMG needs a good looking at to make it more viable. As far as I understand its suppose to be an AV Variant however you need to be danger close to most vechiles for it to be effective. I find your lack of heaviness... disturbing...
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 9571	Posted - 2015.04.20 22:39:00 - [6] - Quote Since I value your opinion I will take this post seriously. What would keep this from creating an over performing situation? Is there a gap that this new HMG could fill that couldn't be served by an RR, AR, or CR? I appreciate that you tried fixing the heavies when they were OP, so if you feel that there is some changes needed currently, I can respect that. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6333	Posted - 2015.04.21 14:08:00 - [7] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Since I value your opinion I will take this post seriously. What would keep this from creating an over performing situation? Is there a gap that this new HMG could fill that couldn't be served by an RR, AR, or CR? I appreciate that you tried fixing the heavies when they were OP, so if you feel that there is some changes needed currently, I can respect that. It is certainly important to make sure that new HMG variants don't become the new OP FOTM weapon, as happened with the Burst HMG. I am saying that we need an HMG that has more range for open maps such as Manus Peak. But to give an HMG more range without making it good for everything, we need to make it less effective in CQC, so that a Sentinel will have to chose one or the other, just as an Assault Rifle user can switch to a Tac AR on open maps. Assault HMG (Should be called Breach): The Assault HMG was historically effective between 20m and 30m with some capability out to 40m. It was rarely used however because it had much less DPS than the regular HMG in CQC. Many Sentinel Vets, including myself said that all this weapon needed to be useful is a decrease in desperation so that it would be effective between 20m and 40m with some ability to reach out to 50m. The recent change to the Assault HMG did not change the DPS or Dispersion. They increased individual round damage, and decreased the rate of fire, for the same total DPS as it had before. More people are using it now because it sounds cool, and they added some vehicle damage ability, but it is actually less effective against infantry than it was before. When the Assault HMG had a high rate of fire dispersion caused a percentage of the bullets to miss, but with so many bullets the average applied DPS was fairly steady. However with a low rate of fire the high dispersion means that sometimes a lot of the bullets will hit and sometimes a lot of the bullets will miss. So while the overall average DPS is the same, the amount of damage you actually apply in a single encounter in quite random. Sometimes you get lucky, but often it seems like your gun is ineffective. Reduced dispersion would both make the DPS more predictable, and allow it to be effective closer to the optimal range it is listed as having on paper. Tactical HMG: This one is easier to explain. We had this from 1.0 to 1.8 and everyone agreed it was under powered (UP) because having no dispersion at all made it difficult to apply damage as you had to be very precise. The dotted circle on the reticle did not matter, if you did not get the dot in the center on your target you did no damage. However, since it did not have any dispersion, it was effective at the full listed rang of the weapon. If you crouch and aim precisely you could take out distant targets, at the expense of giving up the ability to just spray a corridor in CQC to get a kill. It would be an effective option for Sentinels in more open maps, giving them a fighting chance against rifles over open ground. Also, just as the Tactical Assault Rifle is an imitation of the attributes of the Scrambler Rifle, the Tactical HMG could be the Minmatar answer to an Amarr Heavy Infantry Laser. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6333	Posted - 2015.04.21 14:26:00 - [8] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: If you're going 0-10 with an HMG on a Sentinel then I'm more inclined to think that you're just bad at the game. There's definitely a problem when it comes to weapon diversity on the Sentinel but I don't believe making the HMG the end all be all weapon for the frame is the solution. Let's lobby for the oft mentioned Heavy variants of current light weapons instead. Heavy laser anyone? My reaction time may be slow, and my thumb may twitch when I don't want it to, but I have a clear analytical mind, and an unparallelled ability to identify what is happening and why. Those who follow my work know this. The significance is not that I went 0/10 in a match. This would not surprise a lot of people. The significance is how I died and that I could not identify a way to counter the challenge without switching to a light weapon. The problem that the Sentinel faces is that while it is very effective in tight spaces, it is almost useless in open maps for anti infantry work (unless you are really good with a Forge Gun). The range reduction on the HMGs made this dichotomy even more drastic. I would think that the Heavy Laser would fill the same role as the Tactical HMG I suggested, just as the Scrambler Rifle fills the same role as the Tactical Assault Rifle. That is, good at mid range, but not so good in CQC. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 1109	Posted - 2015.04.21 16:25:00 - [9] - Quote I absolutely agree that there need to be medium-to-long range AI options for heavies. My preferred scenario would be a true assault Forgegun that can be used effectively around the 80 m mark and a 'tactical' HMG that is at home at 60 m range. Design constraints: 1. An Assault with a light rifle should win against a Sentinel with the same light rifle. 2. A Sentinel with a short, medium or long range heavy weapon should win against a Sentinel with a light rifle of the same range. 3. A Sentinel with a short, medium or long range heavy weapon should win against an Assault with a light rifle of the same range. 4. In CQC an Assault with a short (medium) range light weapon should win against a Sentinel with a medium (long) range heavy weapon. 5. At range an Assault with a medium (long) range light weapon should win against a Sentinel with a short (medium) range heavy weapon. The idea is that a Sentinel with a heavy weapon wins when he catches a medium suit at the correct range. In turn he has less mobility and is thus going to struggle to dictate the range at which fights happen. The constraints above can be put into specific design goals: 1 says that the DPS-reduction due to an Assault's strafing must be higher than the hp difference between an Assault and a Sentinel. 2 says that a heavy weapon of a certain range must have a higher applied DPS than the corresponding light weapon. 3 says that a heavy weapon's DPS minus the mitigation due to an Assault's strafing should be higher than the DPS of the corresponding light weapon. 4 says that a short range light weapon must have a higher applied DPS than a long range heavy weapon (including DPS-loss from strafing). 5 says that the effective range of short range heavy weapons must be short enough to have less DPS than medium range light weapons at their optimal. If you state the problem in terms of short/medium/long range heavy/light weapon DPS, DPS mitigation due to the an Assault's movement advantage and hp difference between Sentinel and Assault suits this is a comparatively simple problem. The biggest issue would be finding the (average) DPS mitigation due to strafing as function of actual suit movement speed.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6341	Posted - 2015.04.21 18:00:00 - [10] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: I absolutely agree that there need to be medium-to-long range AI options for heavies. My preferred scenario would be a true assault Forgegun that can be used effectively around the 80 m mark and a 'tactical' HMG that is at home at 60 m range. Design constraints: 1. An Assault with a light rifle should win against a Sentinel with the same light rifle. 2. A Sentinel with a short, medium or long range heavy weapon should win against a Sentinel with a light rifle of the same range. 3. A Sentinel with a short, medium or long range heavy weapon should win against an Assault with a light rifle of the same range. 4. In CQC an Assault with a short (medium) range light weapon should win against a Sentinel with a medium (long) range heavy weapon. 5. At range an Assault with a medium (long) range light weapon should win against a Sentinel with a short (medium) range heavy weapon. The idea is that a Sentinel with a heavy weapon wins when he catches a medium suit at the correct range. In turn he has less mobility and is thus going to struggle to dictate the range at which fights happen. The constraints above can be put into specific design goals: 1 says that the DPS-reduction due to an Assault's strafing must be higher than the hp difference between an Assault and a Sentinel. 2 says that a heavy weapon of a certain range must have a higher applied DPS than the corresponding light weapon. 3 says that a heavy weapon's DPS minus the mitigation due to an Assault's strafing should be higher than the DPS of the corresponding light weapon. 4 says that a short range light weapon must have a higher applied DPS than a long range heavy weapon (including DPS-loss from strafing). 5 says that the effective range of short range heavy weapons must be short enough to have less DPS than medium range light weapons at their optimal. If you state the problem in terms of short/medium/long range heavy/light weapon DPS, DPS mitigation due to the an Assault's movement advantage and hp difference between Sentinel and Assault suits this is a comparatively simple problem. The biggest issue would be finding the (average) DPS mitigation due to strafing as function of actual suit movement speed. I have often suggested that the Assault suit should get +2% damage per Suit level to make them the DPS class. Then the Scout and Sentinel would do high damage with their weapons (Nova Knife/Shotgun for Scout, HMG/Forge Gun for Sentinel) due to the weapon stats, while the Assault suit would be better than Scout/Logi/Sentinel with most light weapons and sidearms. (Scout speed/stealth gives them the advantage over Assault with short range weapons.) Then the Assault would have the DPS advantage, Sentinels the Health advantage, and Scouts the Speed/Stealth advantage. Logi get advantages with equipment. Commandos are sort of a Heavy Assault, so they are similar to Assault accept slower, but having more health. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 807	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:08:00 - [11] - Quote I don't think we should have another variant of the HMG. The standard HMG is for 'cones' of damage at cqc-short range. The burst is good for targeted damage. The Assault needs exactly what Fox, as well as a ton of other heavies, has said in that it needs less dispersion. As the gun would have pinpoint accuracy it would be very weak at cqc range making at very good in its niche, but weak outside of that. Kind of like how the laser is only good at med-long but with a different limiting mechanic. However, if we want to extend heavy range, I think we need different weapon types. The heavy laser, the mortar, stuff like that which can have different mechanics to give them niches without making them all purpose kill in any situation gun.
Powerh8er The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 734	Posted - 2015.04.22 10:23:00 - [12] - Quote I would say the HMG in dust is the worst minigun in the whole history of FPS games. Have you got anymore exploding carrots?
Jebus McKing 1832	Posted - 2015.04.22 11:51:00 - [13] - Quote Why not make a mid-range ForgeGun with Bolt Pistol like firerate, increased clipsize, reduced damage, reduced AV damage percentage, and reduced range, instead of a mid-range HMG? This way you wouldn't have to worry about it being too powerful for CQC and mid-range at the same time. Call it the Burst Forge Gun, make it fire 3 shots. \| GÇÇGÇÇGÇÇ.GÇÇGÇÇGÇÇ \|
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H 346	Posted - 2015.04.22 11:56:00 - [14] - Quote Powerh8er wrote: I would say the HMG in dust is the worst minigun in the whole history of FPS games. It WAS one of the best minigun. but people cried and kept begging for nerfs because this was the only weapons the heavies would use as it's the only anti infantry heavy weapon. Dust 514: Unlimited Scrub Works
Powerh8er The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 735	Posted - 2015.04.22 12:24:00 - [15] - Quote Georgia Xavier wrote: Powerh8er wrote: I would say the HMG in dust is the worst minigun in the whole history of FPS games. It WAS one of the best minigun. but people cried and kept begging for nerfs because this was the only weapons the heavies would use as it's the only anti infantry heavy weapon. Well maybe if it was balanced properly as a long range heavy weapon which would require alot of skill and fun to use. Instead of the no brain short ranged DPS monster we have now, which with all its engangement restrictions and trade-offs is not very fun. Have you got anymore exploding carrots?
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6352	Posted - 2015.04.22 12:36:00 - [16] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: Why not make a mid-range ForgeGun with Bolt Pistol like firerate, increased clipsize, reduced damage, reduced AV damage percentage, and reduced range, instead of a mid-range HMG? This way you wouldn't have to worry about it being too powerful for CQC and mid-range at the same time. Call it the Burst Forge Gun, make it fire 3 shots. Also, yes, A-HMG needs less dispersion! I have nothing against the ForgeGun variant you suggest, but as I would chose a Magsec or SMG over a Bolt Pistol, I would personally be more interested in a mid range HMG, or a Heavy version of the Laser Rifle. As for worrying about an HMG being too powerful for CQC and mid-range, my Tactical HMG suggestion is to bring back the behavior that the HMG had for something like 11 months. We know exactly how strong it would be. It was considered UP for CQC, but it was more effective than current HMG's at mid range, which would be the purpose of bringing it back. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H 346	Posted - 2015.04.22 13:22:00 - [17] - Quote Powerh8er wrote: Georgia Xavier wrote: Powerh8er wrote: I would say the HMG in dust is the worst minigun in the whole history of FPS games. It WAS one of the best minigun. but people cried and kept begging for nerfs because this was the only weapons the heavies would use as it's the only anti infantry heavy weapon. Well maybe if it was balanced properly as a long range heavy weapon which would require alot of skill and fun to use. Instead of the no brain short ranged DPS monster we have now, which with all its engangement restrictions and trade-offs is not very fun. I wouldn't mind stupidly low damage on it as long as I can hit something. Dust 514: Unlimited Scrub Works
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6353	Posted - 2015.04.22 14:09:00 - [18] - Quote A little off topic, but I have created a Sentinel community thread called The Bastion, to be to Sentinels what what The Barbershop is to Scouts, and the Triage Ward is to Logi. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Powerh8er The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 735	Posted - 2015.04.22 15:44:00 - [19] - Quote Georgia Xavier wrote: Powerh8er wrote: Georgia Xavier wrote: Powerh8er wrote: I would say the HMG in dust is the worst minigun in the whole history of FPS games. It WAS one of the best minigun. but people cried and kept begging for nerfs because this was the only weapons the heavies would use as it's the only anti infantry heavy weapon. Well maybe if it was balanced properly as a long range heavy weapon which would require alot of skill and fun to use. Instead of the no brain short ranged DPS monster we have now, which with all its engangement restrictions and trade-offs is not very fun. I wouldn't mind stupidly low damage on it as long as I can hit something. I agree somewhat, but I would also like to able to kill something. Its not hard to balance heavy weapons into a pvp game if you have an ounce of creativity. Its clearly CCP chose the easy way, by nerfing it into the ground pleasing every non heavy player, it has alot of dps yes, but my grandmother can throw a wet plastic bag further than its optimal range and that makes it a sad excuse for a machine gun. Have you got anymore exploding carrots?
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H 346	Posted - 2015.04.22 16:03:00 - [20] - Quote Powerh8er wrote: Georgia Xavier wrote: Powerh8er wrote: Georgia Xavier wrote: Powerh8er wrote: I would say the HMG in dust is the worst minigun in the whole history of FPS games. It WAS one of the best minigun. but people cried and kept begging for nerfs because this was the only weapons the heavies would use as it's the only anti infantry heavy weapon. Well maybe if it was balanced properly as a long range heavy weapon which would require alot of skill and fun to use. Instead of the no brain short ranged DPS monster we have now, which with all its engangement restrictions and trade-offs is not very fun. I wouldn't mind stupidly low damage on it as long as I can hit something. I agree somewhat, but I would also like to able to kill something. Its not hard to balance heavy weapons into a pvp game if you have an ounce of creativity. Its clearly CCP chose the easy way, by nerfing it into the ground pleasing every non heavy player, it has alot of dps yes, but my grandmother can throw a wet plastic bag further than its optimal range and that makes it a sad excuse for a machine gun. They should keep the damage now but with increased range and less dispersion Dust 514: Unlimited Scrub Works

Megaman Trigger Ready to Play 285	Posted - 2015.04.23 00:04:00 - [21] - Quote Georgia Xavier wrote: They should keep the damage now but with increased range and less dispersion Would get nerfed again in 2 months with a triple whammy of heat build-up, DPS and dispersion due to QQ Purifier. First Class.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8186	Posted - 2015.04.23 08:06:00 - [22] - Quote Sentinels should have been made vulnerable to CQC by fast targets. That would have been the greatest equalizer against long range heavy weapons. AV
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game RUST415 739	Posted - 2015.04.23 11:31:00 - [23] - Quote I'm hopeful that the dispersion reduction to the assault HMG, due in the hotfix echo tweaks, will fix the problem. In theory you will have a reasonable medium ranged anti-infantry option for heavies. That also works for anti-vehicle.
Sennina Sovereign ROGUE RELICS 18	Posted - 2015.04.25 16:24:00 - [24] - Quote I really do believe that us Sentinals need an HMG that at least has 1.5x the range of an Assault. I made a post a month back I believe in which I talked about CCP putting in a Charge HMG with Little dispersion and no heat build-up. I'm gonna try to find and post it here when possible for you guys to see.


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