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Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 952	Posted - 2015.04.16 18:07:00 - [1] - Quote Posting this on behalf of someone, I also think it's a great idea and a potentially less difficult implementation compared to full blown EVE style vehicle capacitor. CONTEXT: For awhile now, many vehicle users have wanted to have a capacitor on vehicles to manage active modules and balance them a bit better. Balance itself could be made easier with capacitor as very strong active modules do not need be nerfed into the ground or limited in other ways that may render them un-fun to use. Capacitor is an arguably complex system that DOES NOT cater well to the average FPS player. It's something that is very important in Eve but potentially just an unnecessary level of complexity in Dust. IDEA: What we are proposing is a compromise. Something simple, effective and different that can achieve the desired goal. This idea requires no change in the functionality of current active_duration modules. Every vehicle has a certain number of Battery Cells. This is a number based on the hull. Some vehicles can have less others can have more. Every active module "occupies" a certain number of battery cells when it is turned on. When the module's active duration has run out, or when the active module is manually turned off, those battery cells are liberated for use. This is akin to bandwidth for equipment or even RAM for computer applications. If there are not enough available battery cells to activate a given module, it cannot be turned on. EXAMPLE: Tank with 8 battery cells rolls out onto the field. It is equipped with: Heat Sink (2 cells) FuelInjector (3 cells) Armor HardenerA (5 cells) Armor HardenerB (5 cells) Passive Armor Repair (null) Tank activates Armor Hardener A and drops from 8 cells to 3. Tank activates Heat Sink and drops from 3 to 1 Armor Hardener A active duration runs out, battery cells go from 1 up to 6 Tank activates Armor Hardener B, going from 6 back to 1 Tank manually de-activates Heat Sink after ending engagement with hostile armor, going from 1 to 3 Tank activates Fuel Injector to escape hostile AV with hardener B still on, going from 3 to 0 cells left available for other modules. After escaping into redline and all active modules turn off, all 8 cells are available for use again. The important thing here is that it does not change the active_time and cooldown_time of current modules, meaning less overhead. ______________________________________________________ In the future, I would like to see weapons that can disable X number of battery cells on vehicles, forcing their modules to deactivate if they cannot be sustained. I would also like to see more active modules, the likes of which we cannot implement right now because they would be OP. With this battery cell system, we could easily see the co-existence of active and passive armor repair, as well as shield boosting. THANK YOU FOR READING Know what cannot be known.
Terry Webber Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 661	Posted - 2015.04.16 18:27:00 - [2] - Quote This sounds like a good balancing mechanic but I'll leave it up to the experts. By the way, how much more complex are EVE capacitor systems than what you are proposing?
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 957	Posted - 2015.04.16 18:33:00 - [3] - Quote Terry Webber wrote: This sounds like a good balancing mechanic but I'll leave it up to the experts. By the way, how much more complex are EVE capacitor systems than what you are proposing? Capacitor is a constantly regening pool from which active modules constantly drain power from. There are no cool downs for active modules, as long as you can supply them with power, they will keep running. This creates meta-terms like being "cap-stable" meaning your capacitor regen and depletion are equal, so you can run all your active modules forever (or until someone attacks your capacitor). Alternatively you can create "burst regen" fits that deplete your capacitor but can get you back up to full in moments. Then you'd have to wait a long time to be able to regen again, not because of module cooldown, but because your capacitor would take while to slowly climb back up. I also think capacitor regens at different speeds depending on what level it's at. I think the first 20% is the worst, adding an extra level of sacrifice for depleting it that far. I don't want to misinform you though, I could be wrong and it's been a very long time since I played Eve. Know what cannot be known.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5882	Posted - 2015.04.16 18:58:00 - [4] - Quote Interesting idea to say the least, like you said It's kind of like bandwidth. However I don't think this is exactly a low-hanging fruit so to speak. I'd much rather get rid of these damn passive reps first, see where things go from there, and reevaluate if entirely new systems are needed. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Terry Webber Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 662	Posted - 2015.04.16 19:13:00 - [5] - Quote Thanks for the info, Kaeru. The EVE capacitor sounds a little too complex for DUST. Your proposal is a good compromise and I think I just thought of something a little extra for it. There should be skillbooks to increase a vehicle's capacity, just like there are skillbooks to increase bandwidth for equipment.
Godin Thekiller Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 3095	Posted - 2015.04.16 19:14:00 - [6] - Quote I don't see the point in adding caps into the system, especially since the timers does just that, having their own caps. Also, under your system, you wouldn't be able to turn on all of your modules at once. **** that. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 3013	Posted - 2015.04.16 19:36:00 - [7] - Quote Capacitor isn't hard to understand. Capacitor is basically your mana pool. It regenerates constantly, even when you're using modules. As it gets more empty, it regens faster. Boom, that's how capacitor works. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Terry Webber Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 664	Posted - 2015.04.16 19:59:00 - [8] - Quote That's not what Kaeru is trying to say, Alena. He's saying that the EVE capacitor would demand too many resources to fit into the game.
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 959	Posted - 2015.04.16 20:03:00 - [9] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Interesting idea to say the least, like you said It's kind of like bandwidth. However I don't think this is exactly a low-hanging fruit so to speak. I'd much rather get rid of these damn passive reps first, see where things go from there, and reevaluate if entirely new systems are needed. Why not have both? This is a means to address Rattati's multiple hardener issue. Know what cannot be known.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18284	Posted - 2015.04.16 20:47:00 - [10] - Quote Calculating the number of cells in use mid combat is never going to be a popular method especially when cool downs or actual capacitor wheels might better and more clearly state your actual ability to use modules. However more to the point what needs be understood about any capacitor system is that in both EVE and hopefully in Dust player can or should be able to make Cap Stable fits. What this means is that is modules required low cap consumption to the point where you could keep them, and your weapons active without constraint. GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City

Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 964	Posted - 2015.04.16 20:56:00 - [11] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Calculating the number of cells in use mid combat is never going to be a popular method especially when cool downs or actual capacitor wheels might better and more clearly state your actual ability to use modules. [...] If there are between 5 to 10 cells for any given hull, it would be easy to know well in advance things like: "I can't use both hardeners at the same time" or, "If my hardener and active repair module are both online, I can't use my heatsink" or simply "I have only 2 active modules and I have enough cells for both so I don't need to think about it" I am not meaning to suggest any form of large numbers of cells that would be difficult to handle. Does that make sense? Or am I misunderstanding your argument? Also, Adamance, how do you feel about the current context that Capacitor is simply not for Dust ? Which seems to be the conclusion arrived at everytime we ask for capacitor? Wouldn't this be better than nothing at all? Know what cannot be known.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5883	Posted - 2015.04.16 21:09:00 - [12] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Interesting idea to say the least, like you said It's kind of like bandwidth. However I don't think this is exactly a low-hanging fruit so to speak. I'd much rather get rid of these damn passive reps first, see where things go from there, and reevaluate if entirely new systems are needed. Why not have both? This is a means to address Rattati's multiple hardener issue. Here is my point....we've had multiple hardeners for literally the entire existence of Dust. There has never been a limit, and it has never been a problem until recently. What changed? A move from Active Regen modules to Passive Regen modules. People seem so very set on killing hardeners and restricting them, yet they have never been an issue prior to the original vehicle mass-rework. Much of which happened then was a mistake, and should be reversed. I think that's the key to making things right again, not trying to place arbitrary restrictions on hardeners which have never been an issue until they were paired with passive regen modules. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18285	Posted - 2015.04.16 21:17:00 - [13] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Interesting idea to say the least, like you said It's kind of like bandwidth. However I don't think this is exactly a low-hanging fruit so to speak. I'd much rather get rid of these damn passive reps first, see where things go from there, and reevaluate if entirely new systems are needed. Why not have both? This is a means to address Rattati's multiple hardener issue. Here is my point....we've had multiple hardeners for literally the entire existence of Dust. There has never been a limit, and it has never been a problem until recently. What changed? A move from Active Regen modules to Passive Regen modules. People seem so very set on killing hardeners and restricting them, yet they have never been an issue prior to the original vehicle mass-rework. Much of which happened then was a mistake, and should be reversed. I think that's the key to making things right again, not trying to place arbitrary restrictions on hardeners which have never been an issue until they were paired with passive regen modules. Also an increase of 50% efficiency or greater on the hardeners...... GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5885	Posted - 2015.04.16 21:20:00 - [14] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Also an increase of 50% efficiency or greater on the hardeners...... Sorta. We also lost the passive 10% resistant bonus from skills which roughly translates into the increase resistance on the hardeners. If they want to bring back the 10% from skills and reduce the hardeners back down to 25% and 30% I would not complain. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8124	Posted - 2015.04.16 21:21:00 - [15] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Interesting idea to say the least, like you said It's kind of like bandwidth. However I don't think this is exactly a low-hanging fruit so to speak. I'd much rather get rid of these damn passive reps first, see where things go from there, and reevaluate if entirely new systems are needed. Why not have both? This is a means to address Rattati's multiple hardener issue. Here is my point....we've had multiple hardeners for literally the entire existence of Dust. There has never been a limit, and it has never been a problem until recently. What changed? A move from Active Regen modules to Passive Regen modules. People seem so very set on killing hardeners and restricting them, yet they have never been an issue prior to the original vehicle mass-rework. Much of which happened then was a mistake, and should be reversed. I think that's the key to making things right again, not trying to place arbitrary restrictions on hardeners which have never been an issue until they were paired with passive regen modules. Also an increase of 50% efficiency or greater on the hardeners...... yeah no. AV
Lightning35 Delta514 48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE 265	Posted - 2015.04.16 21:21:00 - [16] - Quote This sounds good. It would definitely be helpful to "nerf" the madrugars. 48th Special Operations Force. Twitter- @48SOF
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18286	Posted - 2015.04.16 21:45:00 - [17] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: This sounds good. It would definitely be helpful to "nerf" the madrugars. However not in a health manner. What is model basically suggests placing an additional limitation on HAV module use rather than providing a frame work on which competitive builds can be constructed. The example given basically institutes a model under which dual module activation is simply not possible. GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18286	Posted - 2015.04.16 21:47:00 - [18] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Interesting idea to say the least, like you said It's kind of like bandwidth. However I don't think this is exactly a low-hanging fruit so to speak. I'd much rather get rid of these damn passive reps first, see where things go from there, and reevaluate if entirely new systems are needed. Why not have both? This is a means to address Rattati's multiple hardener issue. Here is my point....we've had multiple hardeners for literally the entire existence of Dust. There has never been a limit, and it has never been a problem until recently. What changed? A move from Active Regen modules to Passive Regen modules. People seem so very set on killing hardeners and restricting them, yet they have never been an issue prior to the original vehicle mass-rework. Much of which happened then was a mistake, and should be reversed. I think that's the key to making things right again, not trying to place arbitrary restrictions on hardeners which have never been an issue until they were paired with passive regen modules. Also an increase of 50% efficiency or greater on the hardeners...... yeah no. Rough numbers...whatevs 25% -> 40% -> 25% -> 40% Armour 30% -> 60% -> 40% Shield GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 966	Posted - 2015.04.16 22:45:00 - [19] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: This sounds good. It would definitely be helpful to "nerf" the madrugars. However not in a health manner. What is model basically suggests placing an additional limitation on HAV module use rather than providing a frame work on which competitive builds can be constructed. The example given basically institutes a model under which dual module activation is simply not possible. dual activation isew definitely possible with this model. I only gave an example. Don't be closed minded to the idea of DIFFERENT kinds of hardeners. No reason for basic, enhanced and prototype to use the same number of battery cells. Different hulls can also have MORE cells. There can and SHOULD be configurations that can dual harden. This is not about limiting the HAV fitting possibilties, it's adding depth to them. Also, the question I asked in my previous post, do I extract my answer to it as "I'd rather have nothing akin to capacitor at all" ? If that's really the case, I am ready to give up on this idea. Know what cannot be known.
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 966	Posted - 2015.04.16 22:47:00 - [20] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Here is my point....we've had multiple hardeners for literally the entire existence of Dust. There has never been a limit, and it has never been a problem until recently. What changed? A move from Active Regen modules to Passive Regen modules. People seem so very set on killing hardeners and restricting them, yet they have never been an issue prior to the original vehicle mass-rework. Much of which happened then was a mistake, and should be reversed. I think that's the key to making things right again, not trying to place arbitrary restrictions on hardeners which have never been an issue until they were paired with passive regen modules. I don't want to see hardeners nerfed. I want to seem them buffed. In my view there is an 80% resistance hardener at 8 cell use. There are 10% passive hardeners There are active and passive Armor repairers. Try not to use my single example close your mind. Perhaps I shouldn't have given an example at all. :( Know what cannot be known.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5887	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:10:00 - [21] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Here is my point....we've had multiple hardeners for literally the entire existence of Dust. There has never been a limit, and it has never been a problem until recently. What changed? A move from Active Regen modules to Passive Regen modules. People seem so very set on killing hardeners and restricting them, yet they have never been an issue prior to the original vehicle mass-rework. Much of which happened then was a mistake, and should be reversed. I think that's the key to making things right again, not trying to place arbitrary restrictions on hardeners which have never been an issue until they were paired with passive regen modules. I don't want to see hardeners nerfed. I want to seem them buffed. In my view there is an 80% resistance hardener at 8 cell use. There are 10% passive hardeners There are active and passive Armor repairers. Try not to use my single example close your mind. Perhaps I shouldn't have given an example at all. I think you will see massive issues with resistances that high. And I'm not against your idea, don't get me wrong. I just think we should be revert back to an active system that we know worked in the past before we start exploring options to limit functionality of module use. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Godin Thekiller Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 3095	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:13:00 - [22] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: True Adamance wrote: Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: This sounds good. It would definitely be helpful to "nerf" the madrugars. However not in a health manner. What is model basically suggests placing an additional limitation on HAV module use rather than providing a frame work on which competitive builds can be constructed. The example given basically institutes a model under which dual module activation is simply not possible. dual activation isew definitely possible with this model. I only gave an example. Don't be closed minded to the idea of DIFFERENT kinds of hardeners. No reason for basic, enhanced and prototype to use the same number of battery cells. Different hulls can also have MORE cells. There can and SHOULD be configurations that can dual harden. This is not about limiting the HAV fitting possibilties, it's adding depth to them. Also, the question I asked in my previous post, do I extract my answer to it as "I'd rather have nothing akin to capacitor at all" ? If that's really the case, I am ready to give up on this idea. This is just adding unnecessary complexity (or simplicity, if you want to say that active times are simpler) for no reason is the main point. You're seriously trying to shape this silly idea around everything because you want it. Problem is, there's no point in it being here, seeing as we already have cooldowns and active timers. How about we just fix what's broken instead of adding unnecessary ****? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 966	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:18:00 - [23] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: [...] I just think we should be revert back to an active system that we know worked in the past before we start exploring options to limit functionality of module use. Agreed 100% ! Know what cannot be known.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5889	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:34:00 - [24] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: [...] I just think we should be revert back to an active system that we know worked in the past before we start exploring options to limit functionality of module use. Agreed 100% ! Sorta off topic question for you, since you know dropships well. Would Dropships suffer if Light Armor Repairers moved back to an active style? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2953	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:39:00 - [25] - Quote We need real capacitors. Vehicles and dropsuits (dropouts would use this for active equipment). It's really not very complicated, and simpler than trying to manage multiple batteries. There is one pool that regenerates. All active mods use the pool. There are a few nuances in how it regenerates, but they aren't that critical to understand, just don't let it get too low and you're good. It's nearly identical to stamina and people seem to understand that just fine. With capacitors, neutralizers and webs we would finally be able to achieve vehicle balance. Vehicles would be durable, powerful and expensive, but always vulnerable to being "tackled." Best PvE idea ever!
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 968	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:41:00 - [26] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: [...] I just think we should be revert back to an active system that we know worked in the past before we start exploring options to limit functionality of module use. Agreed 100% ! Sorta off topic question for you, since you know dropships well. Would Dropships suffer if Light Armor Repairers moved back to an active style? Not at all ! it would actually be great. Right noww shield dropships have more stayingpower than armor ones, which is backwards. With active armor repping, we could finally see that fixed. Turn on reps -> I am tanking this AV for 10 seconds, and not, i'm going to use my passive reps to barely escape. Know what cannot be known.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5890	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:47:00 - [27] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: [...] I just think we should be revert back to an active system that we know worked in the past before we start exploring options to limit functionality of module use. Agreed 100% ! Sorta off topic question for you, since you know dropships well. Would Dropships suffer if Light Armor Repairers moved back to an active style? Not at all ! it would actually be great. Right noww shield dropships have more stayingpower than armor ones, which is backwards. With active armor repping, we could finally see that fixed. Turn on reps -> I am tanking this AV for 10 seconds, and not, i'm going to use my passive reps to barely escape. I'd like to move to a model where passive regen is quite low with primary HP regen being focused around active model. Armor having a longer duration than shield boosters, but boosters having a higher HP/minute than armor. I was considering leaving Light Armor Repairers as passive as not to screw dropships, but if actives wouldn't be problematic then it may be better to just do that for the sake of continuity. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 10137	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:50:00 - [28] - Quote A lot of things in this game could easily be balanced by capacitors. We said this in the beginning but Blam thought we were too stupid to understand the concept of capacitors. *As long as 5/6 (83%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5890	Posted - 2015.04.16 23:52:00 - [29] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: A lot of things in this game could easily be balanced by capacitors. We said this in the beginning but Blam thought we were too stupid to understand the concept of capacitors. And sadly there just isn't the manpower to implement it now. Rattati has said himself that there are no current plans to implement capacitors. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2955	Posted - 2015.04.17 00:07:00 - [30] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: A lot of things in this game could easily be balanced by capacitors. We said this in the beginning but Blam thought we were too stupid to understand the concept of capacitors. And sadly there just isn't the manpower to implement it now. Rattati has said himself that there are no current plans to implement capacitors. Well if we keep on him, maybe he can see that it's important and try to push it higher in the list of priorities. Perhaps when CCP AquarHEAD finishes up his work with the matchmaker and they get PC figured out. Best PvE idea ever!



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