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Lightning35 Delta514
48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE
255
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Posted - 2015.04.14 14:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
Now, we all know how op the madrugar is. I've seen many people talking about how either it should be nerfed or the Gunnlogis buffed. I feel the Gunnlogis to be balanced with av. It's the madrugar that needs a nerf. Here are my options.
1. Hp is pretty much equal to each other. Hardeners is where the problem lies. The Gunnlogis Hardeners take up damage without being repaired while the madrugars can repair while hardened. Not to mention that armor Hardeners harden and last more than their shield counterpart. How to fix? Make it so that armor Hardeners are crap compared to shield. Shield Hardeners give a 40% bonus. I'm not really sure about armor but I would suggest doing 30% maybe even 25%. It's not fair really that armor can repair while taking less damage than shields that take more damage with no repair. Next, make the time equal. Give the same amount of time for both shield and armor Hardeners.
The end result would be a weaker madrugar and same Gunnlogis.
2. Turrets. A railgun to a madrugar is no match. A blaster will shred Caldari life to hell. NERF THE BLASTER. Before, it was going to be buffed to fight against a hardened Gunnlogi. But that got nerfed. Ccp just flipped it around. They didn't balance it. It was on or the other but they did both. I suggest ONLY nerfing the blaster damage.
3. Speed. Let's be honest. The madrugar is kinda fast for tons of armor. Slightly reduce its speed. It can escape damage to easily. Slow it down a bit.
Total- slightly slower, slightly less resistant, slightly less damage.
48th Special Operations Force.
Twitter- @48SOF
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Everything Dies
Raging Wrath of the Easter Bunny
1330
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Posted - 2015.04.14 16:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Responding to your points:
1. Hardeners aren't the problem, as they're basically the only means any tank has of surviving an AV encounter. Doubly so for Maddys, given the effectiveness of rail/missile weapons against them. I disagree on the timing issue--leave the Maddy with a longer active duration, but reduce the cooldown on the Gunnis. This way, you have Gunnis (who aren't as susceptible to AV) operating more along the lines of a hit-and-run specialist that can shield itself for a quick drive-by before falling back and trying again.
2. The problem was that a double/triple hardened Gunni was all but invincible previously, so CCP made the decision to lower their repair rate while also bumping up the damage on blaster turrets to make sure they could break through the hardener threshold. I'd like to see them make a small increase to the rep rate on Gunnis and make a SMALL tweak to blaster damage; a Gunni firing two hardeners should be able to survive long enough to escape a blaster tank (assuming no other AV/vehicles are involved.)
3. The Madrugar's trade-off for that extra bit of speed is horrible turning/acceleration.
Mike Patton is the greatest singer in music. Proof
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3170
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Posted - 2015.04.14 17:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Now, we all know how op the madrugar is.
It's not OP, it's finally viable once again.
I've seen many people talking about how either it should be nerfed or the Gunnlogis buffed.
The Gunnlogi certainly does need to be improved quite a lot. The answer is never to nerf vehicles.
I feel the Gunnlogis to be balanced with av.
Taka was destroyed by 3 Packed Lai Dai because he was caught cold. Getting caught cold, yeah, you should die. But just 3 AV grenades? That's way out of hand.
It's the madrugar that needs a nerf.
No, it does not.
Here are my options.
Typing as I go.
1. Hp is pretty much equal to each other.
HP for what?
Hardeners is where the problem lies.
Armor hardeners are finally viable after more than a year of not really being able to use them. If you wanted to use one with 3 low slots and terrible fitting, you'd be using a 60mm plate and complex light armor rep. Again, they're viable after a more than a year, they do not need to be nerfed. It's like signing a kid up for baseball, he's actually really really good at it, being heads above the other kids, then not letting him play the next season because he's so much better than the other kids. That's not the way to do things.
The Gunnlogis Hardeners take up damage without being repaired while the madrugars can repair while hardened.
Ask CCP why it was done that way.
Not to mention that armor Hardeners harden and last more than their shield counterpart. How to fix?
Longer duration and shorter cooldown, plus decreased fitting cost for shield. It's a PRO tank, I should be able to fit more than 3 PRO turrets and 1 complex heavy extender.
Make it so that armor Hardeners are crap compared to shield.
Uhh..... again, we already had that for over a year. Again, read what I said above about a kid being really really good at baseball. If hardeners get nerfed, then all Rattati's work was for absolutely nothing, and then we're right back at square one, but worse because we'd have 2 terrible hulls.
Shield Hardeners give a 40% bonus.
They should be 45%-50%.
I'm not really sure about armor but I would suggest doing 30% maybe even 25%.
Do you even tank?
It's not fair really that armor can repair while taking less damage than shields that take more damage with no repair.
Ask CCP the reasoning behind changing armor reps from active to passive, and stopping the constant, slow shield recharge rate.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3170
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Posted - 2015.04.14 17:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
The end result would be a weaker madrugar and same Gunnlogis.
Sounds to me like you want the armor tank nerfed. Why do you want to nerf the armor tank?
2. Turrets. A railgun to a madrugar is no match.
You'd be surprised what a pilot can do.
A blaster will shred Caldari life to hell. NERF THE BLASTER.
It already got nerfed because we could aim with them. Why should it be nerfed again?
Before, it was going to be buffed to fight against a hardened Gunnlogi. But that got nerfed. Ccp just flipped it around.
One hull has always been superior to the other. From Chrome through Uprising 1.6, it was armor. From 1.7 up to Warlords, it was shield. Now it's armor again. I would imagine it's very well balanced on EVE, but they just can't seem to get it right for Dust.
They didn't balance it. It was on or the other but they did both. I suggest ONLY nerfing the blaster damage.
Again, it was nerfed becase we could aim.
3. Speed. Let's be honest. The madrugar is kinda fast for tons of armor. Slightly reduce its speed. It can escape damage to easily. Slow it down a bit.
From what I understand of the lore, Gallente has the fastest ships. There's no reason that shouldn't translate to tanks. Why should speed be nerfed because "they can escape damage too easily?"
Total- slightly slower, slightly less resistant, slightly less damage.
Of course, the only answer is to nerf vehicles. I've been putting up with this for a year and a half. It's beating a dead horse with a stick.
BUFF LAVS. I got one shotted by a militia forge gun. THIS IS TERRIBLE.
Blame the same people that don't use vehicles, who had the sole say in vehicles tweaks for Warlords. They don't use them, yet thought they knew what's best.
Buff lavs enough to withstand 1 proto forge gun shot.
So what PRO forge are we talking about here? Kalaakiota? Ishukone? Wiyrkomi? I listed those in order from weakest to strongest. A railgun Methana used to be able to take one PRO breach shot. Dunno if it can take one volley from ADV swarms, I don't have the armor LAV BPO.
They are too weak. I get that they will now be intended for logi roles, mostly scans and stuff like that, but what's the point if 1 FREAKIN MILITIA FORGEGUN HIT IS ENOUGH TO WIPE THE EXSISTANCE OF A LAV???!!!
We used to have logi LAVs, but they had built-in reps with the option to add on remote vehicle reps. They didn't have built in scanners. The LAVs as they are now are too weak for logis to roll around in.
Dropships are good, exept, let us throw grenades. Many have posted saying that they want to shoot, but that would lead to op mass driver/plasma cannon/ sl ships, or up rifle ships. So? Let us throw grenades. We can kill but not be op because of limited ammo.
It's already insanely difficult to hit a target using a turret in a dropship while it's moving.
Assault dropships are meh. With blasters and stuff, it's hard to use them for infantry and vehicles. If I use a inch is with a blaster to wipe out a tank, I will be blasted away or end up retreating. If I use a python for infantry? Well you guessed it. There's gonna be a blaster tank to shred my double hardened Python.
Worse than meh, they're terrible. Skill stacking required someone with the same SP to make it work, which was teamwork. That got nerfed. Anything we figure out, gets removed.
The forum was being ridiculous, so I had to split my reply in half.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
1351
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Posted - 2015.04.14 17:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lightning35 Delta514 wrote:
1. Hp is pretty much equal to each other. Hardeners is where the problem lies. The Gunnlogis Hardeners take up damage without being repaired while the madrugars can repair while hardened. Not to mention that armor Hardeners harden and last more than their shield counterpart. How to fix? Make it so that armor Hardeners are crap compared to shield. Shield Hardeners give a 40% bonus. I'm not really sure about armor but I would suggest doing 30% maybe even 25%. It's not fair really that armor can repair while taking less damage than shields that take more damage with no repair. Next, make the time equal. Give the same amount of time for both shield and armor Hardeners.
The end result would be a weaker madrugar and same Gunnlogis.
I think you made a good point at the start, but took off in the wrong direction with it (well more like your proposed hardener nerf is over the top. When you say " The Gunnlogis hardeners take damage without being repaired while the madrugars can repair while hardened.
So as the gunnlogi takes damage, it's only buffer to incoming damage is the hardener, while the maddie has a buffer from hardeners AND repairs.
Keeping that in mind, agreed that armor hardeners should not be equal to shield hardeners as the buffer from repairs must be considered. But we had armor hardeners at 25% not so long ago, and it was obvious that it was severely under powered compared to the gunnlogi.
A simple 5% reduction might be enough to bring them more in line, but some number crunching would be in order taking into account reps when considering armor. Additionally, you must consider that armor takes more damage from most sources of AV damage, including I think rails themselves but by a small margin for the latter.
And agreed that armor hardeners shouldn't last so much longer and cool down much faster than shield hardeners. But if they are going to provide less, they should still last longer with a shorter cool down than shield hardeners, but not by the large margin they do at current. Which is exaggerated when you toss in core skills that affect cool down/ duration.
Lightning35 Delta514 wrote:
2. Turrets. A railgun to a madrugar is no match. A blaster will shred Caldari life to hell. NERF THE BLASTER. Before, it was going to be buffed to fight against a hardened Gunnlogi. But that got nerfed. Ccp just flipped it around. They didn't balance it. It was on or the other but they did both. I suggest ONLY nerfing the blaster damage.
I personally don't enjoy how easily blasters shreds shields without a hardener, yet it can be a challenge closing that distance. And even then, with 2 hardeners up it can take a bit to chew through those shields. So I don't know that I can say this is too imbalanced.
Though take a blaster maddie against another blaster maddie and see what happens. Or more like doesn't, as most of those engagements end in stalemates. Again though, I don't know how imbalanced that this is, it may be fine considering blasters work very well at AI.
But if they are going to be good against infantry, they should have a lesser effect to vehicles, meaning they shouldn't just absolutely shred a shield tank like they do.
And as far as speed is concerned, they aren't' much faster and they turn like a brick (maddies), where a shield tank feels light and nimble. So I think that speed is mostly fine atm. Map design plays a bigger part in this than anything, where one would have an advantage over the other.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Onikanabo Brigade
Caldari State
1958
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Posted - 2015.04.14 18:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Good to see tankers give some input on this issue , that's always a plus .
Spkr4theDead people give you $h!t , I don't know why but with what you said ... your cool with me .
Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed . #PubsShouldBeRandomPlayers
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Templar XIII
149
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Posted - 2015.04.14 18:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
In each and every one of these threads I see the same pattern of
neglecting the fact, that armor tanks have a hell of a lot more weapons
he is susceptible to than shield tanks. This HAS to be taken into account:
ARMOR TANK VULNERABLE TO:
MD
Forge Gun
Swarm Launchers
AV grenades [more effective against armor than shields]
Remote Explosives
Assault HMG
Rail Turret
Missile turet
SHIELT TANK VULNERABLE TO:
PlasmaCannon
Flux grenade
Blaster Turret
The armor tank has to defend against more weapons on the battlefield,
and already is slower to react to this due to turning speed and acceleration differences,
therefore should be likewise resilient on a broader field. Permanent, unbroken
reps is one way to give credit to this simple fact.
If hardeners and rep behavior are to be put on equal grounds, so have to
be tank vulnerabilities, mind that.
So, if your cries for nerf do not take these vulnerability discrepancies into account,
you can and should end this thread right here and now. |
Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3173
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Posted - 2015.04.14 18:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Good to see tankers give some input on this issue , that's always a plus .
Spkr4theDead people give you $h!t , I don't know why but with what you said ... your cool with me .
People treat me like trash because I won't compromise on my position. I also break down why ideas are bad, people don't like that either.
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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poison Diego
Vengeance Unbound
RUST415
588
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Posted - 2015.04.14 20:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
just put the hardners down to 35%
it doesnt need a bigger nerf than that...
Nýja Eden er bara byrjunin.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
18236
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Posted - 2015.04.14 20:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lightning35 Delta514 wrote:Now, we all know how op the madrugar is. I've seen many people talking about how either it should be nerfed or the Gunnlogis buffed. I feel the Gunnlogis to be balanced with av. It's the madrugar that needs a nerf. Here are my options.
1. Hp is pretty much equal to each other. Hardeners is where the problem lies. The Gunnlogis Hardeners take up damage without being repaired while the madrugars can repair while hardened. Not to mention that armor Hardeners harden and last more than their shield counterpart. How to fix? Make it so that armor Hardeners are crap compared to shield. Shield Hardeners give a 40% bonus. I'm not really sure about armor but I would suggest doing 30% maybe even 25%. It's not fair really that armor can repair while taking less damage than shields that take more damage with no repair. Next, make the time equal. Give the same amount of time for both shield and armor Hardeners.
The end result would be a weaker madrugar and same Gunnlogis.
2. Turrets. A railgun to a madrugar is no match. A blaster will shred Caldari life to hell. NERF THE BLASTER. Before, it was going to be buffed to fight against a hardened Gunnlogi. But that got nerfed. Ccp just flipped it around. They didn't balance it. It was on or the other but they did both. I suggest ONLY nerfing the blaster damage.
3. Speed. Let's be honest. The madrugar is kinda fast for tons of armor. Slightly reduce its speed. It can escape damage to easily. Slow it down a bit.
Total- slightly slower, slightly less resistant, slightly less damage.
We've had these discussions before OP and the issue with some of your points is that they simply do not , in my mind, provide any real semblance of balance any more so from what we current have. R
I regards to your first statement this would only serve to create an imbalance of eHP as the Gunlogi would be as it was before the more significant beneficiary of the double hardened fits while the armour tank would be relegated to what could see as purely hit and run tanks.
I would like to point out some things however for perspective. If I am not mistaken Shield HAV have higher potential eHP's than they have had in previous builds however their fitting allocations have been changed due to what I suppose CCP Rattati perceived as exploitation of mechanics, the Blaster is the Gallentean answer to the Rail and Missiel Turrets the latter of which is still a very poten anti [armour] tank weapon, and the Gallentean battle doctrine favours speed and raw close quarters stopping power their tanks should be mobile platforms and their weapons high DP.
However that all being said there are issues within the HAV sphere. Shield HAV are having a rough time due to the combination of prolific armour repairs of active level that are constant and passive, dual stacking armour hardeners is significantly easier and just as harmful as it was in the previous build [maybe more so due to insane passive reps], and the Shield HP booster is not reliable enough [perhaps introduce a 1 second invulnerability as the fullness of the charge takes effect].
I still wish to point out however that there is a way to bring back the old Armour Repairers as active modules which allows us to keep the current rep values however for a lesser period of time.
GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥
-The Nameless City
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
1352
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Posted - 2015.04.14 21:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Good to see tankers give some input on this issue , that's always a plus .
Spkr4theDead people give you $h!t , I don't know why but with what you said ... your cool with me .
People treat me like trash because I won't compromise on my position. I also break down why ideas are bad, people don't like that either.
Part of critical thinking is compromising on some points. Just because you take a position, it doesn't make it right. Deeper thinking will lead to greater solutions. Continually calling tanks weak and ever calling for buffs won't help the current situation. A breakdown of why, backed by facts. Not your limited observations that are skewed because of your tanking perspective.
Sometimes, people on the other side do make valid points, that must be taken into consideration, and not swept under the rug because it doesn't match with your ideology.
Keep that in mind boy.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
3176
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Posted - 2015.04.15 01:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Good to see tankers give some input on this issue , that's always a plus .
Spkr4theDead people give you $h!t , I don't know why but with what you said ... your cool with me .
People treat me like trash because I won't compromise on my position. I also break down why ideas are bad, people don't like that either. Part of critical thinking is compromising on some points. Just because you take a position, it doesn't make it right. Deeper thinking will lead to greater solutions. Continually calling tanks weak and ever calling for buffs won't help the current situation. A breakdown of why, backed by facts. Not your limited observations that are skewed because of your tanking perspective. Sometimes, people on the other side do make valid points, that must be taken into consideration, and not swept under the rug because it doesn't match with your ideology. Keep that in mind boy.
That's not at all critical thinking. That's going along to get along. Pointing out why things are bad is critical thinking. Pointing out the weaknesses of tanks is critical thinking. Telling those that don't want to put in any effort, simply sneezing in the direction of a tank and blowing it up is doing them a favor. Telling them how to blow us up is putting our shoes in the shoes of AV, which probably a lot of us have had at some point, is critical thinking on how to make our time in a tank hell.
Why should I compromise with those that already work so hard to make vehicles useless, as well as bullying me and actually disobeying the TOS?
Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
18251
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Posted - 2015.04.15 01:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Good to see tankers give some input on this issue , that's always a plus .
Spkr4theDead people give you $h!t , I don't know why but with what you said ... your cool with me .
People treat me like trash because I won't compromise on my position. I also break down why ideas are bad, people don't like that either. Part of critical thinking is compromising on some points. Just because you take a position, it doesn't make it right. Deeper thinking will lead to greater solutions. Continually calling tanks weak and ever calling for buffs won't help the current situation. A breakdown of why, backed by facts. Not your limited observations that are skewed because of your tanking perspective. Sometimes, people on the other side do make valid points, that must be taken into consideration, and not swept under the rug because it doesn't match with your ideology. Keep that in mind boy. That's not at all critical thinking. That's going along to get along. Pointing out why things are bad is critical thinking. Pointing out the weaknesses of tanks is critical thinking. Telling those that don't want to put in any effort, simply sneezing in the direction of a tank and blowing it up is doing them a favor. Telling them how to blow us up is putting our shoes in the shoes of AV, which probably a lot of us have had at some point, is critical thinking on how to make our time in a tank hell. Why should I compromise with those that already work so hard to make vehicles useless, as well as bullying me and actually disobeying the TOS?
Nor is critical thinking dismissive. However I think many of us have erred in expressing what we believe tanks should be like. All I want for tanks is to see them go back to pre Uprising 1.7 days. They were fun to use then.
GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥
-The Nameless City
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