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Foehammerr
Dead Man's Game RUST415
157
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Posted - 2015.03.21 05:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
Since pretty much launch day, I've been hearing about how armor tanking is exponentially superior to shield tanking. While in some cases this may be true, (especially in the case of squads based around logistical support) the some issue lies in most people don't know HOW to shield tank and assume that armor and Shield work the same exact way and don't know the doctrine of the race for their specific suit. However, there are some serious issues that are causing shield tanking to be not quite what it's supposed to be.
In a previous thread , I a dressed this. One thing I didn't mention, was a doing infantry shield transfer tools, but this is already a know issue. The answer is right in front of us, but we don't want to open our eyes.
Also, while I'm here, want to propose this: As we all know, meta hopping is a long standing g issue, especially with rifle balance. This leads to people skilling one way, but as soon as some fotm Is discovered, they get that weapon and put it on their suit as if nothing happened. I propose that the assault frame bonus be changed from fitting bonus for all light weapons to only racial weapons. This would mitigate meta hopping and maintains lore accuracy. You could still fit non racials, there's just less incentive to do so and increases the risk of sunk cost for chasing FOTM, and makes people really think about how they want to fit, and whether or not fitting out of racial doctrine is worth it.
How it should be laid out: Gallente - Light/sidearm Hybrid (all) Caldari - Light/sidearm Rail/Missile Amarr - light sidearm laser Minmatar - Light/sidearm projectile/explosive/missile
Hopefully, if I pray hard enough, the #BasedDev will respond.
#TYBR
De Opresso Liber
Beta Vet since 2/5/2013
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7691
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Posted - 2015.03.21 07:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Armor is not exponentially better.
most players adhere to the more HP>all theory of fitting.
Shields are excellent skirmishers and long range combatants. The weapons racially matched to shields tend to have good range, excellent optimal damage and generous falloff.
Weapons assigned racially to armor tend to be harder to employ, have shorter range or significantly worse falloff stats and are intended for use on a shorter range or limited movement platform.
Shields in turn, when running against armor past 40 meters, tend to hold an advantage, being able to duck and recover much more rapidly. This is not a brawler trait. It was never intended to be a brawler trait.
However the anemic ranges of almost all weapons and the extreme prevalence of circumstance which encourages CQC play absolutely dictate that brawling is the meta.
It wasn't until after release when armor received a few key buffs that shields fell out of favor.
Armor is not superior. It is easier to use, and thus doesn't require as much tactical awareness.
Does that mean shields are the most awesome thing?
No. But I'd start with removing extender penalties before trying to plug in multiple or severe buffs. Having the pendulum full swing yhe other way is a horrendous idea.
AV
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LudiKure ninda
Dead Man's Game RUST415
256
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Posted - 2015.03.21 11:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
The problem with shield tanks is that a lot of people are tryng to use it as a brawler... and then when Madrugar gv.0 with Ion Cannon and a Dmg mod comes in and wreck you under 5 seconds,you call 4 a armor tank nerf and shield tank buff.
NO
Shield tank should be more a sniping fit,..if you are using blaster on a shield tank youre douing it wrong.. Railgun with dmg mods is way to go on a shield tank. Just like infantry,shield tanks need to use RANGE. in theyr advantage and cover.
If you get wrecked by a blaster maddy close range its your fault not using gunny 4 what is designed to do. And that is long range combat. Shield tanks are 4 players that know how too use cover and how to position yourself to hawe advantage, so you can land 3,4 dmg modded Particle Cannon rounds into that maddy,without giving him chance to escape.
My 2x Complex Dmg mod and Heat Sink Gunny can take out any vehicle on the field with 2-4 shots.
But only problem is that most of the time you will be sitting in your redline,due to a low health,and massive AV usage in every Pub match.
( -í° -£-û -í°)
Send your isk here!
Fully maxed tank pilot.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7693
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Posted - 2015.03.21 11:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Infantry. We aren't discussing Gv.0 vs. Cv.0
The HAV issue on shields is the fitting nerf.
We're discussing the systemic imbalance between infantry shields and armor. The imbalance is not as wide as a lot of people claim but it does exist.
AV
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
203
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Posted - 2015.03.21 13:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
sHP: low HP, high recharge. Recharge delay. aHP: high HP, low repair. No repair delay.
Good shield tanking is abusing high recharge, by lowering the delay as much as possible whilst adding a small buffer to have acceptable eHP.
HOWEVER. To be an effective "true" shield tank, almost all your slots are dedicated to survival. Unlike armor, which can have some leeway in aHP mods because of high eHP. This is why armor tanking is the preferred fit, it's easier to pull off.
I only have a CalAss so, i can't talk about armor fits as clear as shield fits.
But I'll get to the point. There are 3 ways people shield tank in the game: -Buffer tank (mostly/all extends, lower recharge with regs as much as you can. High sHP offsets low sHP/s for fit)
-Recharge tank (half extends to give acceptable buffer, half energ/recharge to give high sHP/s. REGS are a must to abuse the sHP/s as much as possible. Very high sHP/s offsets low sHP per fit. Rarest fits to see. (best tank style IMHO, cover when low on shields, 2.05 seconds later (two comp regulators) 70+ sHP/s is pouring in.))
-incorrect tank. aHP is high. while either having a recharge tank/partial buffer fitted. This is simply wrong. I use this fit when there is a reptool in squad, makes me use my triage hives after all.
Oddly, brick tanking works. Sadly only for a few engagements, and not at close range at all (no speed to move with the penalties of plates.) Also, using one reactive + one regulator is the best way to "hybrid" tank (but duel tanking is not really a good thing)
But to be so thoughtful of your sHP is something people don't want to do. also, knowing when "you're on armor you've died basically" doesn't support the lower eHP shield tank suits, nevertheless.
(To be similar to the OP, I'll talk tools) As for tools for shields, i want it to be like the reptool. IMPROVING THE FLAW OF THE TANK.
See how reptools increase the aHP/s? That's the flaw of the tanking style; Low HP/s. Shields have the higher end of the HP/s for the main tank. What the flaw is, is low HP.
So i thought of shield tools increases the sHP by X amount and lowering the delay by Y amount.
Essentially a hardener per se, for example:
I have 425 sHP, and 75 sHP/s. I have around 4s delay. Shield tool arrives. +50% sHP, -25% delay. Now when tethered, i have 637 sHP, 75 sHP/s, 3s delay.
Let's go to a full buffer tank. It's proto suit, all mods for shields.
I have 707 sHP, 30 sHP/s, 1.6 second delay. Shield tool arrives. +50% sHP, -25% delay. Now I have 1060 sHP, 30 sHP/s, 1.2 second delay.
"1060 sHP!? That's insane" No, it's a big number but look at what I got? A delay. You can shoot me and stop the recharge. Plus it's only 30 sHP/s... One bullet from anything will take out my recovered sHP anyways :/ Plus i just pulled the numbers out of nowhere just for the sake of discussion.
Cool cool?
Entering the void and becoming wind.
Message for 1v1 air to air
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7695
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Posted - 2015.03.21 13:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Funny my sentinel Ck.0 only has 1200-1300 HP. Only slightly higher than that fit you describe.
And yet it'll take lot more effort to kill because it abuses the ever-loving sh*t out of regen and recovery.
Hell my quafe C-1 with no armor mods tends to live longer than most bricktank calassaults. Even with the crappy militia rail BPO.
And no, not because I'm good with assaults. That's actually an amusing thought though.
AV
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Foehammerr
Dead Man's Game RUST415
160
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Posted - 2015.03.21 13:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Infantry. We aren't discussing Gv.0 vs. Cv.0
The HAV issue on shields is the fitting nerf.
We're discussing the systemic imbalance between infantry shields and armor. The imbalance is not as wide as a lot of people claim but it does exist. As someone who strictly uses only Gallente doctrine setups, and religiously armor tanks (with only two exceptions), I know for myself that there's isn't a huge difference between shields and armor. However as stated above and as you know, there are a few problems that need to be fixed with shields that shouldn't have been a problem in the first place.
Now, with the with what I'm proposing, I'm not saying the stats for these should be extreme as turning the current recharge rates from flat numbers to percentages, that would be ridiculous, and cause the pendulum mentality that happened with the HMG.
Plus it would be counter intuitive to hurt myself as someone who spouts as much Gallente Propaganda as Sgt.Kirk and the rest of the GIDF if I severely buffed shield tanked suits like that. I'm just trying to solve this in a fair and unbiased manner.
De Opresso Liber
Beta Vet since 2/5/2013
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Doc DDD
TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback
420
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Posted - 2015.03.21 13:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
shields - kiting , hiding
armor - kiting , hiding , pushing , wp padding logis , brawling , holding the point , flanking , posting on forums about how shields and armor are balanced. |
Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance
1950
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Posted - 2015.03.21 13:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Armor is not exponentially better.
most players adhere to the more HP>all theory of fitting.
Shields are excellent skirmishers and long range combatants. The weapons racially matched to shields tend to have good range, excellent optimal damage and generous falloff.
Weapons assigned racially to armor tend to be harder to employ, have shorter range or significantly worse falloff stats and are intended for use on a shorter range or limited movement platform.
Shields in turn, when running against armor past 40 meters, tend to hold an advantage, being able to duck and recover much more rapidly. This is not a brawler trait. It was never intended to be a brawler trait.
However the anemic ranges of almost all weapons and the extreme prevalence of circumstance which encourages CQC play absolutely dictate that brawling is the meta.
It wasn't until after release when armor received a few key buffs that shields fell out of favor.
Armor is not superior. It is easier to use, and thus doesn't require as much tactical awareness.
Does that mean shields are the most awesome thing?
No. But I'd start with removing extender penalties before trying to plug in multiple or severe buffs. Having the pendulum full swing yhe other way is a horrendous idea.
ScR has almost the same (only 5m less) and proto ScR does over 100 damage with proficiency 5 not including the damage mods that seem to infest all Amarr Assaults. No matter what, shield is nothing in front of an ScR. Many times I have gone up against Proto Cal Assaults with 600 shields ect. and they get disintegrated by my standard ScR. As long as ScR and AScR exist, shield will suck.
No weapon does as much DPS to armor as an ScR does ti shield.
"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.
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Sir Dukey
G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance
1950
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Posted - 2015.03.21 13:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Shamarskii Simon wrote:sHP: low HP, high recharge. Recharge delay. aHP: high HP, low repair. No repair delay.
Good shield tanking is abusing high recharge, by lowering the delay as much as possible whilst adding a small buffer to have acceptable eHP.
HOWEVER. To be an effective "true" shield tank, almost all your slots are dedicated to survival. Unlike armor, which can have some leeway in aHP mods because of high eHP. This is why armor tanking is the preferred fit, it's easier to pull off.
I only have a CalAss so, i can't talk about armor fits as clear as shield fits.
But I'll get to the point. There are 3 ways people shield tank in the game: -Buffer tank (mostly/all extends, lower recharge with regs as much as you can. High sHP offsets low sHP/s for fit)
-Recharge tank (half extends to give acceptable buffer, half energ/recharge to give high sHP/s. REGS are a must to abuse the sHP/s as much as possible. Very high sHP/s offsets low sHP per fit. Rarest fits to see. (best tank style IMHO, cover when low on shields, 2.05 seconds later (two comp regulators) 70+ sHP/s is pouring in.))
-incorrect tank. aHP is high. while either having a recharge tank/partial buffer fitted. This is simply wrong. I use this fit when there is a reptool in squad, makes me use my triage hives after all.
Oddly, brick tanking works. Sadly only for a few engagements, and not at close range at all (no speed to move with the penalties of plates.) Also, using one reactive + one regulator is the best way to "hybrid" tank (but duel tanking is not really a good thing)
But to be so thoughtful of your sHP is something people don't want to do. also, knowing when "you're on armor you've died basically" doesn't support the lower eHP shield tank suits, nevertheless.
(To be similar to the OP, I'll talk tools) As for tools for shields, i want it to be like the reptool. IMPROVING THE FLAW OF THE TANK.
See how reptools increase the aHP/s? That's the flaw of the tanking style; Low HP/s. Shields have the higher end of the HP/s for the main tank. What the flaw is, is low HP.
So i thought of shield tools increases the sHP by X amount and lowering the delay by Y amount.
Essentially a hardener per se, for example:
I have 425 sHP, and 75 sHP/s. I have around 4s delay. Shield tool arrives. +50% sHP, -25% delay. Now when tethered, i have 637 sHP, 75 sHP/s, 3s delay.
Let's go to a full buffer tank. It's proto suit, all mods for shields.
I have 707 sHP, 30 sHP/s, 1.6 second delay. Shield tool arrives. +50% sHP, -25% delay. Now I have 1060 sHP, 30 sHP/s, 1.2 second delay.
"1060 sHP!? That's insane" No, it's a big number but look at what I got? A delay. You can shoot me and stop the recharge. Plus it's only 30 sHP/s... One bullet from anything will take out my recovered sHP anyways :/ Plus i just pulled the numbers out of nowhere just for the sake of discussion.
Cool cool?
Armor suits don't necessarily have low rep rate. An Amarr Assault with 750 armor can have 20 armor repair.
"Skill for thee but no skill for me" so is the saying of the swarm infantry.
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Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
203
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Posted - 2015.03.21 14:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:Shamarskii Simon wrote:sHP: low HP, high recharge. Recharge delay. aHP: high HP, low repair. No repair delay.
Good shield tanking is abusing high recharge, by lowering the delay as much as possible whilst adding a small buffer to have acceptable eHP.
HOWEVER. To be an effective "true" shield tank, almost all your slots are dedicated to survival. Unlike armor, which can have some leeway in aHP mods because of high eHP. This is why armor tanking is the preferred fit, it's easier to pull off.
I only have a CalAss so, i can't talk about armor fits as clear as shield fits.
But I'll get to the point. There are 3 ways people shield tank in the game: -Buffer tank (mostly/all extends, lower recharge with regs as much as you can. High sHP offsets low sHP/s for fit)
-Recharge tank (half extends to give acceptable buffer, half energ/recharge to give high sHP/s. REGS are a must to abuse the sHP/s as much as possible. Very high sHP/s offsets low sHP per fit. Rarest fits to see. (best tank style IMHO, cover when low on shields, 2.05 seconds later (two comp regulators) 70+ sHP/s is pouring in.))
-incorrect tank. aHP is high. while either having a recharge tank/partial buffer fitted. This is simply wrong. I use this fit when there is a reptool in squad, makes me use my triage hives after all.
Oddly, brick tanking works. Sadly only for a few engagements, and not at close range at all (no speed to move with the penalties of plates.) Also, using one reactive + one regulator is the best way to "hybrid" tank (but duel tanking is not really a good thing)
But to be so thoughtful of your sHP is something people don't want to do. also, knowing when "you're on armor you've died basically" doesn't support the lower eHP shield tank suits, nevertheless.
(To be similar to the OP, I'll talk tools) As for tools for shields, i want it to be like the reptool. IMPROVING THE FLAW OF THE TANK.
See how reptools increase the aHP/s? That's the flaw of the tanking style; Low HP/s. Shields have the higher end of the HP/s for the main tank. What the flaw is, is low HP.
So i thought of shield tools increases the sHP by X amount and lowering the delay by Y amount.
Essentially a hardener per se, for example:
I have 425 sHP, and 75 sHP/s. I have around 4s delay. Shield tool arrives. +50% sHP, -25% delay. Now when tethered, i have 637 sHP, 75 sHP/s, 3s delay.
Let's go to a full buffer tank. It's proto suit, all mods for shields.
I have 707 sHP, 30 sHP/s, 1.6 second delay. Shield tool arrives. +50% sHP, -25% delay. Now I have 1060 sHP, 30 sHP/s, 1.2 second delay.
"1060 sHP!? That's insane" No, it's a big number but look at what I got? A delay. You can shoot me and stop the recharge. Plus it's only 30 sHP/s... One bullet from anything will take out my recovered sHP anyways :/ Plus i just pulled the numbers out of nowhere just for the sake of discussion.
Cool cool? Armor suits don't necessarily have low rep rate. An Amarr Assault with 750 armor can have 20 armor repair.
Well, no. That's good for an armor fit imo but look at shields? I get 75.1 sHP/s at 442 sHP on an advanced calAss. 750 @ 20/s or 440 @ 75/s
It shows what I mean by high HP offsets low recovery. while low HP offsets high recovery.
If that was a shield fit would you say that's low??
(i agree tho, 20 aHP/s is really good for that side of the tank)
Entering the void and becoming wind.
Message for 1v1 air to air
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7695
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Posted - 2015.03.21 14:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:
ScR has almost the same (only 5m less) and proto ScR does over 100 damage with proficiency 5 not including the damage mods that seem to infest all Amarr Assaults. No matter what, shield is nothing in front of an ScR. Many times I have gone up against Proto Cal Assaults with 600 shields ect. and they get disintegrated by my standard ScR. As long as ScR and AScR exist, shield will suck.
No weapon does as much DPS to armor as an ScR does ti shield.
I am proficiency 3 on scrams. Believe it or not I'm well aware of how they work. I'm also a fan of shooting scram users from 70m.
If I'm brawling I run gallente or a sentinel. When I'm not in the mood to brawl I run calassault. When run at their intended long ranges they tear ass across gallente and amarr dropsuits.
I use amarr assaults when I'm in the mood to kill people with charged viziam shots.
AV
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