also when your shield are 0 until you have 1 or more shield value nothing should reset your shield delay

You can add buffer tanking with full plates on the list of armor advantages too cause thats the case when a decent logi is in the squad. Reptool+buffer tank= extremely hard to kill.

This post is shockingly objective and constructive. Are you certain that you are actually a DUST player?

On a more serious note, while I have zero issue with your assertions, they are well thought out and they touch on actual issues, I must add that the community mindset on how fittings should be optimal is not compatible with the systrengths of shield tanking.

Part of it is that a few things need adjusting. The other part of it is armor tanking is just easier and takes less thought. I say this as a habitual sentinel who also runs all four assaults.

As far as shields vs. Ferros: sshields have a regen advantage upping the HP of extenders isn't the answer IMHO. It would swing the pendulum back a little too hard.

However, the extender penalty came before some of the better refinements to armor were a thing. It might be time to consider lifting them.

Kincats should be made equivalent to damage mods. Mobility is king with shields. Lowering the cost of kincats will not make the wiggle wiggle strafe detection dumbassery worse because kincats do not add to base speed, which is the attribute that dictates backpedal and strafe speed.

Shield threshold should be set to the lowest base value individual bullet in the game so a single stray round out of optimal will not screw you. But a stray shot from optimal can.

Jerking with range invariably gets people crying because if an assault can fit it so can an HMG/forge sentinel.

All in all I'm on board with you here.

Could you elaborate on your opinion of range mods? For whatever reason I see them as equal and opposite to damage mods, as weapons are semi balanced on a damage versus range mindset. They are also a perfect alternative to armor in my opinion, much like damage is an alternative to shields.

I need only point to the number of people who absolutely screamed about how unfair it is that HMGs could kill them outside 20m over the last few weeks alone. Now apply the lesson to all the weapons.

...ish. this doesn't have the same effect on vehicles as it does on dropsuits.

At all.

I agree but I would like to see the rep tool + armor tanking remain an armor tanking thing. Shield repping seems counter intuitive when shields should be flanking or staying at distance. Plus I don't want to see the tank styles become similar, I. E. Rep and push straight towards the objective.

I think the answer is to give shields enough benefits that shields = armor even with the rep tool + buffer tank strategy.

Are you crazy? If you make a solo shield suit better then a fully plated suit which aswell gets repped then thats imbalance cause that would mean 1 player>2. Getting a shield logi would set the field for fair play.

sorry is this not an infantry thread?

After making a post in GD and listening to people's opinion on the state of infantry shield tanking, I've come up with a list of reasons why armor > shield, with possible solutions. This is of course if you believe that armor > shield, as the general consensus seemed to be in the previous thread I made.

Shield damage threshold - everyone seemed to agree that shields should have a threshold in which any damage below the threshold would not stop recharge or reset delay. I believe this number should be in the 5 - 10 hp range. All shield tankers know how annoying it is to jump from a ledge that's a bit too high or to take a stray SMG bullet from 80 meters and have your delays reset.

Ferroscales - ferroscale plates offer more HP and are cheaper to fit the shield extenders with zero drawback. This is a huge balance issue. Sure shields recharge on their own and Ferroscales do not, but in order to fit a proper shield tank you have to sacrifice slots for regulators and rechargers as necessary for an, on average, lower hp pool. Point being is a shield tanker must sacrifice just as many, If not more, slots for non hp mods as armor tankers do, therefore having a natural regen is a rather mute point. Ferroscales > extenders, simple as that. Perhaps consider a small speed reduction or increased capacity cost for ferros.

Damage mods vs Kincats - armor tankers have damage mods which can be stacked to great effect. Shield tankers could in theory use speed as a weapon. Certainly speed is a valuable attribute for shield tanking unless you plan on sitting at range an entire match which, as highlighted in my previous thread, does not typically help to win matches. (as a side point it has been stated that maps and objectives are just more suited for armor tanking). However back on topic, damage mods are much easier to fit than Kincats when considering the capacity cost of shield extenders in PG and the PG limitations of shield based suits. I suggest several solutions. Reduce kincat or extenders PG requirements, and/ or add a new low slot module which increases weapons effective range.

Tl;dr
Shield damage threshold = a must
Ferroscales are OP
Kincats and extenders use too much PG / armor tankers have a monopoly on the damage vs range curve of weapons.

I agree that basic and adv kinkats need a PG cost decrease, otherwise they are not worth using compared to the proto kinkat module.

I agree with everything stated in the OP, but have one addition.

Flux grenades need to be changed, they are simply unfair to shield users.

Tl;dr
Shield damage threshold = a must

Ferroscales are OP

Kincats and extenders use too much PG.

armor tankers have a monopoly on the damage vs range curve of weapons.

Snip

you say ferroscales were trash because they didnt give enough HP for the PG / CPU needed.
Have you looked at shield extenders lately?
Ill save you the trouble, they take more fittings and give less HP. They also cost more ISK too so thats nice.


Also the RR does not have the highest alpha in its class, both the TAR and SCR do more, even ignoring the SCR charged shot. I could argue that one burst is technically still alpha, meaning burt AR and CR also have higher alpha. Infact im going to have to check the numbers but i have a suspicion breach AR does more damage per shot, too
Just because rails have 'high alpha' doesnt mean they dont need damage mods - high alpha does not mean high (or even decent) DPS.
You say that gallente have poor range so they have to use damage mods which in no way fix their bad range, yet caldari which have poor damage do not need to use damage mods.
Additionally, you state that you can armor tank minmatar suits and stack damage. This is true but still leaves the caldari with low speed, low HP and pathetic damage.

Since youre unfamilliar with amarr ill break it down for you
in EVE they have lots of lows and usually armor resists, so they can stack armor and damage pretty well at the same time, though increasing one will decrease the other.
Meanwhile in DUST, they can tank as much as they want, stack damage on an already high damage weapon (that already has high DPS) and not have to sacrifice any DPS.

The point is shields simply dont measure up to armor in many ways, and a simple damage threshold isnt going to solve much other than making shields slightly better at rooftop camping (which, by the way, can still be countered by armor suits because they can stack myofibs and armor)

Ferroscales - ferroscale plates offer more HP and are cheaper to fit the shield extenders with zero drawback. This is a huge balance issue. Sure shields recharge on their own and Ferroscales do not, but in order to fit a proper shield tank you have to sacrifice slots for regulators and rechargers as necessary for an, on average, lower hp pool. Point being is a shield tanker must sacrifice just as many, If not more, slots for non hp mods as armor tankers do, therefore having a natural regen is a rather mute point. Ferroscales > extenders, simple as that. Perhaps consider a small speed reduction or increased capacity cost for ferros.

You are looking at it wrong. There is a difference between an active tank and a passive tank. A passive tank is RAW HP. An active tank has rechargers and regulators to make it rebuild quicker.

The Ferroscale falls under the Passive tanking mode as do Shield Extenders.

Reactive Plating and Rechargers, Regulators fall under the Active tanking mode and as such your comparison is flawed.

Well you can call it what you want and perhaps you are right.

Doesn't change my opinion that ferroscales are better than shield extenders in a simple raw comparison. More HP, easier to fit. Couple this with the clunky feel of shield delays and recharging (damage threshold is part of this) and the result, in my humble opinion, is part of the reason armor is more competitive than shields.

Look at the cost for active modules as I mentioned previously, thats where the comparison can gain traction if there is any, if a person fits feros they need reps, so armor repair or the Reactive plating, otherwise all that equals the armor tank you describe is a shield tank no rechargers or regulators, they cannot be compared. A+B does not equal C+C.

The damage threshold is another matter entirely, and for someone who runs both armor and shield as well as bottle tanked suits I can say without a doubt that some of what you say regarding damage threshold strikes a chord but I would be concerned that setting it too high would result in other balance issues, no more than 10 hp threshold would be ok.

EDIT: No, just checked some numbers and remembered why that is there, it prevents Shields from being OP.

Could you elaborate on these numbers you checked? I was recently thinking of the threshold being like 5 or less. Something so that jumps from a meter too high or an SMG round from 80 meters doesn't completely reset your delays. I'll try to do some controlled tests in actual game play of scenarios which annoy me when I'm shield tanking. Hopefully I can find a reasonable threshold level.

Anyway you seem to know your stuff, I'd like to tease ideas out of you. I'm just here stating my opinion (armor > shields) and my ideas. I honestly just want balance.

Yep I totally get what you are saying however how does this add up when you start considering the rep tool and rep hives?

Do you consider armor and shields to be balanced?

I have a quick question.

Does anyone know if the total number of hitpoints (HP) are the same for dropsuits within a class? For example, can the caldari sentinel achieve the exact same amount of total HP as the Amarr sentinel. Just divided seperately between shield and armour obviously, based on racial lore?

I've never bothered to check this, but I was just wondering whether the suits take this kind of balance into account.