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Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
2206
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Posted - 2015.03.20 10:36:00 -
[61] - Quote
Izlare Lenix wrote:The lack of aim assist and lower weapon damage during beta produced a much longer TTK than we have now.
And fights back then were more satisfying and more fun. Sometimes it took two clips to kill someone and you felt like you earned that kill. Or you managed to get away from several reds instead of insta dying to them.
Today's TTK is stupidly easy and boring. Killing someone or dying in a fraction of a second is not enjoyable. It's not satisfying or challenging and it sure as hell is not fun. Twitch shooters never are.
Headshots were also much more important, ammo conservation was critical, teamwork was more important and use of cover and aim trumped twitch reflex.
Chromosome was the only iteration of this game that ever felt balanced and I want it back.
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
I GÖú Puppies
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
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KA24DERT
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
1107
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Posted - 2015.03.20 10:37:00 -
[62] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:KA24DERT wrote:Izlare Lenix wrote:The lack of aim assist and lower weapon damage during beta produced a much longer TTK than we have now.
And fights back then were more satisfying and more fun. Sometimes it took two clips to kill someone and you felt like you earned that kill. Or you managed to get away from several reds instead of insta dying to them.
Today's TTK is stupidly easy and boring. Killing someone or dying in a fraction of a second is not enjoyable. It's not satisfying or challenging and it sure as hell is not fun. Twitch shooters never are. This is the truth of the matter. Aim assist has a HUGE influence on balance and TTK in this game, and all you need to do is have a Blue on Blue duel in FW or PC to realize the truth. We could tweak numbers left and right to try and get around what Aim Assist does to the game's nature, or we could just get rid of Aim Assist and get back to the days where bullets didn't magically hit people, movement during duels mattered, and sidearms were the difference between life and death. The major blocking issue to this is the improvement of Hit Detection. Fix that and there's no excuse for AA existing in this game. Except, perhaps, that every single successful console shooter I can think of has had it. Can you name one that doesn't? And before you call me a scrub or otherwise insult my skills ( [:) ), please understand I'm a MKB PC gamer at heart. This is the first console shooter I've played any significant amount of time.
Whether or not other console shooters have AA doesn't negate the fact that AA in Dust is the largest SINGLE driving factor behind low TTK.
BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS | Mass Driver Advocate
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Indianna Pwns
The Cheshire Cats
42
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Posted - 2015.03.20 12:01:00 -
[63] - Quote
KA24DERT wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:KA24DERT wrote:Izlare Lenix wrote:The lack of aim assist and lower weapon damage during beta produced a much longer TTK than we have now.
And fights back then were more satisfying and more fun. Sometimes it took two clips to kill someone and you felt like you earned that kill. Or you managed to get away from several reds instead of insta dying to them.
Today's TTK is stupidly easy and boring. Killing someone or dying in a fraction of a second is not enjoyable. It's not satisfying or challenging and it sure as hell is not fun. Twitch shooters never are. This is the truth of the matter. Aim assist has a HUGE influence on balance and TTK in this game, and all you need to do is have a Blue on Blue duel in FW or PC to realize the truth. We could tweak numbers left and right to try and get around what Aim Assist does to the game's nature, or we could just get rid of Aim Assist and get back to the days where bullets didn't magically hit people, movement during duels mattered, and sidearms were the difference between life and death. The major blocking issue to this is the improvement of Hit Detection. Fix that and there's no excuse for AA existing in this game. Except, perhaps, that every single successful console shooter I can think of has had it. Can you name one that doesn't? And before you call me a scrub or otherwise insult my skills ( [:) ), please understand I'm a MKB PC gamer at heart. This is the first console shooter I've played any significant amount of time. Whether or not other console shooters have AA doesn't negate the fact that AA in Dust is the largest SINGLE driving factor behind low TTK.
Dust does NOT have a low TTK. Its a high health FPS coupled with fast strafe speeds, a high TTK disincentives tactical play as flanking around and getting behind players becomes less rewarding if they can just turn around engage you. |
postapo wastelander
Corrosive Synergy
1114
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Posted - 2015.03.20 12:15:00 -
[64] - Quote
Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:If CCP one day patched this in, would you be happy, angry, or ambivalent?
- Doubling Derpsuit Base HP
- Doubling Derpsuit Armor/Shield Module HP
- Doubling ammunition carried (not magazine size)
Like in old MAG times.
Proper shoot fights.
"Sebiestor Hetzer"
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Aramis Madrigal
Titans of Phoenix
383
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Posted - 2015.03.20 14:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:Aramis Madrigal wrote:Imagine combat modeled as a short series of Bernoulli distributed trials, with the ultimate victor being the individual who wins more of these handful of virtual coin flips. Now lets say the our bitter vet has a 70% chance of winning any one of these individual trials and our noob a 30% chance. In a short/moderate TTK scenario, there are perhaps 3-5 such trials (get the drop on a guy, get on target, stay on target, strafe, kill target). With a longer TTK, there are more such trials in each combat, making the outcome more likely to go in favor of the vet. I realize that this is a rather coarse model, but it's probably fairly accurate. Hmm, that's an interesting idea. However, I think it's inaccurate, in that it's not Bernoulli distribution (coin flip). It's talent-distributed or rear weighted, where the longer the battle goes, the higher likelihood of the better player winning each "flip". That said, I think the result is the same -- longer TTK gives the better skilled player more chances to tip the scale in their favor. TBH, I think it's rather self evident that longer TTK favors gun-game more than positioning. Thoughts?
No arguments from me :). I was just going for a simple framework to support the notion that longer TTK favors the more skilled player to a greater degree and diminishes the importance of the starting conditions. Regarding other comments around the homogeneity of fittings vis-a-vis relatively short TTK, I strongly disagree. Biotics and EWAR are best at influencing the starting conditions of a fight (or exiting an engagement). With long TTK, where starting conditions don't matter as much, the ability to take and dish out damage are most important. This is likely to compress most fittings into some balance of tank and damage. At present, you still see a fairly large diversity of fittings. The FOTM Min assault is very dangerous precisely because the base stats and slot layout allow for fittings that can do a bit of everything. A min assault with a damage mod, shield extenders, a kin cat, a profile damp, a ferroscale and a reactive is far more dangerous than one fitted exclusively with tank and damage. OHK oriented scouts, jumpers of various kinds and heavy spam are further indicative of the presence of a diversity of fittings. Small modifications to TTK may be in order, but I'm not in favor of moving to a drastically longer TTK.
-Aramis
p.s. I don't have much to say about AA as I play with a M/KB
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7682
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Posted - 2015.03.20 14:57:00 -
[66] - Quote
Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:If CCP one day patched this in, would you be happy, angry, or ambivalent?
- Doubling Derpsuit Base HP
- Doubling Derpsuit Armor/Shield Module HP
- Doubling ammunition carried (not magazine size)
Hate.
All the hate.
Why?
Sentinels.
And "gun game" people cite is nothing more than the strafe wiggle dance that allows people to bypass hit detection. It's not useful to the game until everyone can reliably hit their targets consistently.
AV
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KA24DERT
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
1108
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Posted - 2015.03.21 00:33:00 -
[67] - Quote
Indianna Pwns wrote:KA24DERT wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:KA24DERT wrote:Izlare Lenix wrote:The lack of aim assist and lower weapon damage during beta produced a much longer TTK than we have now.
And fights back then were more satisfying and more fun. Sometimes it took two clips to kill someone and you felt like you earned that kill. Or you managed to get away from several reds instead of insta dying to them.
Today's TTK is stupidly easy and boring. Killing someone or dying in a fraction of a second is not enjoyable. It's not satisfying or challenging and it sure as hell is not fun. Twitch shooters never are. This is the truth of the matter. Aim assist has a HUGE influence on balance and TTK in this game, and all you need to do is have a Blue on Blue duel in FW or PC to realize the truth. We could tweak numbers left and right to try and get around what Aim Assist does to the game's nature, or we could just get rid of Aim Assist and get back to the days where bullets didn't magically hit people, movement during duels mattered, and sidearms were the difference between life and death. The major blocking issue to this is the improvement of Hit Detection. Fix that and there's no excuse for AA existing in this game. Except, perhaps, that every single successful console shooter I can think of has had it. Can you name one that doesn't? And before you call me a scrub or otherwise insult my skills ( [:) ), please understand I'm a MKB PC gamer at heart. This is the first console shooter I've played any significant amount of time. Whether or not other console shooters have AA doesn't negate the fact that AA in Dust is the largest SINGLE driving factor behind low TTK. Dust does NOT have a low TTK. Its a high health FPS coupled with fast strafe speeds, a high TTK disincentives tactical play as flanking around and getting behind players becomes less rewarding if they can just turn around engage you.
If you think Dust has a high TTK and fast movement, you probably don't have much FPS experience.
On the full spectrum of shooters, Dust is a slow gank-fest. It isn't the slowest, gankiest shooter, but it is way more in that end of the spectrum than "Arena" style shooters.
The problem with slow gank fests("Tactical Shooters") is that positioning and map control become much stronger deciding factors. There's very little wiggle room for reflexes, aim, and CQC tactics to turn the tide of an engagement. The first one to press L1+R1 usually wins.
Shooters with fast movement and higher TTKs require both map control AND gungame, and I argue that this makes for a richer experience by varying the ways in which one can engage an opponent.
As it stands, Dust (and games like it) are throwing out a good portion of what made the FPS a staple in gaming.
BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS | Mass Driver Advocate
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TIGER SHARK1501
Savage Bullet
General Tso's Alliance
189
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Posted - 2015.03.21 00:45:00 -
[68] - Quote
Happy. I think mercs die far too quickly as is. |
JJ'S
Krusual Covert Operators
Minmatar Republic
53
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Posted - 2015.03.21 04:06:00 -
[69] - Quote
Leadfoot10 wrote:KA24DERT wrote:Izlare Lenix wrote:The lack of aim assist and lower weapon damage during beta produced a much longer TTK than we have now.
And fights back then were more satisfying and more fun. Sometimes it took two clips to kill someone and you felt like you earned that kill. Or you managed to get away from several reds instead of insta dying to them.
Today's TTK is stupidly easy and boring. Killing someone or dying in a fraction of a second is not enjoyable. It's not satisfying or challenging and it sure as hell is not fun. Twitch shooters never are. This is the truth of the matter. Aim assist has a HUGE influence on balance and TTK in this game, and all you need to do is have a Blue on Blue duel in FW or PC to realize the truth. We could tweak numbers left and right to try and get around what Aim Assist does to the game's nature, or we could just get rid of Aim Assist and get back to the days where bullets didn't magically hit people, movement during duels mattered, and sidearms were the difference between life and death. The major blocking issue to this is the improvement of Hit Detection. Fix that and there's no excuse for AA existing in this game. Except, perhaps, that every single successful console shooter I can think of has had it. Can you name one that doesn't? And before you call me a scrub or otherwise insult my skills ( [:) ), please understand I'm a MKB PC gamer at heart. This is the first console shooter I've played any significant amount of time.
CS:GO - No Aim assist.. Mouse and keyboard support for console versions.
Kilzone:Shadowfall - No aim assist. Extremely competitive playerbase.
Mag - Had no aim assist.
Battlefield 3 - Had no Aim assist for the start of the game cycle.. But had massive hit detection issues due to poor net code.. After 4 development cycles to try and fix hit detection, they implemented Aim assist as it's band-aid. This largely killed competitive Battlefield... Mass exodus of their talented FPS players... DUST was very lucky to pick up some of these players..
Soccom - had no aim assist.
Unreal Tournament - Had no aim assist for competitve game modes. Tournaments and Competitive game modes had Aim assist disabled.
GTA 5... Entire Lobbies in GTA have Aim assist disabled as a main setting. Competitive GTA in Deathmatches and crew battles has a Strict Aim assist disabled. And that is a game that has built in mechanics where you can take cover.. peak around a corner.. even stick your gun out and fire...
The worst part of DUST and aim assist is loosing personal assets with each death... Destiny, GTA, CoD... Dieing isn't a huge deal in the big picture.
There are tons of FPS games without aim assist. But every FPS game with Aim assist competes directly with Battlefield and CoD franchises.
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Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
1169
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Posted - 2015.03.21 08:18:00 -
[70] - Quote
Indianna Pwns wrote:
Dust does NOT have a low TTK. Its a high health FPS coupled with fast strafe speeds, a high TTK disincentives tactical play as flanking around and getting behind players becomes less rewarding if they can just turn around engage you.
No. this is not a "high health shooter". Not even close. You said car, and pointed at a barn.
Hawken is a "High health shooter".
Halo is a "Low Health Shooter"
CoD is a "No Health Shooter"
Ever play Hawken? You should. You'd realize how crap your entire statement is regarding tactics and engagement.
http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU
Dust to Dust
Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
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KA24DERT
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
1110
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Posted - 2015.03.22 05:23:00 -
[71] - Quote
JJ'S wrote:
...
The worst part of DUST and aim assist is loosing personal assets with each death... Destiny, GTA, CoD... Dieing isn't a huge deal
...
That's what irks me too. You skill up, get this bad ass suit, and it gets melted in a second.
On top of that, it's a fricken algorithm doing the melting.
BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS | Mass Driver Advocate
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Aikuchi Tomaru
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2721
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Posted - 2015.03.22 05:28:00 -
[72] - Quote
TTK is pretty long already, because the hit detection sucks. So if CCP decided to patch this in they should fix the crappy hit detection first. Also lags and the 30 fps limitation.
Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
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Kuruld Sengar
G.L.O.R.Y
General Tso's Alliance
272
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Posted - 2015.03.22 05:33:00 -
[73] - Quote
*broken record* SSD fixes the lag. Completely. Seriously, you should try one. |
Pseudogenesis
Nos Nothi
2340
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Posted - 2015.03.22 05:51:00 -
[74] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Longer TTK = player is too bad and he needs extra seconds to aim and fire back.
This is just patently untrue. Low time to kill is way better for bad players because then they don't have to try hard and commit to kill somebody. A few stray hipfire bullets and they'll get a kill. Why do you think Call of Duty has a low TTK?
Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ
I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
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demonkiller 12
Negative-Feedback.
Negative-Feedback
683
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Posted - 2015.04.01 06:23:00 -
[75] - Quote
Kuruld Sengar wrote:*broken record* SSD fixes the lag. Completely. Seriously, you should try one.
most of it |
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