I say if you want to make mods resistant to Shield destroying weaponry, they should be HS items.

If you want to do the same with Armor, they should be LS items.

This way choices and sacrifices have to be made.

I'll add a google doc when I get out of work, but I decided to do a bit of numbers on my idea (basing CPU / PG on the % difference between tank extenders / hardeners)

Proposal is based on ~120% CPU and ~53% PG of same level Extender / Plate:

Name Resist CPU PG
Basic Shield 10% 22 2
Enh Shield 20% 44 3
Proto Shield 25% 66 6

Basic Armor 10% 11 2
Enh Armor 20% 22 4
Proto Armor 25% 44 7

Vehicle tanks?

Here's my proposal.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p754JSaoUrvON5pV65fJAfyIcZPAccNMJDgFCO5tXqg/edit?usp=sharing

Here's my proposal.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p754JSaoUrvON5pV65fJAfyIcZPAccNMJDgFCO5tXqg/edit?usp=sharing

Here's my proposal.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p754JSaoUrvON5pV65fJAfyIcZPAccNMJDgFCO5tXqg/edit?usp=sharing

I absolutely have to commend you on your work Aeon, but the efficiency bonus to the skill seems a bit much. Care to explain why you chose such numbers?

I like your proposal but why is EM resistance increased by 1.5% across both damage specific plate types. My main concern is not the Shield Resistance Values but those on the Energized Plating.

With the negative efficiency vs Armour that would be an equivalent 47% damage resistance vs Armour.

It's because Laser weaponry receives a 20% increase to shield damage and a 15% increase to damage proficiency, which totaled, gives a much higher damage percentage bonus than any other rifle type. The modules were designed around the rifles as a whole (note that the Explosive plate/amplifer doesn't provide a reduction to Splash damage, which is the Adaptive's thing).

It's not because EM is being singled out, every (specific damage) resistance module is designed to counter the bonuses that weapon type provides or the inverse. So, if EM provides a 20% increase to Shield Damage, than the Shield Module would counter that while the Armor module would provide an -additional- resistance toward that damage profile.

Yes, the negative efficiency vs Armor would bring it up to 47% damage resistance, but the player is sacrificing a lot to be able to get that. The PG/CPU is designed to be costly but not punishing and it's taking up a slot that they would otherwise fill with buffer/regeneration which applies to all areas. It's a 47% damage resistance but they're not gaining anything against the other damage types; essentially wasting the slot.

I am not sure how I like the idea of having different % resists for each damage type, as it simply makes some modules more effective than others, for example Laser based weapon is weakened most here while others are not, which would weaken the weapon considerably when compared to other weapons fighting against their opponent's 1x resist mod.

If you want to have different % resists for each damage type, then they should follow a logic based on Shield and Armor.

For example:

The lowest progression on Shields is Laser, while the lowest progression on Armor is explosives. Basically making it hardest to fit against a tank type's weakness. [EDIT:] Or perhaps Vice Versa would be better, based on True's Concerns.

Another concern which I voiced earlier is that I don't think general passive resist mods will work as well in DUST, as it becomes a rather straight forward math equation as to when a plate is flat out better than the adaptive, or vice versa. It is, in essence, a false choice as you would (on math) either be choosing the better or the worst one for -all- circumstances.

Another idea is to have these modules increase a tank type's blast weakness (Flux for Shields, and Explosive Splash for Armor) by a moderate amount, with the trade off of even lower resistances so that they are always a 'worse' eHP choice than buffer, but potentially made better by the Flux / Explosive splash resistance. Basically making the desire to take the mod for those unique benefits.

I do like the idea of adding skills for each type though, as I feel DUST could always do with more skills that provide some benefit to skilling into them (Other than just unlocks)

Pardon me for asking but is that not the same for explosive damage weapons like the Mass Driver. I only ask since the resistance for Explosives vs Shielding amounts to a 45.5% resistance. To some degree I was expecting an inverse profile. I suspected you might opted for the addition 1.5% as a result of EM weapons DPS compared to Explosive weapons DPS.

Not necessarily. The only reason there is a difference in the percentages is because each of those weapon types do different damage profile bonuses. Blaster/Railguns do +10/-10, Projectile does +15/-15, Laser does +20/-20. The modules are designed to counter those bonuses and level the playing field with just one and if you're adding more than that you're -REALLY- sacrificing in order to reduce the damage.

Essentially the idea is that, if I'm an Armor Tanker... and I fit, say, an Explosive resistance plate. That levels the playing field against Projectile weapons, but I'm still weak against Rail weaponry.

On the other hand, if I'm armor tanking and I fit an Electromagnetic resistance plate, I'm power-housing my resistance to Laser weaponry. I'm still weak against Projectile and Rail but someone using a Scrambler rifle is going to have a -REALLY- hard time trying to kill me.

This design wouldn't work with active modules (like Equipment) because the amount of time you'd be spending trying to turn them on/off would just make infantry combat a hassle and I don't think anyone would use them. In an emergency, they'd be useless because the time it'd take to bring up the equipment wheel and turn them on is time that you'd be getting shot at. The idea of active resistance modules is cool for premeditated fights (like you know they're there and you're going to turn it on before you start fighting) but it's essentially useless for on-the-spot fights, which is what the majority of Dust 514 combat is.

Another benefit of passive modules is it provides more opportunities to fit more than one as you're not limited by low equipment slots. Resistance Equipment would just be a buff to slayer Logi's and it'd maybe bring back Assault Scouts as they'd use the two equipment slots for resistance modules and the rest for plates/extenders.

Sorry if I caused a misunderstanding.

I am not in any way supporting "active" mods, as I myself said earlier that I thought they wouldn't work as well.

What I meant was the "omni-resist" mods you were proposing. The concern being with the "omni-resist" mods that it's just a math calculation as to which is better at a given stage: Buffer or Omni-resist.
Again, not proposing active mods.

As to giving laser more resists, you neglect to consider that lasers get that "extra damage" from sacrificing on the other side of things (Armor). With the higher resist given to shield you effectively counter Shields fully with the same effort as any other damage type... but that doesn't "undo" the negative cost laser weapons have already suffered for that bonus, i.e their terrible damage vs Armor. Effectively, this creates a situation where Lasers are unfairly punished for their damage profile, as resist mods equally destroy their bonus same as any other damage profile, leaving lasers with a worse weakness than any other damage type (except explosive which is reversed)

Right. Explosive weapons do +20/-20 but the Energized Armor Plate (Explosive) doesn't provide a resistance for that. The (Adaptive) one is the only one that provides a resistance to Splash damage so that the modules loosely mimic the design of the Sentinel resistances where Splash damage is considered separate of the other Damage Types.

I explained this in the Design Philosophy section of the spreadsheet but maybe I should rename the module so that it is more clear.

Again wasn't criticising just wondering about your thought process which I see now is outlined.

I know you're not criticising =P I'm just trying to explain what I was thinking. I'm open to suggestions if you have any.

You should take into account the values for explosive and laser damage with their opposite tank.

In short: Adaptive Armor Plating (electromagnetic) and Shield Resistance Modules (Explosive) should be greatly reduced, i.e smaller than normal resist mods.

In short, they shouldn't be "double punished" for having a +20 / -20.

@Rattati & All else, I strongly believe if this is to happen the sentinel bonus needs to be changed...perhaps to module efficiency of equipped resistance mods

That'd be pretty cash.

Would also limit how many Sentinels fit straight up buffer (plates/extenders) and give them legitimate weaknesses if they fit with their racial bonus and only lessen the weaknesses if they fit to cover the resistance holes.

Something like:
Amarr Sentinel - 3% efficacy to (Explosive) Resistance Modules, 2% efficacy to (Kinetic) Resistance Modules per level.

As to my statements about the Adaptive mods being a calculateable best choice: I am comparing them to buffer mods (Such as shield extenders)

As a rough example: 36.3 - HP from basic Shield Extender with max skills

7.5% - Resists to all via the Adaptive Shield Resistance amplifiers.

So, by math, you can arrive at the Shield HP value at which an Adaptive mod provides more EHP than a same level Extender.
With the added benefit of being the only mod able to resist explosive splash.

Do you see what I mean by the "always best choice" at a certain point?

To be fair even though its not said I think most respectable armor tankers would fully accepts a increase to shield extender HP. Maybe up to Ferro levels

Sorry, I used Shields as an example, but it applies to both tanking types. If anything, it benefits armor more, as they can more easily get more buffer.

Not really. A basic Armor Plate is 93.5 additional armor. I'd be hard pressed to put on a Basic (Adaptive) when that'd only shave off 35 DPS off of a Prototype ACR.

You are correct, with plates you would roughly need over 1100 - 1300 (depending on comparing at basic vs proto levels) for a resist to provide more EHP than a plate.

With Ferroscale however, you would need roughly 461 (basic) - 703 (proto) base HP for a resist to outstrip a ferroscale.

Considering Shields perform even worse than ferroscale, this means that the Adaptive modules replace ferroscale and extenders for most respectable armor / shield tankers after a very short point. (In the case of some Amarrian / Caldari suits, this is reached very quickly) After this point, one adaptive always outshines one extender / ferroscale of equal level, although more expensive in fitting cost. EDIT: [Up until stacking penalties, so after 2 (in most cases)]

While I am not against the idea of adaptive (resist all) items, I feel they have to provide bonuses that do not make them required for any eHP fitting, as the idea with resist plates / shield resistance should be that you trade overall eHP for specific weapon damage eHP.

That'd be pretty cash.

Would also limit how many Sentinels fit straight up buffer (plates/extenders) and give them legitimate weaknesses if they fit with their racial bonus and only lessen the weaknesses if they fit to cover the resistance holes.

Something like:
Amarr Sentinel - 3% efficacy to (Explosive) Resistance Modules, 2% efficacy to (Kinetic) Resistance Modules per level.