DUST Search - Basic medium frames with 2 equipment slots

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

DarthJT5 wrote:

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going.,

Please address the logi module and equipment slot progression. Make the module slots mirror the assaults' at all tiers. The Minmatar one is the only one that's really "correct."

Gallente is fine too, and even Amarr because they get the sidearm slot. Cal however, need to lose a low slot and gain an equip slot, plus a CPU buff.

[PROBLEM]
STANDARD
AM logi: 4 module slots total, 2 equipment, and 1 sidearm.
GA logi: 2 module slots total, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
CA logi: 3 module slots total, 2 equipment, and no sidearm.
MN logi: 4 module slots total, 3 equipment, no sidearm.

In case the problem is not obvious right there, I will compare the standard logis with the racial equivalents:
The Minmatar and Amarr logis have a huge advantage over the others; they each start with 4 module slots. The Minmatar one has more equipment than the Amarr one, but the Amarr one has a sidearm.
The Caldari one only has 3 modules, but why? it doesn't gain anything in exchange for having less modules, it has only 2 equipment, and no sidearms. The Amarr logi by comparison has the same number of equipment, but more module slots, and gets a sidearm. Caldari logi is screwed at standard tier.
The Gallente one is also awful. Only 2 module slots? sure it has 3 equipment slots, but the Minmatar one also has 3 equipment slots, AND gets 4 module slots. The Gallente logi is screwed at standard tier.

ADVANCED
AM logi: 6 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm.
GA logi: 5 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
CA logi: 3 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
MN logi: 6 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.

Advanced logis comparison.
At advanced tier, Amarr logi is clearly the best logi. 6 modules, 3 equipment, and 1 sidearm.
Minmatar is in 2nd place, the only difference between the Minmatar and the Amarr logi is the lack of sidearm.
Both Gallente and Caldari are downright inferior at advanced. Only 5 modules, same number of equipment as the inferior logis, and no sidearm.

PROTOTYPE
AM logi: 7 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm.
GA logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm.
CA logi: 9 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm.
MN logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm.

[SOLUTION]

I would say to make logi module slots mirror their assault counterparts

The Amarr logi should remain an exception, having 1 less module per tier than it's assault counterpart, but keeping the sidearm in exchange.

All logis should have 3 equipment at standard, 3 at advanced, and 4 at prototype.

These changes would mean that the Caldari logi would have 8 module slots at prototype instead of 9, but in exchange would have more equipment slots at standard and prototype tier.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181630

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Velvet Overkill SI6MA Learning Alliance 130	Posted - 2015.03.12 00:07:00 - [1] - Quote Please make basic medium frames have 2 equipment slots so they'll finally be the generalists that assaults and logistics branch out from.
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 297	Posted - 2015.03.12 02:54:00 - [2] - Quote As long as Cal Logi get an extra equipment slot, I'm all for it. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 18363	Posted - 2015.03.12 03:04:00 - [3] - Quote I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going., "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12122	Posted - 2015.03.12 03:09:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going., Please address the logi module and equipment slot progression. Make the module slots mirror the assaults' at all tiers. The Minmatar one is the only one that's really "correct." Support 'Keshava' for the new Gallente HAV name in honor of Cat Merc's cat which recently passed away.
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8969	Posted - 2015.03.12 03:10:00 - [5] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going., And Scouts didn't? Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 298	Posted - 2015.03.12 03:10:00 - [6] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going., Please address the logi module and equipment slot progression. Make the module slots mirror the assaults' at all tiers. The Minmatar one is the only one that's really "correct." Gallente is fine too, and even Amarr because they get the sidearm slot. Cal however, need to lose a low slot and gain an equip slot, plus a CPU buff. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12123	Posted - 2015.03.12 03:17:00 - [7] - Quote DarthJT5 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going., Please address the logi module and equipment slot progression. Make the module slots mirror the assaults' at all tiers. The Minmatar one is the only one that's really "correct." Gallente is fine too, and even Amarr because they get the sidearm slot. Cal however, need to lose a low slot and gain an equip slot, plus a CPU buff. [PROBLEM] STANDARD AM logi: 4 module slots total, 2 equipment, and 1 sidearm. GA logi: 2 module slots total, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 3 module slots total, 2 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 4 module slots total, 3 equipment, no sidearm. In case the problem is not obvious right there, I will compare the standard logis with the racial equivalents: The Minmatar and Amarr logis have a huge advantage over the others; they each start with 4 module slots. The Minmatar one has more equipment than the Amarr one, but the Amarr one has a sidearm. The Caldari one only has 3 modules, but why? it doesn't gain anything in exchange for having less modules, it has only 2 equipment, and no sidearms. The Amarr logi by comparison has the same number of equipment, but more module slots, and gets a sidearm. Caldari logi is screwed at standard tier. The Gallente one is also awful. Only 2 module slots? sure it has 3 equipment slots, but the Minmatar one also has 3 equipment slots, AND gets 4 module slots. The Gallente logi is screwed at standard tier. ADVANCED AM logi: 6 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm. GA logi: 5 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 3 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 6 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. Advanced logis comparison. At advanced tier, Amarr logi is clearly the best logi. 6 modules, 3 equipment, and 1 sidearm. Minmatar is in 2nd place, the only difference between the Minmatar and the Amarr logi is the lack of sidearm. Both Gallente and Caldari are downright inferior at advanced. Only 5 modules, same number of equipment as the inferior logis, and no sidearm. PROTOTYPE AM logi: 7 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm. GA logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 9 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm. [SOLUTION] I would say to make logi module slots mirror their assault counterparts The Amarr logi should remain an exception, having 1 less module per tier than it's assault counterpart, but keeping the sidearm in exchange. All logis should have 3 equipment at standard, 3 at advanced, and 4 at prototype. These changes would mean that the Caldari logi would have 8 module slots at prototype instead of 9, but in exchange would have more equipment slots at standard and prototype tier. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181630 Support 'Keshava' for the new Gallente HAV name in honor of Cat Merc's cat which recently passed away.
DarthJT5 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 298	Posted - 2015.03.12 03:17:00 - [8] - Quote Maybe Amarr loses a low slot but gains an equip slot. I think every Logi should have 3 equip at standard and then 4 at adv/pro. Their total slots should be the same across each tier, but in different layouts. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Veteran Python Pilot for 1 year. The awnser is always XT missiles....
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 5862	Posted - 2015.03.12 03:17:00 - [9] - Quote DarthJT5 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going., Please address the logi module and equipment slot progression. Make the module slots mirror the assaults' at all tiers. The Minmatar one is the only one that's really "correct." Gallente is fine too, and even Amarr because they get the sidearm slot. Cal however, need to lose a low slot and gain an equip slot, plus a CPU buff. The Amarr either needs another equipment or low slot. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5362	Posted - 2015.03.12 03:31:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going., It makes more sense than the Scouts having 2 equipment I mean let's put it this way. A new player specs into Medium Frames to try them out, and more or less the medium frame performs like a kinda crappy Assault Suit, and that's fine. You can get a taste of the Assault Role and decide if that's the path for you. However, it's difficult to get a feel for playing a support character with only a single equipment. You can't really preview the Logistics role with the Medium Frame, and I think that's not good. So.......you really need to do something to buff the logis first, but let's just assume that all Logistics at all tiers have at a minimum 3 Equipment slots. This assures that regardless of tier and race, every single Logistics will have more equipment than a non-logi. Then I think you can safely give Medium Frames a second equipment slot because it will still have less equipment than a Logi. Will this make Medium Frames "Lite Logis"? Yes. Much like how they're "Lite-Assaults", and I think that's really the direction you need to go with it. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 18369	Posted - 2015.03.12 03:59:00 - [11] - Quote I trust in SirManBoy and Cross Atu to give me a fair assessment of this as well. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5367	Posted - 2015.03.12 04:06:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I trust in SirManBoy and Cross Atu to give me a fair assessment of this as well. Oh I've spoken with them in great detail over this, hopefully the poor Logis can get some love soon slips Rattati 5 ISK "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4691	Posted - 2015.03.12 04:16:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going., With the way the BW is set up on the basic frames I think there is less danger here. More effective suits earlier in the game for folks would be a huge boon. Plus I think it would be good to give people the change to get the taste of being a logi before having to commit to the specialization. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5369	Posted - 2015.03.12 04:33:00 - [14] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going., With the way the BW is set up on the basic frames I think there is less danger here. More effective suits earlier in the game for folks would be a huge boon. Plus I think it would be good to give people the change to get the taste of being a logi before having to commit to the specialization. That's also a very good point "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 735	Posted - 2015.03.12 04:39:00 - [15] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going., Bandwidth is single largest limiting factor of equipment usage. BW is what lets logis do all those cool things with equipment. The extra slots lets them have extra variety to boot. If the basic suits didn't have extra bandwidth then they wouldn't infringe upon logis much...they'd just have a few extra options compared to the specialized suits. Since the amount of simultaneously deployable equipment wouldn't change logis would maintain their role prominence while allowing generalist suits to be more general. Theoretically it could work.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 18373	Posted - 2015.03.12 04:43:00 - [16] - Quote sounds good, it's an easy change for sure "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2590	Posted - 2015.03.12 04:48:00 - [17] - Quote This won't infringe on Logis at all actually. Logis would still have their bandwidth, which has become the lifeblood of deplyable equipment use, and their bonuses. To say that these would infringe on Logos would be like saying the current basic frames are infringing on the role of Assault, which is blatantly untrue. Newbros need a suit they can use to get a taste of what Logi'ing is like, and adding a second equipment slot to basic frames would do just that. Basic Mediym Frames, ideally, should be the stats of Logis and Assaults, roughly averaged, but without the role/racial bonuses... Home at Last <3
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2646	Posted - 2015.03.12 05:28:00 - [18] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: DarthJT5 wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going., Please address the logi module and equipment slot progression. Make the module slots mirror the assaults' at all tiers. The Minmatar one is the only one that's really "correct." Gallente is fine too, and even Amarr because they get the sidearm slot. Cal however, need to lose a low slot and gain an equip slot, plus a CPU buff. [PROBLEM] STANDARD AM logi: 4 module slots total, 2 equipment, and 1 sidearm. GA logi: 2 module slots total, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 3 module slots total, 2 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 4 module slots total, 3 equipment, no sidearm. In case the problem is not obvious right there, I will compare the standard logis with the racial equivalents: The Minmatar and Amarr logis have a huge advantage over the others; they each start with 4 module slots. The Minmatar one has more equipment than the Amarr one, but the Amarr one has a sidearm. The Caldari one only has 3 modules, but why? it doesn't gain anything in exchange for having less modules, it has only 2 equipment, and no sidearms. The Amarr logi by comparison has the same number of equipment, but more module slots, and gets a sidearm. Caldari logi is screwed at standard tier. The Gallente one is also awful. Only 2 module slots? sure it has 3 equipment slots, but the Minmatar one also has 3 equipment slots, AND gets 4 module slots. The Gallente logi is screwed at standard tier. ADVANCED AM logi: 6 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm. GA logi: 5 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 3 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 6 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. Advanced logis comparison. At advanced tier, Amarr logi is clearly the best logi. 6 modules, 3 equipment, and 1 sidearm. Minmatar is in 2nd place, the only difference between the Minmatar and the Amarr logi is the lack of sidearm. Both Gallente and Caldari are downright inferior at advanced. Only 5 modules, same number of equipment as the inferior logis, and no sidearm. PROTOTYPE AM logi: 7 module slots tortal, 3 equipment, 1 sidearm. GA logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm. CA logi: 9 module slots, 3 equipment, and no sidearm. MN logi: 8 module slots, 4 equipment, and no sidearm. [SOLUTION] I would say to make logi module slots mirror their assault counterparts The Amarr logi should remain an exception, having 1 less module per tier than it's assault counterpart, but keeping the sidearm in exchange. All logis should have 3 equipment at standard, 3 at advanced, and 4 at prototype. These changes would mean that the Caldari logi would have 8 module slots at prototype instead of 9, but in exchange would have more equipment slots at standard and prototype tier. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181630 I would rather the Amarr logi Lose an equipment slot for the sidearm. so 3H/5L like assault, 3E, 1LW 1SW Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Edgar Reinhart Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 42	Posted - 2015.03.12 10:23:00 - [19] - Quote There has been quite a lot of discussion about this around recently and while 2 EQ slots is, on the whole, a reasonable idea to provide an in between suit before specialisation I'm not sure that it gives enough of an incentive for a newberry like me to run a medium over an assault or a logi at standard or advanced level. Maybe this is because I'm only familiar with the Gal layout though but as far as experimenting with fittings goes if for example I only had a G-1 Medium and an Assault G-1 to work with, they both cost the same ISK, but the Assault is 300-400,000 SP more. They also both have the same slot layout. With the Assault I could use one of the Low Slots for something other than armour and still have more armour than the medium frame, meaning that I can try out the fitting and still be more survivable. After standard the assault has more slots anyway. (I think) Then with the assault bonus helping with damage slightly I'm not losing much not putting a damage mod in the high slot meaning that I can try other things out here too and still be slightly better than standard at the shooty shooty side of things. Arguably the PG/CPU difference is slightly negated by the reduced fitting cost the Assaults have for weapons etc too. Anyway the point, I was wondering if there should be more of a cost difference between the basic and specialised too? It seems to make sense that a suit with less, slots, no bonus' and less armour/shield/bandwidth would cost less than the specialised ones with. I think at the moment only the prototype ones are cheaper. Either make the specialist suits more expensive and or the basic ones slightly cheaper. Then the basic suits can become more disposable and the cost associated with running them comes more from the cost fitting than the dropsuit itself..... It'll still be more expensive ISK wise to tank a basic to the equivalent assault levels of armour shield, or logi levels of scan/eq but there will be more room to play with the fittings. Or something like that. I guess most of these issues apply to the basic light frames too and possibly the heavies also. Thanks for reading, if you indeed did, and again people much cleverer than me have worked on all this already and before but I'll be interested to see the tweaks as I, personally like the idea of all the basic frames being viable too.
Nevyn Tazinas Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 62	Posted - 2015.03.12 11:15:00 - [20] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going., As always when suit slots come up, Basic and Adv should have the same slots as Proto. This would go a HUGE way towards solving the proto problem. Currently you not only have more powerful weapons backed by more powerful modules, but you also have more modules overall as well, making for a cubic approach to power. Making slots across Basic-Adv-Pro levels inside a suit type the same removes one of those power differentials while also adding more engaging game play into the fitting of basic suits, since assuming you left the suit fittings the same, you wouldn't be able to militia fit everything, and throwing an Adv or Proto module or weapon onto a Basic suit would now come at an actual sacrifice since you wouldn't be able to fill your slots out. Considering we now have proto suit BPO's which people get free fittings on even, there is no good argument left for not doing this. TLDR version. Suit Tiericide is needed. Slots should be the same at all levels, Suit fittings & base stats should be the only differences.

Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 636	Posted - 2015.03.12 11:29:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I trust in SirManBoy and Cross Atu to give me a fair assessment of this as well. Let me give you an anecdote: I made a new character. Minmatar. I wanted to play Minmatar Logi, because currently I have solo Gallente and solo scanning is heart-rendingly painful. What did I do? I skilled into Light Frames. Because they have two eq slots. Then I put SP into the Medium Frames, until I unlocked the Logi. Only then did I switch from the light suit. This is the kind of mental gymnastics that shouldn't apply to the NPE. They make the support role invisible unless the player randomly decides to skill into lights instead of mediums. Remember that basic frames don't get the Logi bonuses, which are necessary to make equipment really useful. Not to mention that there's no CPU/PG reduction skill on the Mediums (neither guns like Assault, nor equipment like Logi), which alone should already make them less viable as Logis than the Logi itself. P.S. Minmatar Logi is one of the most fun playstyles in the game. The speed, the Combat Rifle and the repair tool make it awesome.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6076	Posted - 2015.03.12 12:57:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I think this may infringe on logis a little. I have noted this down ( a long tima go really) but need a real discussion going., Infringe? Its an introductory logi suit. Logi is the only play style you can't get fully into with with a Basic suit. New players have to skill Basic to 3 and then Logi to 1 before they can play logi. Give them a suit they can experiment with at low levels. Just make it a variant that does not have a sidearm slot. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
shaman oga Dead Man's Game 4139	Posted - 2015.03.12 13:01:00 - [23] - Quote Since basic frame are the road to take to specialization, i don't see anything wrong in giving them 2 equipment slot, players will have the "taste" of how a logi/assault will be. Especially because they don't have fitting reduction. Pimp my Barge
Velvet Overkill SI6MA Learning Alliance 132	Posted - 2015.03.12 13:14:00 - [24] - Quote I have a spreadsheet with this and logistics fixes. Click the tabs with the letter "A" suffix. Tabs with letter "B" suffix has logistics split into two types, and the "best progression fixes" is something else you can read about here.


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