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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
9779
   |
Posted - 2015.03.09 05:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
In this thread I will discuss the problems I'm seeing with Assault Bonuses. The thread will not only address the lusterless Caldari and Gallente bonuses but also the Minmatar and Amarr bonuses.
A quick note, I have high a high SP Minmatar and Caldari alt but sadly no high SP Amarr alt. So my information and commentary on the Amarr's bonuses later down the line will be less meaty than the rest. My Roles are always Assault and Commando
To begin I'd like to make clear that each race has a particular playstyle that they tend to gravitate to when it comes to assaulting and their approach to assaulting should be reflective in their suits as well as their weapons.
I'll give a brief overview of what are the supposed style just to set the tone:
Minmatar - Highly Aggressive, hit and run, jack of all trades and master of none. (Hey that's catchy!)
Gallente - Aggressive, versatile, close-ranged combat brawler.
Caldari - Restrained, calculating, med-long ranged attacker. (Their suit takes the most intelligence to fit & play properly imo)
Amarr - Attentive, fierce, med-long ranged, brick walled aggressor.
For the most part the Developers have done a great job in reflecting the combat mantras of each race with the Assault suits and have done so with the weapons as well. Where we fell short however is the Assault bonuses which have thrown the intentional harmony of each factions rifles out of balance.
Each weapon has a down side and a strength. To keep things simple for now I'll stick with the main rifle of each race:
The Plasma Rifle on its own has good damage and RoF, great DPS and magazine size with easy handling. It's balanced only by it's short range and medium fitting requirements and that's it. The weapon is actually in a very good place right now contrary to some's belief.
The Rail Rifle on its own is a good weapon for destroying or whittling down your targets before you or the enemy gets in close for you to take them out easily with your sidearm, which both the Mag Sec and Bolt pistols are good for CQC for sidearms. Repeating myself, the Rail Rifle gets the blessing of chewing through defenses at range with a decent-sized magazine before they have a chance to reach you but sacrifices high DPS and difficult CQC handling for it. The weapon is in a good place right now imo if we can just get rid of the "ghost bullets" bug then I'd have no complaints.
The Combat Rifle on it's own is an aggressive, high RoF, high DPS, highly versatile, low resource weapon capable of shredding though defenses with ease as long as you can hit your target. The drawback of this weapon is only by it's low magazine size. Effectively making this weapon ideal for an all around hit and run, aggressive guerrilla style warfare.
I can't say much for the scrambler rifle as mentioned before but the basic weapon does require more skill than the others especially with heat management. I can definitely reduce suits of equal tier to near nothing with one charge shot as an intro to my attack and easily finish them off from there. It is a higher risk weapon than the other assaults but the Alpha damage capabilities of that weapon are well worth the risk. I'm seeing the disadvantages of the Scrambler Rifle to be heat management, lessened CQC handling and much higher fitting resources than most weapons.
Like mentioned before these vanilla variant weapons are near perfect by themselves, they match their races mantra with the appropriate positive negative traits that allow for dynamic and tactical gameplay.
But everything changed when the Fire Nation assault bonuses attacked.
As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
9779
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 05:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
With the addition to the bonuses the vanilla weapons become skewed in performance; some stepping into another weapons territory and some are left others sitting on its fingers.
The Plasma Rifle already has easy handling, the low recoil plasma rifle gets a bonus to even further its ease of use but to some long term and exclusive users (myself included) have concluded that it's not the biggest impact in the world especially with the Sharpshooter skill already up. The bonus is uninspiring by itself and not a game changer for the weapon.
The Rail Rifle suffers from similar issues of the Plasma Rifle. While the reload speed of Rail rifles (3.20s) are very slightly longer than the second longest reloading weapon; the plasma rifle(3.00s). The bonus to the reload skill by itself is enough to soften the blow if you can even call it a blow. With a weapon intended for easily applying damage before your target gets within range a reload bonus is not the ideal bonus for improving its performance. This bonus is lifeless and spiritless by itself.
To recapitulate, the Combat Rifle by itself is weapon capable of challenging most weapons in broad conditions, as long as the operator is able. The Rifle is capable of dealing massive amounts of damage in a short period of time making it ideal for taking out targets at close and the outer rims of medium ranged combat quick and fast. To do that it is imperative that you land more than 80% of your shots with the low mag size & damage per round meaning you must have some good gungame skill to back up that combat rifle for maximum effectivity.
With the bonus however the rifle losses the restriction of being held back by it's low magazine size and becomes able to deal the constant high RoF, sustained high DPS stream with no holding back. This means that the weapon now becomes over proficient at medium and med-long range; no longer having to be confined with its hit and run playstyle but capable of adapting a consistent purge of death playstyle instead. This is worse for the Plasma Rifle which is supposed to excel in close ranged combat but against a High RoF & DPS weapon such as the Bonused Combat Rifle it clearly has the upper hand of what you want out of a CQC weapon (Extreme RoF with High Mag size and DPS and easy handling). High RoF weapon, good range, High DPS, low resource weapon all that but with a big mag size = Over performing.
Most of the time extremely High RoF, High DPS weapons are balanced by their short range but have large mag size in most FPS games. You can also swap out mag size for range though and it stays fairly balanced.
The Amarr Assault bonus... with this I can see why people call the weapon OP, but I also experienced why it was so useful. It's not right for me to make any official statements with it with the amount of experience I have with the weapon. The issue of Turbo Controllers also come into play which is very common with Scrambler Rifle users, or at least players of my tier (look at allegiance information under my name) This makes the Scrambler rifle balance a little bit harder as the same with TAR issues.
Herein Lies the issue within rifle balance. One one end, you have two weapons giving bonuses to a trait that it didn't have too much of an issue with while having two other bonuses for the other two that allowed for them to overcome their major flaw.
If we were to go by the Logic of the Amarr and Minmatar Assault Bonuses we would get the Plasma Rifle with a lot more range and the Rail Rifle with a lot more DPS capability. We can all agree that a change to those weapons in that way would cause the weapons to become ridiculously OP. A weapons intended primary drawback should not be neutralized by a suit bonus unless the suit itself includes the drawback (I.e Commando suit). The Minmatar Assault suit is a different story for a different thread but the combat Rifle without the Bonus is very annoying like a fast stinging wasp but can be overcomed but still balanced. Not many complain about getting killed by scramblers (modded controllers excluded) outside of the Amarr Assault just as not many complain about the Combat Rifle outside of the Minmatar Assault.
Remember when the proficiency bonus gave a damage increase to both shield and armor? Remember why we did away with it? I believe just as the weapon proficiency bonus only furthers the damage of it's intended racial enemies defense so should the Assault Bonus.
An even ground of assault bonuses is possible and can be met it's just a matter of discussing what we want our weapons to do while not having motives of self-interest and retribution.
As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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DeadlyAztec11
Defenders of the Helghast Dream
7899
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Posted - 2015.03.09 05:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
13 more rounds do not make the Combat Rifle OP. It feels the same on just about all of the Assaults. It doesn't have a long reload time either so that's not an issue. It's just a nice perk.
The skill of the Amarr is necessary because when you don't have it the Scrambler Rifle is a really mediocre weapon and the reason it is only used on the Amarr Assault and and Amarr Commando.
The Gallente Assault skill is great because it allows strafing and spraying of a target in close range without having to feather the trigger or ADS to achieve accuracy. It is extremely useful in one v. one situations where either the oponent has more speed and/or health. It is also almost necessary if you want to hipfire the Ion Pistol while moving.
The Caldari Assault bonus is not useless but often times it is lackluster in a fight where your immediate concern is killing the enemy not reloading afterwards. It doesn't help the fact that Commandos have the same inherent bonus for all weapons.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
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Show the world we are one.
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
5761
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Posted - 2015.03.09 05:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
I don't understand why people say the drawback of the RR is the damage, I find it to be its ability to apply damage over time to be its weakness... It can hit hard, just not for long.
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LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
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Kalante Schiffer
Ancient Exiles.
987
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Posted - 2015.03.09 06:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
The assault gk.0 with the AR needs more damage against armor. End of story. Its no hidden secret that this thing can not keep up in PC against a wave of heavies at close range. This is suppose to be a close range weapon right? If CCP cant do that right then just leave damage alone and give it range so it can keep up with the rest of rifles. It's one or the other c'mon its not that hard.
Caldari and its RR i feel like it needs more of a reduced recharge bonus than a reduced kick bonus. People need to nut up and learn how to control recoil.
framerate>everything else
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Mexxx Dust-Slayer
Negative-Feedback
412
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Posted - 2015.03.09 06:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kalante Schiffer wrote:The assault gk.0 with the AR needs more damage against armor. End of story. Its no hidden secret that this thing can not keep up in PC against a wave of heavies at close range. This is suppose to be a close range weapon right? If CCP cant do that right then just leave damage alone and give it range so it can keep up with the rest of rifles. It's one or the other c'mon its not that hard.
Caldari and its RR i feel like it needs more of a reduced recharge bonus than a reduced kick bonus. People need to nut up and learn how to control recoil.
The gal assault is king of cqc... provided there are no heavies.
As long as the HMG is doing double the AR dps and 45% more damage to your primary tank than to your shields there will never be a place for the gal assault in pc, you'll have to stay out of HMG range at about 40m while not going to far out of your optimum so you basically have to be king of 40m-60m.
Also while the amarr sentinel is the king in pc, you're dealing -10% of your dps to the most popular heavy that has more than twice your HP and twice your dps. |
Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2534
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 06:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
I can't in a right mind accept that the Minassault makes CRs/ACRs better than BuPRs/PRs on a Galassault.
It just doesn't make any sense...
PR damage per mag: 2163.7 - 2380.07
ACR damage per mag:1349.8 - 1484.78
With Minassault: 1687.25 -1855.975
BuPR damage per mag: 2065 - 2163.33
CR damage per mag: 1458 - 1603.8
With Minassault:1890-2079
These differences are hugely in favor of PRs. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, people heavily underestimate the value of more damage in the magazine.
Minassault never even closes the gap at any point...
Also, PR has less kick and better hipfire, even without skills applied. With Galassault and Sharpshooter the PR has practically no kick, and an absolutely amazing hipfire.
The only real advantages that CRs have over PRs are as follows...
>Small range advantage. 3m more optimal for CR, 5m more optimal for ACR.
>Less fitting costs. Probably the biggest advantage, but it only becomes truly apparent at PRO level.
>Armor damage based. I'd say the CR barely wins out here, mostly because the PR has a less extreme profile, which makes its weak armor damage less of a problem than the CRs weak shield damage... but I won't argue that more armor damage is better, so the CR gets a small advantage here.
Overall, with or without the corresponding Assault bonuses applied to them, the PR is just better overall.
Home at Last <3
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
5763
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Posted - 2015.03.09 07:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:I can't in a right mind accept that the Minassault makes CRs/ACRs better than BuPRs/PRs on a Galassault.
It just doesn't make any sense...
PR damage per mag: 2163.7 - 2380.07
ACR damage per mag:1349.8 - 1484.78
With Minassault: 1687.25 -1855.975
BuPR damage per mag: 2065 - 2163.33
CR damage per mag: 1458 - 1603.8
With Minassault:1890-2079
These differences are hugely in favor of PRs. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, people heavily underestimate the value of more damage in the magazine.
Minassault never even closes the gap at any point...
Also, PR has less kick and better hipfire, even without skills applied. With Galassault and Sharpshooter the PR has practically no kick, and an absolutely amazing hipfire.
The only real advantages that CRs have over PRs are as follows...
>Small range advantage. 3m more optimal for CR, 5m more optimal for ACR.
>Less fitting costs. Probably the biggest advantage, but it only becomes truly apparent at PRO level.
>Armor damage based. I'd say the CR barely wins out here, mostly because the PR has a less extreme profile, which makes its weak armor damage less of a problem than the CRs weak shield damage... but I won't argue that more armor damage is better, so the CR gets a small advantage here.
Overall, with or without the corresponding Assault bonuses applied to them, the PR is just better overall.
Except when in actual use in game. Could blame the meta, large amounts of heavies, but maybe its just another Ascr, idk I rarely use anything gallente.
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LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
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Alena Ventrallis
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
2614
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Posted - 2015.03.09 07:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
Having used the scrambler since 1.8 dropped, here is my opinion.
I find the ScR to be in a really good place. Let's look at the Viziam's stats in relation to killing potential.
Damage: 71.5
ROF: 600
DPS: 715
Seems very high, and truly it is capable of mass destruction. Now modded controllers could be an issue, however even if we assume every scrambler user has one, we must make note of several things that heat adds in.
First, on average, I can get about 16 shots maximum before I seize up. I would like to get/borrow a modded controller and run tests with it to see what the actual max shots you can get off are, however, Let's play around with 16. Since we want to avoid seizing, since it leaves me unable to sprint, fire, melee, or throw grenades, let's look at the damage 15 shots can do. 71.5 x 15 is 1072.5 damage before the next shot seizes me. Again, seems like a large number. Let's compare it to your Plasma Rifle: 2380 damage before running dry and needing to reload. You can put out over twice the damage I can before you are forced to stop, whether by my seize or your reload. That is not an insignificant figure. In fact Kirk, I honestly ask this; how often do you decide to switch to your sidearm to finish an opponent? I feel like with my AR, I don't worry about my sidearm unless I missed a lot and he's still alive. With the ScR, my sidearm is an integral part of my battle strategy, not an afterthought or just-in-case backup weapon.
Second, let's look at the options I have once I hit the magic 15 shots fired. I now have to choose between 3 options. one, and most obvious, is I can fire again and seize up. I won't lie, I tend to seize up a lot, especially in the heat of the moment when I stop focusing on keeping mental track of my heat buildup. Two, I can switch to my sidearm (usually a breach SMG) to finish the job, the scrambler having removed all shield and some of the armor. Or three, I can simply let the heat cool down some then start firing again. I usually only do this at range, but I sometimes will fall back to cooldown if I think he has backup. More often than not, I take option 2.
Third, all thee numbers are excluding one of the most crucial factors in the game, and indeed in any competitive multiplayer game: human error. We can talk numbers 'til we are both blue in the face, but those numbers mean nothing if they don't hit your opponent. I'd love to say that I can hit almost 100% of the time with my ScR, but I will not lie; A good portion of them hit nothing at all. This is because of how much people strafe, how the hit detection can be buggy sometimes, and how excited I get when fighting which makes me put too much pressure on adjusting my aim. If you miss 5 shots with your PR, you lost ~7% of your total damage before you need to stop firing to reload. If I miss the same 5 shots, that's 33% of my total damage I can deal before seizing gone. That is a huge difference in lost killing potential.
And finally, let's run the numbers assuming AmAssault 5. With AmAssault to 5, I gain about 7 more shots, and I tend to seize up on shot 22 or 23. Let's look at shot 21. 71.5 x 21 is 1501.5 damage before I seize up. That's 878.5 damage less than you can deal before reload. This is why you see the ScR almost exclusively on AmAssault; that heat reduction is crucial to the success of any given engagement with the ScR. Even the AmCommando's 10% damage bonus isn't worth more than the heat reduction. And even WITH the heat reduction, our sidearms are what make or break us in the vast majority of 1v1. More often than not, I'm switching to my sidearm.
I will not cover the ScR's weakness to armor, because this is a symptom of the armor meta, and meta can change. If shield becomes the new meta, the ScR will jump to the forefront just like the CR and HMG are now.
This is why the ScR is balanced; we have great power, but that power comes at a high price. Our incredibly high paper DPS is mitigated by the low potential damage we can deal before overheat, and while AmAssault helps lessen this price, it does not remove it. Truly, if it were the all-powerful death-machine it is falsely accused of being, wouldn;t everyone and their clone-mother be using it? Yet it isn't the top boght rifle on the market, nor does it account for the most kills overall in Dust; it's not even in the top 10 killers for PC. Rattati's data showed us that shotguns made over 7 times more kills than ScR's did in PC. This is not insignificant. The evidence is clear; ScR is powerful but balanced, and AmAssault is working as intended.
Listen to my muscle memory
Contemplate what I've been clinging to
Forty-six and two ahead of me
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DeadlyAztec11
Defenders of the Helghast Dream
7900
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 09:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:I can't in a right mind accept that the Minassault makes CRs/ACRs better than BuPRs/PRs on a Galassault.
It just doesn't make any sense...
PR damage per mag: 2163.7 - 2380.07
ACR damage per mag:1349.8 - 1484.78
With Minassault: 1687.25 -1855.975
BuPR damage per mag: 2065 - 2163.33
CR damage per mag: 1458 - 1603.8
With Minassault:1890-2079
These differences are hugely in favor of PRs. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, people heavily underestimate the value of more damage in the magazine.
Minassault never even closes the gap at any point...
Also, PR has less kick and better hipfire, even without skills applied. With Galassault and Sharpshooter the PR has practically no kick, and an absolutely amazing hipfire.
The only real advantages that CRs have over PRs are as follows...
>Small range advantage. 3m more optimal for CR, 5m more optimal for ACR.
>Less fitting costs. Probably the biggest advantage, but it only becomes truly apparent at PRO level.
>Armor damage based. I'd say the CR barely wins out here, mostly because the PR has a less extreme profile, which makes its weak armor damage less of a problem than the CRs weak shield damage... but I won't argue that more armor damage is better, so the CR gets a small advantage here.
Overall, with or without the corresponding Assault bonuses applied to them, the PR is just better overall.
Things don't always work out in practice like they do on paper.
Usually because we assume unrealistic perfectness.
You are assuming that all shots from each weapon hit. Though we all know the CR is more precise because it drills holes in the same spot before recoil can get the better of it. Also it's hipfire its better for this reason as well. It's just easier to land shots with the CR. This is the reason the Gallente Skill is so crucial.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Ku Shala
UNITED MERCINARY AND PILOTS ALLIANCE
1295
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Posted - 2015.03.09 14:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
it takes 5.25 seconds to fire the whole ar PR clip and only 2.7 seconds to fire the CR clip thats the difference in the damage profiles so basically the PR is doing roughly have the damage of its mag when the cr is fully unloaded
-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (CK-0 Specialist)
Caldari Loyalist
Superior technology will privale.
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Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
748
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Posted - 2015.03.09 14:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aztec, stop with the bonus being 'crucial' crap. It only affects the last 25-30 bullets that come out of the gun by which point most suits would be dead. The bonus is jank. Why is the bonus reducing something that is low if you have sharpshooter? The only weapon it really helps is the ion pistol and even then the first shot will probably go where you want it. It just seems to me that I would be better off using a CR cos it already has almost no dispersion, can kill things faster and is able to fire an entire mag and reload before an AR has emptied its mag. Either RoF buff or a range buff would be a better bonus. Optimal range would be nice. |
Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
5769
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 14:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Aztec, stop with the bonus being 'crucial' crap. It only affects the last 25-30 bullets that come out of the gun by which point most suits would be dead. The bonus is jank. Why is the bonus reducing something that is low if you have sharpshooter? The only weapon it really helps is the ion pistol and even then the first shot will probably go where you want it. It just seems to me that I would be better off using a CR cos it already has almost no dispersion, can kill things faster and is able to fire an entire mag and reload before an AR has emptied its mag. Either RoF buff or a range buff would be a better bonus. Optimal range would be nice.
I would totally be for a RoF buff but since the Tar has the ability to shoot more bullets at the same Rpm as the Scr it kinda dissuades me, especially since it doesn't overheat too.
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LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
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Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
748
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Posted - 2015.03.09 14:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:Aztec, stop with the bonus being 'crucial' crap. It only affects the last 25-30 bullets that come out of the gun by which point most suits would be dead. The bonus is jank. Why is the bonus reducing something that is low if you have sharpshooter? The only weapon it really helps is the ion pistol and even then the first shot will probably go where you want it. It just seems to me that I would be better off using a CR cos it already has almost no dispersion, can kill things faster and is able to fire an entire mag and reload before an AR has emptied its mag. Either RoF buff or a range buff would be a better bonus. Optimal range would be nice. I would totally be for a RoF buff but since the Tar has the ability to shoot more bullets at the same Rpm as the Scr it kinda dissuades me, especially since it doesn't overheat too.
If it was 3% per level, it wouldn't increase it by much but I get your point. Which is why I would prefer an optimal range increase. Its the biggest downside the weapon has. dispersion and kick are already low with sharpshooter 4 and assault rifle op 5. |
Jakkal Shoobah
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
RISE of LEGION
88
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Posted - 2015.03.09 15:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
I repsecced last night. I'm using all the assaults and a few other suits. I'm biased towards gallente, but Ihave given each assault a fair chance .
Each assault fit out with its races weapon is as deadly as it should be. They operate well within their optimal ranges. I agree with Sgt. Kirks idea on the gal and caldaris skill bonuses being lackluster.
I find that the reason caldari and gallente bonuses dont fare well is not due to their bonus, but the way their rifles apply the damage in comparison to the other races. Assuming you followed the logic of the OP, essentially what it boils down to is some races bonuses being much more effective at the assault part.
I think some of the problem lies in that scr and Cr are high alpha, burst weapons that get bonuses to the amount of time they can put out damage in an encounter , while the AR and rail rifle are suppresive fire weapons that get bonuses that help them put out damage more consistently, with better ease, more often? ( not sure what phrase)
Perhaps some racial bonuses could use some tweaking ?
This post has something to do with ttk and how each races bonus affects their rifles ttk. That's all I have found and or thought of for now.
While slow to anger and occasionally indecisive, they are also capable of harnessing enormous resolve when truly tested.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7383
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Posted - 2015.03.09 15:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cal Assault - 3 to 5% bonus to spool up time; 5% bonus to ADS kick
Gal Assault - 2 to 3% bonus to RoF; 5% bonus to hipfire dispersion
All Assaults - Reduce movement speeds across the board.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2540
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Posted - 2015.03.09 17:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Aztec, stop with the bonus being 'crucial' crap. It only affects the last 25-30 bullets that come out of the gun by which point most suits would be dead. The bonus is jank. Why is the bonus reducing something that is low if you have sharpshooter? The only weapon it really helps is the ion pistol and even then the first shot will probably go where you want it. It just seems to me that I would be better off using a CR cos it already has almost no dispersion, can kill things faster and is able to fire an entire mag and reload before an AR has emptied its mag. Either RoF buff or a range buff would be a better bonus. Optimal range would be nice.
This is I no way a good thing for the CR... "Oh man, CRs are so much better because their magazines run dry faster!" You sound stupid saying **** like that.
And the bonus affects every single bullet that you fire, not just the last 25-30, because it affects both dispersion and kick. It reduces recoil, and makes you more accurate while ADS and on the hip.
It doesn't just reduce kick... It makes your hipfire better as well.
Home at Last <3
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Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
748
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Posted - 2015.03.09 17:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:Aztec, stop with the bonus being 'crucial' crap. It only affects the last 25-30 bullets that come out of the gun by which point most suits would be dead. The bonus is jank. Why is the bonus reducing something that is low if you have sharpshooter? The only weapon it really helps is the ion pistol and even then the first shot will probably go where you want it. It just seems to me that I would be better off using a CR cos it already has almost no dispersion, can kill things faster and is able to fire an entire mag and reload before an AR has emptied its mag. Either RoF buff or a range buff would be a better bonus. Optimal range would be nice. This is I no way a good thing for the CR... "Oh man, CRs are so much better because their magazines run dry faster!" You sound stupid saying **** like that. And the bonus affects every single bullet that you fire, not just the last 25-30, because it affects both dispersion and kick. It reduces recoil, and makes you more accurate while ADS and on the hip. It doesn't just reduce kick... It makes your hipfire better as well.
How is that stupid? It means you are able to apply more damage over a shorter timeframe, emptying an entire mag on someone in less than 3 seconds is a huge advantage when close to someone. Also the first 40 shots from an AR barely have any kick so why would I want a bonus that reduces something that is small anyway? It is a redundant bonus. |
Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2540
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Posted - 2015.03.09 17:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:Aztec, stop with the bonus being 'crucial' crap. It only affects the last 25-30 bullets that come out of the gun by which point most suits would be dead. The bonus is jank. Why is the bonus reducing something that is low if you have sharpshooter? The only weapon it really helps is the ion pistol and even then the first shot will probably go where you want it. It just seems to me that I would be better off using a CR cos it already has almost no dispersion, can kill things faster and is able to fire an entire mag and reload before an AR has emptied its mag. Either RoF buff or a range buff would be a better bonus. Optimal range would be nice. This is I no way a good thing for the CR... "Oh man, CRs are so much better because their magazines run dry faster!" You sound stupid saying **** like that. And the bonus affects every single bullet that you fire, not just the last 25-30, because it affects both dispersion and kick. It reduces recoil, and makes you more accurate while ADS and on the hip. It doesn't just reduce kick... It makes your hipfire better as well. How is that stupid? It means you are able to apply more damage over a shorter timeframe, emptying an entire mag on someone in less than 3 seconds is a huge advantage when close to someone. Also the first 40 shots from an AR barely have any kick so why would I want a bonus that reduces something that is small anyway? It is a redundant bonus.
You clearly have no idea on the relationships between DPS, Magazine Size, Magazine Time,and Damage per Magazine.
It isn't applying more damage over a shorter timeframe. It is applying less damage over a shorter timeframe, as there is less damage in a ACRs magazine.
Saying the ACRs magazine size is better is like saying the AR would be better if its mag was reduced to 43. Its stupid.
It is an unarguable point that the AR has better magazine and damage based stats than the ACR. It is just better, simply.
Home at Last <3
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Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
749
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Posted - 2015.03.09 18:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:Aztec, stop with the bonus being 'crucial' crap. It only affects the last 25-30 bullets that come out of the gun by which point most suits would be dead. The bonus is jank. Why is the bonus reducing something that is low if you have sharpshooter? The only weapon it really helps is the ion pistol and even then the first shot will probably go where you want it. It just seems to me that I would be better off using a CR cos it already has almost no dispersion, can kill things faster and is able to fire an entire mag and reload before an AR has emptied its mag. Either RoF buff or a range buff would be a better bonus. Optimal range would be nice. This is I no way a good thing for the CR... "Oh man, CRs are so much better because their magazines run dry faster!" You sound stupid saying **** like that. And the bonus affects every single bullet that you fire, not just the last 25-30, because it affects both dispersion and kick. It reduces recoil, and makes you more accurate while ADS and on the hip. It doesn't just reduce kick... It makes your hipfire better as well. How is that stupid? It means you are able to apply more damage over a shorter timeframe, emptying an entire mag on someone in less than 3 seconds is a huge advantage when close to someone. Also the first 40 shots from an AR barely have any kick so why would I want a bonus that reduces something that is small anyway? It is a redundant bonus. You clearly have no idea on the relationships between DPS, Magazine Size, Magazine Time,and Damage per Magazine. It isn't applying more damage over a shorter timeframe. It is applying less damage over a shorter timeframe, as there is less damage in a ACRs magazine. Saying the ACRs magazine size is better is like saying the AR would be better if its mag was reduced to 43. Its stupid. It is an unarguable point that the AR has better magazine and damage based stats than the ACR. It is just better, simply. And like I said, the bonus doesn't just reduce kick. It also tightens the hipfire cone of the weapon, which is a really good thing by itself. Together with the kick reduction, which reduces the need for feathering pretty much completely, the overall Galassault bonus is really great.
The AR hardly has any dispersion, go use a BAR or a burst and tell me when kick and dispersion become a problem. As for the CR thing, I can apply my entire magazines damage on someone in a little under/over 3 seconds. I can then reload and start shooting again in about another 2.3 seconds.
So a Combat rifle could empty an entire magazine on someone, fire some more, all before a gallente assault can empty and reload. A combat rifle can apply more damage overall because of its good fire rate and short reload times. That and it has a much higher DPS anyway. |
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DeadlyAztec11
Defenders of the Helghast Dream
7903
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Posted - 2015.03.09 18:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:
How is that stupid? It means you are able to apply more damage over a shorter timeframe, emptying an entire mag on someone in less than 3 seconds is a huge advantage when close to someone. Also the first 40 shots from an AR barely have any kick so why would I want a bonus that reduces something that is small anyway? It is a redundant bonus.
Your hipfire while standing doesn't matter. No one hipfires the AR standing still. And in a tight situation you usually end up dancing with your oponent to keep them from dodging your shots.
"Just aim down sights"
No one has time for that, not when you are closer than 10m to your oponent. Standing still will get you killed against HMG's, Nova Knifers, m+¬l+¬e, Plasma Cannons, shotguns and anyone fast enough to strafe. Standing still or slowing yourself down is a huge gamble that is usually lost against an equally compotent oponent.
The 25% reduction to spread is very noticeable when moving because you will notice that your hipfire box stays at a useful size.
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
9789
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Posted - 2015.03.09 18:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Fizzer I'm not sure how you're not understanding that High RoF means being able to apply damage faster? Regardless of your views on it I'm not sure your grasping what Echo is saying.
Think of it as a drag race, you may say that the AR has a greater damage per clip but when they are in a drag race its all about who reaches the finish line the fastest. And with the Combat rifle its going to cross the finish line everytime before the AR gets into 2nd gear.
Also, I'm sticking with Base variants for now fizzer if you didn't catch that in the original post.
And you need to calm your tone down. This thread was keeping it level until you started throwing tantrums in post #17
As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2540
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Posted - 2015.03.09 18:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:Aztec, stop with the bonus being 'crucial' crap. It only affects the last 25-30 bullets that come out of the gun by which point most suits would be dead. The bonus is jank. Why is the bonus reducing something that is low if you have sharpshooter? The only weapon it really helps is the ion pistol and even then the first shot will probably go where you want it. It just seems to me that I would be better off using a CR cos it already has almost no dispersion, can kill things faster and is able to fire an entire mag and reload before an AR has emptied its mag. Either RoF buff or a range buff would be a better bonus. Optimal range would be nice. This is I no way a good thing for the CR... "Oh man, CRs are so much better because their magazines run dry faster!" You sound stupid saying **** like that. And the bonus affects every single bullet that you fire, not just the last 25-30, because it affects both dispersion and kick. It reduces recoil, and makes you more accurate while ADS and on the hip. It doesn't just reduce kick... It makes your hipfire better as well. How is that stupid? It means you are able to apply more damage over a shorter timeframe, emptying an entire mag on someone in less than 3 seconds is a huge advantage when close to someone. Also the first 40 shots from an AR barely have any kick so why would I want a bonus that reduces something that is small anyway? It is a redundant bonus. You clearly have no idea on the relationships between DPS, Magazine Size, Magazine Time,and Damage per Magazine. It isn't applying more damage over a shorter timeframe. It is applying less damage over a shorter timeframe, as there is less damage in a ACRs magazine. Saying the ACRs magazine size is better is like saying the AR would be better if its mag was reduced to 43. Its stupid. It is an unarguable point that the AR has better magazine and damage based stats than the ACR. It is just better, simply. And like I said, the bonus doesn't just reduce kick. It also tightens the hipfire cone of the weapon, which is a really good thing by itself. Together with the kick reduction, which reduces the need for feathering pretty much completely, the overall Galassault bonus is really great. The AR hardly has any dispersion, go use a BAR or a burst and tell me when kick and dispersion become a problem. As for the CR thing, I can apply my entire magazines damage on someone in a little under/over 3 seconds. I can then reload and start shooting again in about another 2.3 seconds. So a Combat rifle could empty an entire magazine on someone, fire some more, all before a gallente assault can empty and reload. A combat rifle can apply more damage overall because of its good fire rate and short reload times. That and it has a much higher DPS anyway.
Are you comparing Regular CRs to ARs instead of ACRs... :/
At least make it an equal comparison. Burst ARs vs CRs, and ACRs vs ARs.
In which case, my argument still applies. ARs have much more damage in their magazines than CRs do, and apply that damage at a faster rate...
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
2540
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Posted - 2015.03.09 18:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Fizzer I'm not sure how you're not understanding that High RoF means being able to apply damage faster? Regardless of your views on it I'm not sure your grasping what Echo is saying.
Think of it as a drag race, you may say that the AR has a greater damage per clip but when they are in a drag race its all about who reaches the finish line the fastest. And with the Combat rifle its going to cross the finish line everytime before the AR gets into 2nd gear.
Also, I'm sticking with Base variants for now fizzer if you didn't catch that in the original post.
And you need to calm your tone down. This thread was keeping it level until you started throwing tantrums in post #17
So we aren't comparing ACRs to ARs, but instead CRs to ARs...?
Home at Last <3
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
9789
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Posted - 2015.03.09 18:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:
How is that stupid? It means you are able to apply more damage over a shorter timeframe, emptying an entire mag on someone in less than 3 seconds is a huge advantage when close to someone. Also the first 40 shots from an AR barely have any kick so why would I want a bonus that reduces something that is small anyway? It is a redundant bonus.
Your hipfire while standing doesn't matter. No one hipfires the AR standing still. And in a tight situation you usually end up dancing with your oponent to keep them from dodging your shots. "Just aim down sights" No one has time for that, not when you are closer than 10m to your oponent. Standing still will get you killed against HMG's, Nova Knifers, m+¬l+¬e, Plasma Cannons, shotguns and anyone fast enough to strafe. Standing still or slowing yourself down is a huge gamble that is usually lost against an equally compotent oponent. The 25% reduction to spread is very noticeable when moving because you will notice that your hipfire box stays at a useful size.
Aztec, what weapons and suits do you have at level 5?
As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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Vesta Opalus
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
RISE of LEGION
484
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Posted - 2015.03.09 19:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:
The Plasma Rifle on its own has good damage and RoF, great DPS and magazine size with easy handling. It's balanced only by it's short range and medium fitting requirements and that's it. The weapon is actually in a very good place right now contrary to some's belief.
The problem with the plasma rifle isnt that its bad in itself, its that most of its optimal is overlapped by the HMG, which far outclasses it. |
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
17529
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Posted - 2015.03.09 20:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
I certainly do want to see changes to the PR. Prior to picking up the Black Eagles AR I would never have looked side ways at the weapon for any reason but in the last few weeks I have to say I love the gun for all the reasons that the ScR fails.
I'd love to skill into it properly but corporation rules prevent me from using it on a frequent basis.
I'd say I am against seeing Range Buffs specifically for the TAR due to it encroaching on the ScR range profile, and while I can certainly say I don't mind the competition we have to remember that one of the defining features of Blaster Weapons in Dust and in EVE is that is has comparably shorter ranges in exchange for its high DPS values.
If that means we have to adjust the base range profiles of the guns to have them compete more then by all means suggest it to Rattati but the way I see it from my limited use of the weapon is that it RoF is decidedly average and its dispersion [for a guy with no Prof or OP skills] is less than stellar.
Perhaps the RoF changes could serve to better the weapon by allowing it to apply more DPS in close range where the fast moving Gallente Assaults should excel.
However a previous post in this thread does outline certain aspects of the PR as compared to say the ScR that I notice. The value of the PR [and I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir] is it's large magazine size and relative lack of weaknesses or as I consider it....it's averageness.
Also I suppose when comparing the ScR to any gun you have to compare it assuming that the over heat value is effectively the end of its magazine for all intents and purposes as you wait for its cool down or over heat into what is effectively a "punishing reload" that cannot be cancelled. Also assuming that it means that every shot missed by the ScR is shaving a significantly greater proportion of its total damage potential and reducing over all DPS by a greater margin.
I'm not saying the two are balanced but are not as far apart as people make them out to be...a matter of greener grass for all intents and purposes...though I'd like to see more PR's on field.
"This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
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Alena Ventrallis
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
2625
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Posted - 2015.03.10 03:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Fizzer I'm not sure how you're not understanding that High RoF means being able to apply damage faster? Regardless of your views on it I'm not sure your grasping what Echo is saying.
Think of it as a drag race, you may say that the AR has a greater damage per clip but when they are in a drag race its all about who reaches the finish line the fastest. And with the Combat rifle its going to cross the finish line everytime before the AR gets into 2nd gear.
Also, I'm sticking with Base variants for now fizzer if you didn't catch that in the original post.
And you need to calm your tone down. This thread was keeping it level until you started throwing tantrums in post #17
I agree that the CR will reahc the finish line first, as you put it. But again, you are assuming that every shot will always hit. You aren't accounting for human error, which means some of the total damage you can deal will be wasted because you were shooting the air instead of your opponent. In fact, that's the whole reason for the strafe gameplay we have; to make your opponent miss his shots enough that he runs out of ammo in the magazine/seize/etc.The drag race is a great place to see some fast cars, but the drag racer will lose in a circuit race, to use your analogy.
Listen to my muscle memory
Contemplate what I've been clinging to
Forty-six and two ahead of me
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
9796
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Posted - 2015.03.10 03:50:00 -
[29] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:Fizzer I'm not sure how you're not understanding that High RoF means being able to apply damage faster? Regardless of your views on it I'm not sure your grasping what Echo is saying.
Think of it as a drag race, you may say that the AR has a greater damage per clip but when they are in a drag race its all about who reaches the finish line the fastest. And with the Combat rifle its going to cross the finish line everytime before the AR gets into 2nd gear.
Also, I'm sticking with Base variants for now fizzer if you didn't catch that in the original post.
And you need to calm your tone down. This thread was keeping it level until you started throwing tantrums in post #17
I agree that the CR will reahc the finish line first, as you put it. But again, you are assuming that every shot will always hit. You aren't accounting for human error, which means some of the total damage you can deal will be wasted because you were shooting the air instead of your opponent. In fact, that's the whole reason for the strafe gameplay we have; to make your opponent miss his shots enough that he runs out of ammo in the magazine/seize/etc.The drag race is a great place to see some fast cars, but the drag racer will lose in a circuit race, to use your analogy.
Pay attention to the point in my thread where I say if the Operator is able or skilled enough.
Whatever the word I used.
As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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Loyal Glasses
G.L.O.R.Y
General Tso's Alliance
49
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Posted - 2015.03.11 15:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
Wouldn't it be better if we just get rid of the weapons based bonus and just increase those suits base advantages?
Amarr - 5% armor increase and 3% stamina
Caldari - 5% shield increase and 3% shield recharge
Minmatar - 5% shield recharge and 3% sprint speed
Gallente - 5% armor repair and and 3% armor increase
or something along those lines anyways.
"Glasses of the Loyal Variety"
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
9821
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Posted - 2015.03.11 16:47:00 -
[31] - Quote
Loyal Glasses wrote:Wouldn't it be better if we just get rid of the weapons based bonus and just increase those suits base advantages?
Amarr - 5% armor increase and 3% stamina
Caldari - 5% shield increase and 3% shield recharge
Minmatar - 5% shield recharge and 3% sprint speed
Gallente - 5% armor repair and and 3% armor increase
or something along those lines anyways.
This right here, is honestly what I was hoping someone would eventually get to.
+1 to you man.
As much as I'd love to have a weapons and suit bonus Rattati or someone has stated its a code issue to change the suit classes bonus or some jive like that. I'd much rather have those traits that increases the attributes of the races assaulting characteristics than a weapon bonus.
As much is id love to have both. Maybe then from it being naked we could see where good but non overpowering bonuses would come into play if they ever fixed the overall class bonus.
As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
5836
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Posted - 2015.03.11 17:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Loyal Glasses wrote:Wouldn't it be better if we just get rid of the weapons based bonus and just increase those suits base advantages?
Amarr - 5% armor increase and 3% stamina
Caldari - 5% shield increase and 3% shield recharge
Minmatar - 5% shield recharge and 3% sprint speed
Gallente - 5% armor repair and and 3% armor increase
or something along those lines anyways. This right here, is honestly what I was hoping someone would eventually get to. +1 to you man. As much as I'd love to have a weapons and suit bonus Rattati or someone has stated its a code issue to change the suit classes bonus or some jive like that. I'd much rather have those traits that increases the attributes of the races assaulting characteristics than a weapon bonus. As much is id love to have both. Maybe then from it being naked we could see where good but non overpowering bonuses would come into play if they ever fixed the overall class bonus.
What about giving that bonus to the basic frames
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
9822
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Posted - 2015.03.11 17:12:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:
What about giving that bonus to the basic frames
which bonus set?
As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
5838
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Posted - 2015.03.11 17:37:00 -
[34] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:
What about giving that bonus to the basic frames
which bonus set?
Well ever since I first played eve I've always wanted the basic frames to have bonuses like those above with the exception of the Amarr getting a resistance module bonus instead but CCP
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
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Alena Ventrallis
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
2628
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Posted - 2015.03.11 17:50:00 -
[35] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:
Pay attention to the point in my thread where I say if the Operator is able or skilled enough.
Whatever the word I used.
So skill is to be punished? Should we set all weapons to the same range, damage, ROF, mag size and reserve ammo, in order to have everyone on a completely level playing field?
Some people are really good with certain weapons. Why should we nerf weapons based on who is good with it?
Listen to my muscle memory
Contemplate what I've been clinging to
Forty-six and two ahead of me
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
9824
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 17:51:00 -
[36] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:
Pay attention to the point in my thread where I say if the Operator is able or skilled enough.
Whatever the word I used.
So skill is to be punished? Should we set all weapons to the same range, damage, ROF, mag size and reserve ammo, in order to have everyone on a completely level playing field? Some people are really good with certain weapons. Why should we nerf weapons based on who is good with it?
I have no clue what point you're trying to make in your strawman argument.
As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
9824
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 17:52:00 -
[37] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:
What about giving that bonus to the basic frames
which bonus set? Well ever since I first played eve I've always wanted the basic frames to have bonuses like those above with the exception of the Amarr getting a resistance module bonus instead but CCP
Resistance bonuses would have been great had they try to implement it :(. and I'd love for basic frames to at least get some kind of love.
As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP
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Alena Ventrallis
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
2628
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Posted - 2015.03.11 18:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:
Pay attention to the point in my thread where I say if the Operator is able or skilled enough.
Whatever the word I used.
So skill is to be punished? Should we set all weapons to the same range, damage, ROF, mag size and reserve ammo, in order to have everyone on a completely level playing field? Some people are really good with certain weapons. Why should we nerf weapons based on who is good with it? I have no clue what point you're trying to make in your strawman argument.
That operator skill cannot be ignored when talking weapon balance. Ease-of-use is just as valid a factor as range or DPS. For instance, the ScR has massive DPS, but operator error can easily cut 33% of your potential DPS because you missed.
I just don't understand the argument that since some peope are really good with a weapon, it's reason to tweak it. We have to take into account how easily a weapon can apply it's DPS in addition to other factors. We can't assume all users of a particular weapon are equally skilled.
Listen to my muscle memory
Contemplate what I've been clinging to
Forty-six and two ahead of me
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