DUST Search - Dissecting the Assault role and it's bonuses.

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

Sgt Kirk wrote:

Fizzer I'm not sure how you're not understanding that High RoF means being able to apply damage faster? Regardless of your views on it I'm not sure your grasping what Echo is saying.

Think of it as a drag race, you may say that the AR has a greater damage per clip but when they are in a drag race its all about who reaches the finish line the fastest. And with the Combat rifle its going to cross the finish line everytime before the AR gets into 2nd gear.

Also, I'm sticking with Base variants for now fizzer if you didn't catch that in the original post.

And you need to calm your tone down. This thread was keeping it level until you started throwing tantrums in post #17

I agree that the CR will reahc the finish line first, as you put it. But again, you are assuming that every shot will always hit. You aren't accounting for human error, which means some of the total damage you can deal will be wasted because you were shooting the air instead of your opponent. In fact, that's the whole reason for the strafe gameplay we have; to make your opponent miss his shots enough that he runs out of ammo in the magazine/seize/etc.The drag race is a great place to see some fast cars, but the drag racer will lose in a circuit race, to use your analogy.

As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP


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Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9779	Posted - 2015.03.09 05:09:00 - [1] - Quote In this thread I will discuss the problems I'm seeing with Assault Bonuses. The thread will not only address the lusterless Caldari and Gallente bonuses but also the Minmatar and Amarr bonuses. A quick note, I have high a high SP Minmatar and Caldari alt but sadly no high SP Amarr alt. So my information and commentary on the Amarr's bonuses later down the line will be less meaty than the rest. My Roles are always Assault and Commando To begin I'd like to make clear that each race has a particular playstyle that they tend to gravitate to when it comes to assaulting and their approach to assaulting should be reflective in their suits as well as their weapons. I'll give a brief overview of what are the supposed style just to set the tone: Minmatar - Highly Aggressive, hit and run, jack of all trades and master of none. (Hey that's catchy!) Gallente - Aggressive, versatile, close-ranged combat brawler. Caldari - Restrained, calculating, med-long ranged attacker. (Their suit takes the most intelligence to fit & play properly imo) Amarr - Attentive, fierce, med-long ranged, brick walled aggressor. For the most part the Developers have done a great job in reflecting the combat mantras of each race with the Assault suits and have done so with the weapons as well. Where we fell short however is the Assault bonuses which have thrown the intentional harmony of each factions rifles out of balance. Each weapon has a down side and a strength. To keep things simple for now I'll stick with the main rifle of each race: The Plasma Rifle on its own has good damage and RoF, great DPS and magazine size with easy handling. It's balanced only by it's short range and medium fitting requirements and that's it. The weapon is actually in a very good place right now contrary to some's belief. The Rail Rifle on its own is a good weapon for destroying or whittling down your targets before you or the enemy gets in close for you to take them out easily with your sidearm, which both the Mag Sec and Bolt pistols are good for CQC for sidearms. Repeating myself, the Rail Rifle gets the blessing of chewing through defenses at range with a decent-sized magazine before they have a chance to reach you but sacrifices high DPS and difficult CQC handling for it. The weapon is in a good place right now imo if we can just get rid of the "ghost bullets" bug then I'd have no complaints. The Combat Rifle on it's own is an aggressive, high RoF, high DPS, highly versatile, low resource weapon capable of shredding though defenses with ease as long as you can hit your target. The drawback of this weapon is only by it's low magazine size. Effectively making this weapon ideal for an all around hit and run, aggressive guerrilla style warfare. I can't say much for the scrambler rifle as mentioned before but the basic weapon does require more skill than the others especially with heat management. I can definitely reduce suits of equal tier to near nothing with one charge shot as an intro to my attack and easily finish them off from there. It is a higher risk weapon than the other assaults but the Alpha damage capabilities of that weapon are well worth the risk. I'm seeing the disadvantages of the Scrambler Rifle to be heat management, lessened CQC handling and much higher fitting resources than most weapons. Like mentioned before these vanilla variant weapons are near perfect by themselves, they match their races mantra with the appropriate positive negative traits that allow for dynamic and tactical gameplay. But everything changed when the ~~Fire Nation~~ assault bonuses attacked. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9779	Posted - 2015.03.09 05:09:00 - [2] - Quote With the addition to the bonuses the vanilla weapons become skewed in performance; some stepping into another weapons territory and some are left others sitting on its fingers. The Plasma Rifle already has easy handling, the low recoil plasma rifle gets a bonus to even further its ease of use but to some long term and exclusive users (myself included) have concluded that it's not the biggest impact in the world especially with the Sharpshooter skill already up. The bonus is uninspiring by itself and not a game changer for the weapon. The Rail Rifle suffers from similar issues of the Plasma Rifle. While the reload speed of Rail rifles (3.20s) are very slightly longer than the second longest reloading weapon; the plasma rifle(3.00s). The bonus to the reload skill by itself is enough to soften the blow if you can even call it a blow. With a weapon intended for easily applying damage before your target gets within range a reload bonus is not the ideal bonus for improving its performance. This bonus is lifeless and spiritless by itself. To recapitulate, the Combat Rifle by itself is weapon capable of challenging most weapons in broad conditions, as long as the operator is able. The Rifle is capable of dealing massive amounts of damage in a short period of time making it ideal for taking out targets at close and the outer rims of medium ranged combat quick and fast. To do that it is imperative that you land more than 80% of your shots with the low mag size & damage per round meaning you must have some good gungame skill to back up that combat rifle for maximum effectivity. With the bonus however the rifle losses the restriction of being held back by it's low magazine size and becomes able to deal the constant high RoF, sustained high DPS stream with no holding back. This means that the weapon now becomes over proficient at medium and med-long range; no longer having to be confined with its hit and run playstyle but capable of adapting a consistent purge of death playstyle instead. This is worse for the Plasma Rifle which is supposed to excel in close ranged combat but against a High RoF & DPS weapon such as the Bonused Combat Rifle it clearly has the upper hand of what you want out of a CQC weapon (Extreme RoF with High Mag size and DPS and easy handling). High RoF weapon, good range, High DPS, low resource weapon all that but with a big mag size = Over performing. Most of the time extremely High RoF, High DPS weapons are balanced by their short range but have large mag size in most FPS games. You can also swap out mag size for range though and it stays fairly balanced. The Amarr Assault bonus... with this I can see why people call the weapon OP, but I also experienced why it was so useful. It's not right for me to make any official statements with it with the amount of experience I have with the weapon. The issue of Turbo Controllers also come into play which is very common with Scrambler Rifle users, or at least players of my tier (look at allegiance information under my name) This makes the Scrambler rifle balance a little bit harder as the same with TAR issues. Herein Lies the issue within rifle balance. One one end, you have two weapons giving bonuses to a trait that it didn't have too much of an issue with while having two other bonuses for the other two that allowed for them to overcome their major flaw. If we were to go by the Logic of the Amarr and Minmatar Assault Bonuses we would get the Plasma Rifle with a lot more range and the Rail Rifle with a lot more DPS capability. We can all agree that a change to those weapons in that way would cause the weapons to become ridiculously OP. A weapons intended primary drawback should not be neutralized by a suit bonus unless the suit itself includes the drawback (I.e Commando suit). The Minmatar Assault suit is a different story for a different thread but the combat Rifle without the Bonus is very annoying like a fast stinging wasp but can be overcomed but still balanced. Not many complain about getting killed by scramblers (modded controllers excluded) outside of the Amarr Assault just as not many complain about the Combat Rifle outside of the Minmatar Assault. Remember when the proficiency bonus gave a damage increase to both shield and armor? Remember why we did away with it? I believe just as the weapon proficiency bonus only furthers the damage of it's intended racial enemies defense so should the Assault Bonus. An even ground of assault bonuses is possible and can be met it's just a matter of discussing what we want our weapons to do while not having motives of self-interest and retribution. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9789	Posted - 2015.03.09 18:23:00 - [3] - Quote Fizzer I'm not sure how you're not understanding that High RoF means being able to apply damage faster? Regardless of your views on it I'm not sure your grasping what Echo is saying. Think of it as a drag race, you may say that the AR has a greater damage per clip but when they are in a drag race its all about who reaches the finish line the fastest. And with the Combat rifle its going to cross the finish line everytime before the AR gets into 2nd gear. Also, I'm sticking with Base variants for now fizzer if you didn't catch that in the original post. And you need to calm your tone down. This thread was keeping it level until you started throwing tantrums in post #17 *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9789	Posted - 2015.03.09 18:27:00 - [4] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: How is that stupid? It means you are able to apply more damage over a shorter timeframe, emptying an entire mag on someone in less than 3 seconds is a huge advantage when close to someone. Also the first 40 shots from an AR barely have any kick so why would I want a bonus that reduces something that is small anyway? It is a redundant bonus. Your hipfire while standing doesn't matter. No one hipfires the AR standing still. And in a tight situation you usually end up dancing with your oponent to keep them from dodging your shots. "Just aim down sights" No one has time for that, not when you are closer than 10m to your oponent. Standing still will get you killed against HMG's, Nova Knifers, m+¬l+¬e, Plasma Cannons, shotguns and anyone fast enough to strafe. Standing still or slowing yourself down is a huge gamble that is usually lost against an equally compotent oponent. The 25% reduction to spread is very noticeable when moving because you will notice that your hipfire box stays at a useful size. Aztec, what weapons and suits do you have at level 5? *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9796	Posted - 2015.03.10 03:50:00 - [5] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Fizzer I'm not sure how you're not understanding that High RoF means being able to apply damage faster? Regardless of your views on it I'm not sure your grasping what Echo is saying. Think of it as a drag race, you may say that the AR has a greater damage per clip but when they are in a drag race its all about who reaches the finish line the fastest. And with the Combat rifle its going to cross the finish line everytime before the AR gets into 2nd gear. Also, I'm sticking with Base variants for now fizzer if you didn't catch that in the original post. And you need to calm your tone down. This thread was keeping it level until you started throwing tantrums in post #17 I agree that the CR will reahc the finish line first, as you put it. But again, you are assuming that every shot will always hit. You aren't accounting for human error, which means some of the total damage you can deal will be wasted because you were shooting the air instead of your opponent. In fact, that's the whole reason for the strafe gameplay we have; to make your opponent miss his shots enough that he runs out of ammo in the magazine/seize/etc.The drag race is a great place to see some fast cars, but the drag racer will lose in a circuit race, to use your analogy. Pay attention to the point in my thread where I say if the Operator is able or skilled enough. Whatever the word I used. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9821	Posted - 2015.03.11 16:47:00 - [6] - Quote Loyal Glasses wrote: Wouldn't it be better if we just get rid of the weapons based bonus and just increase those suits base advantages? Amarr - 5% armor increase and 3% stamina Caldari - 5% shield increase and 3% shield recharge Minmatar - 5% shield recharge and 3% sprint speed Gallente - 5% armor repair and and 3% armor increase or something along those lines anyways. This right here, is honestly what I was hoping someone would eventually get to. +1 to you man. As much as I'd love to have a weapons and suit bonus Rattati or someone has stated its a code issue to change the suit classes bonus or some jive like that. I'd much rather have those traits that increases the attributes of the races assaulting characteristics than a weapon bonus. As much is id love to have both. Maybe then from it being naked we could see where good but non overpowering bonuses would come into play if they ever fixed the overall class bonus. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9822	Posted - 2015.03.11 17:12:00 - [7] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: What about giving that bonus to the basic frames which bonus set? *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9824	Posted - 2015.03.11 17:51:00 - [8] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Pay attention to the point in my thread where I say if the Operator is able or skilled enough. Whatever the word I used. So skill is to be punished? Should we set all weapons to the same range, damage, ROF, mag size and reserve ammo, in order to have everyone on a completely level playing field? Some people are really good with certain weapons. Why should we nerf weapons based on who is good with it? I have no clue what point you're trying to make in your strawman argument. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9824	Posted - 2015.03.11 17:52:00 - [9] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: What about giving that bonus to the basic frames which bonus set? Well ever since I first played eve I've always wanted the basic frames to have bonuses like those above with the exception of the Amarr getting a resistance module bonus instead but CCP Resistance bonuses would have been great had they try to implement it :(. and I'd love for basic frames to at least get some kind of love. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*