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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1770
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Posted - 2015.02.18 22:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
In preparing the hotfix Delta of last fall, during heated discussions of swarm vs ADS balance,
CCP Rattati said that swarms changes (the acceleration and top speed buffs) won't affect Swarm vs HAV balance.
(I was trying to find the post to quote it but after 30mins of searching couldn't figure the right string to find it to share, sorry)
Immediately after Delta I noticed that swarm changes did affect tank survivability.
It became somewhat harder to be able for a tank to survive a match, some 20% harder for me and observing random tanks even harder for them.
Note that I'm not saying that tanks should survive the matches most of the time. I'm talking about resulting changes.
The acceleration really made it easier for tanks to get hit by several swarms. Again, after 1st hit the second is likely to be close to hit already. Also, reaction time percentage in order to move to cover dropped drastically.
The announced nerf in swarm turn radius has not been noticed by anyone I know.
Why post about this now?
I did not want to make any hasty conclusions on the weeks, or months following. I do not QQ.
Also I wanted to get experience on current swarms as as a zealous forge gunner I hadn't used them for two years or so. It was a surprise how easy swarms were so got the other perspective as well.
On Warlords 1.0 this topic should be discussed because:
- Warbarge +x % damage bonus is a big thing in AV vs Vehicle balance.
- Current SP gain rate is big so masses have reached the 'normal' level of Proto with high proficiency
- Commados with swarms have begun being popular
As of now I've observed an another wave of vehicle survivability loss.
If the intent was to keep Swarm vs HAV balance on hotfix Charlie levels, that part was failed (even though swarms vs DSs are okay)
Ahh the inertial dampeners are back to normal! ^ ^
Thank you.
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Thumb Green
Raymond James Corp
2105
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Posted - 2015.02.18 22:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
How can you complain about HAV survivability against SL and then say SL vs DS is okay?
Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty hipster!
[RYJC]
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1771
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Posted - 2015.02.18 22:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:How can you complain about HAV survivability against SL and then say SL vs DS is okay?
I'm saying the change in Swarms vs DS went as CCP Rattati intended.
Apparently the Swarms vs HAV did not.
Sorry if it seems the emphasis is elsewhere.
Ahh the inertial dampeners are back to normal! ^ ^
Thank you.
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
5421
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Posted - 2015.02.18 22:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tl;Dr I came to the conclusion that swarms MIGHT be killing tanks a little bit more even though I have no mathematical evidence of such claims.... K den
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7287
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Posted - 2015.02.18 22:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
5% by itself isn't enough to change TTK in AV/V.
this has been another red herring brought to you by tinfoil.
if three heavy damage mods won't do it, or three light damage mods, then the warbarge bonus won't either.
AV
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1771
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Posted - 2015.02.18 22:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:5% by itself isn't enough to change TTK in AV/V.
this has been another red herring brought to you by tinfoil.
if three heavy damage mods won't do it, or three light damage mods, then the warbarge bonus won't either.
The emphasis is on the Swarm behavior change of the past.
The 5% won't make it any less.
And, 5% does make a difference especially as it is most likely not affected by stacking penalties.
Ahh the inertial dampeners are back to normal! ^ ^
Thank you.
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Savage Mangler
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
289
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Posted - 2015.02.18 22:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
No one ever mentions that most tankers run gunnlogis with double shield hardeners, and that the average player cannot on their own deal enough damage to one with a SL to destroy it. No one mentions that the only infantry held anti shield AV weapon is the plasma cannon.
K den.
Free your mind, break your shackles.....
In other words....stop being a gorram metasheeple.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1771
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Posted - 2015.02.18 23:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nocturnal Soul wrote:Tl;Dr I came to the conclusion that swarms MIGHT be killing tanks a little bit more even though I have no mathematical evidence of such claims.... K den
It is called observation or empirical 'evidence'.
We have no access to those kill stats CCP does. We can only hope they have a look if that's the case.
Ahh the inertial dampeners are back to normal! ^ ^
Thank you.
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2998
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Posted - 2015.02.18 23:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:How can you complain about HAV survivability against SL and then say SL vs DS is okay?
The main advantage ADSs have over land vehicles is they can disengage much quicker and cannot be followed to the extent tanks can.
Dust is there! I was real!
Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
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tal mrak-thanl
Aethan Dor
122
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Posted - 2015.02.18 23:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
I've seen so many tanks survive multiple swarmers and forgebros for the last month that I have come to a resounding conclusion: the game mechanics favor tank survivability. And you know what, as a prof 3 AV, I am OK with that. Tanks should be challenging to destroy.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7289
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Posted - 2015.02.18 23:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:Tl;Dr I came to the conclusion that swarms MIGHT be killing tanks a little bit more even though I have no mathematical evidence of such claims.... K den It is called observation or empirical 'evidence'. We have no access to those kill stats CCP does. We can only hope they have a look if that's the case.
I can tell you now against the projected HAVs swarms and forges will share roughly the same shots to kill. Already ran the numbers based on an AV gunner getting a perfect string of attack non-weakspot.
5% won't. Change shots to kill on a triple modded wiyrkomi swarm. Iffy on double.
AV
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1772
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Posted - 2015.02.18 23:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Thumb Green wrote:How can you complain about HAV survivability against SL and then say SL vs DS is okay? The main advantage ADSs have over land vehicles is they can disengage much quicker and cannot be followed to the extent tanks can.
But then again it's far easier for tanks to use terrain and buildings for cover.
At first thought it might feel the opposite, but it really is that way.
Ahh the inertial dampeners are back to normal! ^ ^
Thank you.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1772
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Posted - 2015.02.18 23:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
5% won't. Change shots to kill on a triple modded wiyrkomi swarm. Iffy on double.
Again, it is the combo of all:
- Faster, more accelerating swarms
- Masses reached the baseline of proto with prof 4-5
- Commandos getting real use
AND
- that 5% on top.
Note that I did NOT even mention this when the first on that list came. Not that dumb to think that a single detail change can affect real balance.
Ahh the inertial dampeners are back to normal! ^ ^
Thank you.
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LUGMOS
Corrosive Synergy
RISE of LEGION
2176
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Posted - 2015.02.18 23:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:Tl;Dr I came to the conclusion that swarms MIGHT be killing tanks a little bit more even though I have no mathematical evidence of such claims.... K den It is called observation or empirical 'evidence'. We have no access to those kill stats CCP does. We can only hope they have a look if that's the case. I can tell you now against the projected HAVs swarms and forges will share roughly the same shots to kill. Already ran the numbers based on an AV gunner getting a perfect string of attack non-weakspot.
5% won't. Change shots to kill on a triple modded wiyrkomi swarm. Iffy on double.
In which case you know the swarm will be the go to because of it's ease of use and all that, and it is just as effective.
Official QuafeGäó Advocate
Anti-FoTM Prof. V
Forum Scavenger Prof. V
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LUGMOS
Corrosive Synergy
RISE of LEGION
2176
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Posted - 2015.02.18 23:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Savage Mangler wrote:No one ever mentions that most tankers run gunnlogis with double shield hardeners, and that the average player cannot on their own deal enough damage to one with a SL to destroy it. No one mentions that the only infantry held anti shield AV weapon is the plasma cannon.
K den.
No AVer saying tanks are OP ever says that the Madrugar is a joke.
k den
Official QuafeGäó Advocate
Anti-FoTM Prof. V
Forum Scavenger Prof. V
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
Negative-Feedback
15674
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Posted - 2015.02.18 23:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
Reserved.
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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LUGMOS
Corrosive Synergy
RISE of LEGION
2179
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Posted - 2015.02.18 23:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Oh shiit.
Official QuafeGäó Advocate
Anti-FoTM Prof. V
Forum Scavenger Prof. V
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Darken-Soul
BIG BAD W0LVES
2124
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Posted - 2015.02.19 01:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Savage Mangler wrote:No one ever mentions that most tankers run gunnlogis with double shield hardeners, and that the average player cannot on their own deal enough damage to one with a SL to destroy it. No one mentions that the only infantry held anti shield AV weapon is the plasma cannon.
K den.
Most tankers are forced to run gunloggi. There's not many of us armor tankers left.
Who wants some?
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Darken-Soul
BIG BAD W0LVES
2124
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Posted - 2015.02.19 01:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Thumb Green wrote:How can you complain about HAV survivability against SL and then say SL vs DS is okay? The main advantage ADSs have over land vehicles is they can disengage much quicker and cannot be followed to the extent tanks can. But then again it's far easier for tanks to use terrain and buildings for cover. At first thought it might feel the opposite, but it really is that way.
Swarms travel thru terrain and corners. Also if one missile makes it thru you take full damage.
Who wants some?
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1774
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Posted - 2015.02.19 01:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Darken-Soul wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Thumb Green wrote:How can you complain about HAV survivability against SL and then say SL vs DS is okay? The main advantage ADSs have over land vehicles is they can disengage much quicker and cannot be followed to the extent tanks can. But then again it's far easier for tanks to use terrain and buildings for cover. At first thought it might feel the opposite, but it really is that way. Swarms travel thru terrain and corners. Also if one missile makes it thru you take full damage.
1st point depends on map and the terrain in question.
2nd point is not true: often swarm user launches with terrain close to him and only 1-3 missiles fly out. When that sole missiles hits, it is just that.
It is a sad fact from framerate performances perspective that all those 4 missiles are separate entities and calculated as such.
Ahh the inertial dampeners are back to normal! ^ ^
Thank you.
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
7538
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Posted - 2015.02.19 01:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
It's posts like this that allow me to justify having you on my list.
Put your flags up in the sky.
And wave them side to side.
Show the world where you're from.
Show the world we are one.
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Darken-Soul
BIG BAD W0LVES
2124
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Posted - 2015.02.19 01:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Darken-Soul wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Thumb Green wrote:How can you complain about HAV survivability against SL and then say SL vs DS is okay? The main advantage ADSs have over land vehicles is they can disengage much quicker and cannot be followed to the extent tanks can. But then again it's far easier for tanks to use terrain and buildings for cover. At first thought it might feel the opposite, but it really is that way. Swarms travel thru terrain and corners. Also if one missile makes it thru you take full damage. 1st point depends on map and the terrain in question. 2nd point is not true: often swarm user launches with terrain close to him and only 1-3 missiles fly out. When that sole missiles hits, it is just that. It is a sad fact from framerate performances perspective that all those 4 missiles are separate entities and calculated as such.
You must tank on paper. Ive been at 1700 plus and ganked by one missile.
Who wants some?
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LUGMOS
Corrosive Synergy
RISE of LEGION
2189
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Posted - 2015.02.19 01:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Darken-Soul wrote:You must tank on paper. Ive been at 1700 plus and ganked by one missile.
Nope, they are all separate.
1000% sure.
Official QuafeGäó Advocate
Anti-FoTM Prof. V
Forum Scavenger Prof. V
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Darken-Soul
BIG BAD W0LVES
2124
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Posted - 2015.02.19 02:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
LUGMOS wrote:Darken-Soul wrote:You must tank on paper. Ive been at 1700 plus and ganked by one missile. Nope, they are all separate. 1000% sure.
It's simple then. The animation and the actual missiles are not correct. I've tanked half a barrage for a fellow tanker. U take 0 he takes a kill shot. From the 1 or 2 missiles that hit He should have lived.
I tank almost every match. There are tons of inconsistencies with swarms. The missiles doing separate damage is not one. If a single missile hits you its as if all hit you.
Who wants some?
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1774
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Posted - 2015.02.19 02:04:00 -
[25] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:It's posts like this that allow me to justify having you on my list.
Oh nice.
Who are you?
Never mind, does not matter.
Ahh the inertial dampeners are back to normal! ^ ^
Thank you.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1774
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Posted - 2015.02.19 02:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
Darken-Soul wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:
1st point depends on map and the terrain in question.
2nd point is not true: often swarm user launches with terrain close to him and only 1-3 missiles fly out. When that sole missiles hits, it is just that.
It is a sad fact from framerate performances perspective that all those 4 missiles are separate entities and calculated as such.
You must tank on paper. Ive been at 1700 plus and ganked by one missile.
How often?
All the time, on occasion, sometimes, rarely?
If rarely or even sometimes the chances are there was combined volley.
I have the luxury of replaying my matches, so in every case of (near)instaboom I check them. Usually it was a well co-ordinated or lucky volleys by several ppl.
Ahh the inertial dampeners are back to normal! ^ ^
Thank you.
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Darken-Soul
BIG BAD W0LVES
2124
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Posted - 2015.02.19 02:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Darken-Soul wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:
1st point depends on map and the terrain in question.
2nd point is not true: often swarm user launches with terrain close to him and only 1-3 missiles fly out. When that sole missiles hits, it is just that.
It is a sad fact from framerate performances perspective that all those 4 missiles are separate entities and calculated as such.
You must tank on paper. Ive been at 1700 plus and ganked by one missile. How often? All the time, on occasion, sometimes, rarely? If rarely or even sometimes the chances are there was combined volley. I have the luxury of replaying my matches, so in every case of (near)instaboom I check them. Usually it was a well co-ordinated or lucky volleys by several ppl.
Here's one example. 82 and I were out on the bridge map. Proto Swarm on the blueb cookers. 1 guy. 82 heading south over bridge. I watch the swarms smash into stanchions over the vridge. He still takes a kill shot.
every match is littered with silly little things like this.
Who wants some?
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m621 zma
296
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Posted - 2015.02.19 02:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
Using swarms alone it takes me 2 full clips of a proto SL on a double DMG modded min commando to take down your gunloggi (provided you don't missile me or rep/run away or get out and shoot me/forge gun me)
Sorry to hear you're not indestructible, be grateful you don't use a Madrugar. Now HTFU.  |
Darken-Soul
BIG BAD W0LVES
2124
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Posted - 2015.02.19 02:23:00 -
[29] - Quote
m621 zma wrote:Using swarms alone it takes me 2 full clips of a proto SL on a double DMG modded min commando to take down your gunloggi (provided you don't missile me or run away or get out and shoot me/forge gun me) Sorry to hear you're not indestructible, be grateful you don't use a Madrugar. Now HTFU.
I am a maddy pilot. Or soma. Shields are for defense. I accel at offense, distraction, and vehicle removal.
Who wants some?
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Cody Sietz
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
4394
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Posted - 2015.02.19 02:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
#InB4SparksComesInAndSpotHatefulCommentsAtAnyoneWhoRemotelySaysAnythingNot100PercentProVehicleOrSlightlyForAVInAnyway
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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