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Jathniel
G I A N T
1426
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Posted - 2015.01.15 07:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
A good suggestion made a long time ago, was introducing a small damage threshold that needs to be broken, to prevent shields from regenerating under fire. I encourage such a fix.
I would suggest putting this 'prevention threshold' at about 100 damage. At a distance, very low damage won't stop regeneration, and up close, you'll need to put 3-4 rounds in with an AR, and really get some good hits in with an HMG or SMG, to stop the regen.
This will help higher alpha weapons to shine at range like they should, rather than CRs.
I would also suggest removing headshot damage multipliers while shields are up and active. The concept of headshot vulnerability revolves around the deficiencies of armor, not energy shielding. Why would energy shielding be weaker around the cranium, than it would around the hand or leg? Considering the volatile nature of shields in this game, they shouldn't have so critical a weakness. So I would suggest a modifier that negates headshot damage multipliers, but gradually allows them as shields level drop; so that actually shooting at a shielded targets head isn't totally useless. When armor is finally exposed 100% of your weapon's headshot bonus is available.
I would also recommend removing the Recharge Delay penalties that exist on Shield Extenders, and increasing the recharging power of Energizers by 20% of their current bonus (read: BY 20% of the CURRENT bonus, NOT 20 actual percentage points).
I also recommend improving the performance of Shield Regulators by 30% of their current numbers, for serious shield bounce back delay.
These changes will allow shields to be VERY fearsome to face with their recharge speed, and give them unprecedented dominance in open field combat. To kill a shielder efficiently, you will need higher alpha at range, eagle eye accuracy, or you will need to close distance.
TL;DR - Damage threshold to prevent shield recharge. - Dampener on headshot damage received until shields depleted. - Removal of recharge delay penalty on extenders. - Buffing recharge power of Energizers by 20% of current numbers. - Buffing shield regulators by 30% of their current numbers.
Retired
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Breakin Stuff
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
6440
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Posted - 2015.01.15 11:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yes to 100 point threshold
No to shields blocking headshot damage.
Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
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All Gucci
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance
64
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Posted - 2015.01.15 11:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
You wasted you time typing up this? lmfao no that is just stupid as hell If sheilds get a damage threshhod then armor regen needs to be increased by 2 complex armor reps worth.
Emperor Gucci
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
2386
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Posted - 2015.01.15 13:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
All Gucci wrote:You wasted you time typing up this? lmfao no that is just stupid as hell If sheilds get a damage threshhod then armor regen needs to be increased by 2 complex armor reps worth. How exactly do you justify your unreasonable demand? You do realize that passive shield regen through damage already has a precedent in New Eden right?
Amarr/Minmatar vehicles are OP (especially Minmatar speed tanks)
^The reason why CCP is afraid to release them
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HOLY PERFECTION
G.L.O.R.Y General Tso's Alliance
7
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Posted - 2015.01.15 14:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:A good suggestion made a long time ago, was introducing a small damage threshold that needs to be broken, to prevent shields from regenerating under fire. I encourage such a fix.
I would suggest putting this 'prevention threshold' at about 100 damage. At a distance, very low damage won't stop regeneration, and up close, you'll need to put 3-4 rounds in with an AR, and really get some good hits in with an HMG or SMG, to stop the regen.
This will help higher alpha weapons to shine at range like they should, rather than CRs.
I would also suggest removing headshot damage multipliers while shields are up and active. The concept of headshot vulnerability revolves around the deficiencies of armor, not energy shielding. Why would energy shielding be weaker around the cranium, than it would around the hand or leg? Considering the volatile nature of shields in this game, they shouldn't have so critical a weakness. So I would suggest a modifier that negates headshot damage multipliers, but gradually allows them as shields level drop; so that actually shooting at a shielded targets head isn't totally useless. When armor is finally exposed 100% of your weapon's headshot bonus is available.
I would also recommend removing the Recharge Delay penalties that exist on Shield Extenders, and increasing the recharging power of Energizers by 20% of their current bonus (read: BY 20% of the CURRENT bonus, NOT 20 actual percentage points).
I also recommend improving the performance of Shield Regulators by 30% of their current numbers, for serious shield bounce back delay.
These changes will allow shields to be VERY fearsome to face with their recharge speed, and give them unprecedented dominance in open field combat. To kill a shielder efficiently, you will need higher alpha at range, eagle eye accuracy, or you will need to close distance.
TL;DR - Damage threshold to prevent shield recharge. - Dampener on headshot damage received until shields depleted. - Removal of recharge delay penalty on extenders. - Buffing recharge power of Energizers by 20% of current numbers. - Buffing shield regulators by 30% of their current numbers.
Really shields and armor is not expose to be balanced. they have different roles
GO BIG OR GO HOME!
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Zene Ren
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
93
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Posted - 2015.01.15 14:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
the only thing i would change would be to equalize shield normal/advanced/prototype extender and armor plates values and add a signature penalty to shield extenders like armor plate has with movement speed, nothing more nothing less IMO
that would be enough to balance shield tanking and armor tanking IMO ofc
have a nice day
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Jathniel
G I A N T
1428
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Posted - 2015.01.15 14:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
All Gucci wrote:You wasted you time typing up this? lmfao no that is just stupid as hell If sheilds get a damage threshhod then armor regen needs to be increased by 2 complex armor reps worth.
The damage threshold is needed to break regen. NOT to prevent damage to a fully charged shield.
You don't see it as unreasonable that a round that does NO damage, is able to completely stop a shield from recharging?
Retired
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
4398
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Posted - 2015.01.15 15:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Damage threshold is perfectly reasonable. The shields still need to take damage but there should be a minimum amount of DPS needed to stop the regen as not to make random stray shots totally screw a player over. Should it be 100 DPS? Ehhh devil is in the details but the concept is solid enough.
I understand where you're going with the rest of your proposals, and I think most of them are reasonable (except the headshot damage one). However I'd suggest we start with just the damage threshold and then see where things land before making further changes. Don't want to overbuff shields and end up with the opposite problem yeah?
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Jonny D Buelle
Mors Effera
426
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Posted - 2015.01.15 15:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:A good suggestion made a long time ago, was introducing a small damage threshold that needs to be broken, to prevent shields from regenerating under fire. I encourage such a fix.
I would suggest putting this 'prevention threshold' at about 100 damage. At a distance, very low damage won't stop regeneration, and up close, you'll need to put 3-4 rounds in with an AR, and really get some good hits in with an HMG or SMG, to stop the regen.
This will help higher alpha weapons to shine at range like they should, rather than CRs.
I would also suggest removing headshot damage multipliers while shields are up and active. The concept of headshot vulnerability revolves around the deficiencies of armor, not energy shielding. Why would energy shielding be weaker around the cranium, than it would around the hand or leg? Considering the volatile nature of shields in this game, they shouldn't have so critical a weakness. So I would suggest a modifier that negates headshot damage multipliers, but gradually allows them as shields level drop; so that actually shooting at a shielded targets head isn't totally useless. When armor is finally exposed 100% of your weapon's headshot bonus is available.
I would also recommend removing the Recharge Delay penalties that exist on Shield Extenders, and increasing the recharging power of Energizers by 20% of their current bonus (read: BY 20% of the CURRENT bonus, NOT 20 actual percentage points).
I also recommend improving the performance of Shield Regulators by 30% of their current numbers, for serious shield bounce back delay.
These changes will allow shields to be VERY fearsome to face with their recharge speed, and give them unprecedented dominance in open field combat. To kill a shielder efficiently, you will need higher alpha at range, eagle eye accuracy, or you will need to close distance.
TL;DR - Damage threshold to prevent shield recharge. - Dampener on headshot damage received until shields depleted. - Removal of recharge delay penalty on extenders. - Buffing recharge power of Energizers by 20% of current numbers. - Buffing shield regulators by 30% of their current numbers.
I agree with all but two things.
The first being dampener on headshot while shields are up. Though this is good in theory, in the practical sense you will tip the balance in favor of Caldari suits.
Amarr and Gallentes would get eaten apart a lot faster if this was to be implemented due to their low shields. Matari will be fine they can out strafe almost anything.
The other is removing the recharge penalty on the shield extenders.
I know it's a pain but shields can recharge faster than armor if you do it right. I'm speaking passively of course.
I would be okay with the removal of the recharge penalty IF it was temporary and would be replaced of and when they make a Shield Enegizer Tool (Rep tool for shields only) or a Hybrid Rep/Enegizer Tool.
Drink until you can't drink no more. Then grab another bottle and drink some more! - Demetrious 'Jonny' Buelle.
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Jathniel
G I A N T
1428
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Posted - 2015.01.15 15:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Seems everyone got caught up with the headshot modifier.
It was meant to work as a system of 'the more damage done to the shield, the more damage done to the head'. And was meant as a sweetener for shields. Something that makes them appealing and important to consider, even for armor suits. Just as armor reps can be considered universally important. Shield regulation, getting your shields back would be considered universally important. A way of better protecting your head, and being able to shave damage off of a few initial rounds.
EDIT: Considering long range combat is something that the Caldari specialize in, I would imagine, they would make sure that sufficient protection exists.
The dampening would be percentage based. The percent of shield HP remaining = the percent of headshot damage dampened.
This would make Caldari and Min suits especially ideal for open field and ranged combat.
Retired
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Breakin Stuff
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
6449
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Posted - 2015.01.15 15:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Seems everyone got caught up with the headshot modifier.
It was meant to work as a system of 'the more damage done to the shield, the more damage done to the head'. And was meant as a sweetener for shields. Something that makes them appealing and important to consider, even for armor suits. Just as armor reps can be considered universally important. Shield regulation, getting your shields back would be considered universally important. A way of better protecting your head, and being able to shave damage off of a few initial rounds.
We understand what you're getting at, but honestly the tgreshold is a solid idea. Even at 50 or so that keeps almost anything but a viziam scram from stopping it with a stray shot.
I like 100 better. Hitting 100 is trivial but yet meaningful.
Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
4398
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Posted - 2015.01.15 15:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Seems everyone got caught up with the headshot modifier.
It was meant to work as a system of 'the more damage done to the shield, the more damage done to the head'. And was meant as a sweetener for shields. Something that makes them appealing and important to consider, even for armor suits. Just as armor reps can be considered universally important. Shield regulation, getting your shields back would be considered universally important. A way of better protecting your head, and being able to shave damage off of a few initial rounds.
EDIT: Considering long range combat is something that the Caldari specialize in, I would imagine, they would make sure that sufficient protection exists.
The dampening would be percentage based. The percent of shield HP remaining = the percent of headshot damage dampened.
This would make Caldari and Min suits especially ideal for open field and ranged combat.
I get what you're going for but your reason of "because lore" doesn't really justify it. Bonus damage to head shields makes as much sense as bonus damage to head armor. Armor is not your health, armor just protects you from taking damage. In fact you can actually survive with essentially 0 armor because that last bullet didn't actually punch through your armor into your meaty bits.
My point is, does it make sense that shields are weaker on the head? Meh...not really? But the same holds true for armor....so it doesn't make sense to me that one would be deficient but the other would not.
Buffing shields is a good idea and I applaud you for trying to be creative, but I just don't think the headshot one makes sense.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
2387
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Posted - 2015.01.15 15:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
I actually like the headshot one and I think it makes sense as well.
However, I can also see where the other argument is coming from.
I can agree with both sides though I do think that a reasonable compromise could be reached.
It makes me think about 50 cent talking about having a bulletproof baseball cap and saying that the doctor said he'd still get a concussion but a concussion is still better than a hole in his head.
Amarr/Minmatar vehicles are OP (especially Minmatar speed tanks)
^The reason why CCP is afraid to release them
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
2223
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Posted - 2015.01.15 15:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'd say just start with the threshold. But not 100. Start with 25-75 depending on frame size, with the larger frames receiving the larger threshold. A Scrambler bolt would and should halt the regen, but a CR round or two would be shrugged off most times.
Never with the headshot thing. What use would the Scrambler Pistol even be at all if this was implemented? Rewarding precision shots is a staple among FPSs, and adding a feature like this would only detract from the game.
Home at Last <3
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Jathniel
G I A N T
1433
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Posted - 2015.01.17 00:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Thanks for the feedback all.
I usually just feel these balances out intuitively.
Caldari suits are far from useless, but they are still disadvantaged at this point.
I still see shield regulation and shield recharge speeds as areas that could be helped, in particular.
I felt that 100 damage as the threshold to break regen is ideal. At absolute ranges, weapons like the TAR and Scrambler won't be able to simply stop a regen. The entire intention was to give the shield suits a definite and measurable advantage in long range/open field combat; where light weapons are generally fighting at the edge of their optimals, and shield suits would essentially, if played properly, have an additional 100 hp, thanks to the threshold.
Up close, 100hp means nothing, and the threshold won't even be there, unless the shield is actively trying to regen. But at range, this will give shield suits a little room to breathe against laser and plasma weapons; AND make people think twice about trying to engage them with projectile weapons.
Retired
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Cavani1EE7
Murphys-Law
860
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Posted - 2015.01.17 15:38:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jathniel wrote: TL;DR - Damage threshold to prevent shield recharge. YES - Dampener on headshot damage received until shields depleted. No - Removal of recharge delay penalty on extenders. No - Buffing recharge power of Energizers by 20% of current numbers. No, 20% buff is too much - Buffing shield regulators by 30% of their current numbers. Yes
10100111001
Shield tanking is hard mode /period.
10100111001
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Cavani1EE7
Murphys-Law
860
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Posted - 2015.01.17 15:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:I'd say just start with the threshold. But not 100. Start with 25-75 depending on frame size, with the larger frames receiving the larger threshold.A Scrambler bolt would and should halt the regen reason?
10100111001
Shield tanking is hard mode /period.
10100111001
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Breakin Stuff
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
6549
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Posted - 2015.01.17 15:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cavani1EE7 wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:I'd say just start with the threshold. But not 100. Start with 25-75 depending on frame size, with the larger frames receiving the larger threshold.A Scrambler bolt would and should halt the regen reason? a scrambler bolt can kill you in one shot if you aim it correctly. Why is this a concern?
Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
3554
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Posted - 2015.01.17 15:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
1. Threshold should be 10% of total shields. An amarr suit shouldn't have the same threshold as a Caldari 2. +1 to rechargers, energizers, and regulators buff. Its necessary ATM for the regen between shield and armor to be balanced. 3. Weapon profiles need to be looked at. Id like to change them around to +5/-5 for plasma, -5/+5 for rail, -10/+10 for projectile, +10/-10 for scrambler, -15/+15 for explosive, and +15/-15 for beam laser.
"Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms.
FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ
I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
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Cavani1EE7
Murphys-Law
860
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Posted - 2015.01.17 15:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Cavani1EE7 wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:I'd say just start with the threshold. But not 100. Start with 25-75 depending on frame size, with the larger frames receiving the larger threshold.A Scrambler bolt would and should halt the regen reason? a scrambler bolt can kill you in one shot if you aim it correctly. Why is this a concern? ikr? I don't think he means the charged shot as it's obvious that it would stop the regen.
10100111001
Shield tanking is hard mode /period.
10100111001
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Breakin Stuff
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
6552
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Posted - 2015.01.17 15:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
Cavani1EE7 wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Cavani1EE7 wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:I'd say just start with the threshold. But not 100. Start with 25-75 depending on frame size, with the larger frames receiving the larger threshold.A Scrambler bolt would and should halt the regen reason? a scrambler bolt can kill you in one shot if you aim it correctly. Why is this a concern? ikr? I don't think he means the charged shot as it's obvious that it would stop the regen.
so would a proficiency 3 viziam scrambler rifle shot. You'd be doing well over 100 damage per shot vs. shields. And no, I'm not referring to the charge shot.
Viziam ScR baselines at about 106 vs. my sentinel if I remember the math correctly
Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
20841
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Posted - 2015.01.17 16:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
I suggest damage thresholds be more variable than a flat 100.
To weaken dual tanking, I would like to see this stat be significantly weaker on Amarr and Gallente suits than it is on Caldari and Minmatar suits.
Sometimes, one just has an overwhelming urge to throw a potato at someone.
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BL4CKST4R
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3526
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Posted - 2015.01.17 18:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
I was agreeing with you until halfway through when you suggest shields to be OP. Since I disagree with half your post... No.
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
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All Gucci
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance
65
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Posted - 2015.01.17 20:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
My justification is you don't need any extra mods to regen your primary health: shields.... although armor suits have to sacrifice a low slot to have reps....2 two have good reps.....3 if you feel like having no health unless you stack armor plates and be a sitting duck for everyone who can point and press r1.... if this shield threshold idea becomes a reality the armor suit need to get at least 8hp per second reps and a lower shield delay
Emperor Gucci
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Jathniel
G I A N T
1439
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Posted - 2015.01.17 20:56:00 -
[25] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:1. Threshold should be 10% of total shields. An amarr suit shouldn't have the same threshold as a Caldari 2. +1 to rechargers, energizers, and regulators buff. Its necessary ATM for the regen between shield and armor to be balanced. 3. Weapon profiles need to be looked at. Id like to change them around to +5/-5 for plasma, -5/+5 for rail, -10/+10 for projectile, +10/-10 for scrambler, -15/+15 for explosive, and +15/-15 for beam laser.
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I suggest damage thresholds be more variable than a flat 100.
To weaken dual tanking, I would like to see this stat be significantly weaker on Amarr and Gallente suits than it is on Caldari and Minmatar suits.
The idea of the threshold being a percentage of your total shields, is a solid one; and I actually DID consider it.
I felt that 10% was a bit too low... At that level, you would barely see a difference for proto Cal assaults and heavies; and the threshold would be next to non-existent for any other shield suit. I then considered 20%, and while that worked for weaker suits ("weaker" = anyone under 500 shield HP, by my standard), it clearly went over the top with Cal assaults and heavies. You would probably be looking at damage threshold barriers in excess of 100, 120, and maybe even 150 HP or more. Factor in, recharger and regulator bonuses, and thresholds like that are simply too high. I'm not the best at math, I'm going entirely by intuition here.
I settled on a flat 100 damage being the requirement for the threshold, because most utility light weapons, need to throw a few rounds downwind to hit that total. Especially at range, at the edge of their optimals. Additionally, while AT range the damage fall off for laser and plasma won't be too significant vs. shields; But, AT range, projectile and rail will find themselves at a disadvantage against the regen, IF they don't stay on point, because damage profiles still apply. You will NOT break a skilled player's shields at range easily. In fact, if they perform their movements correctly from cover, they would be able to juggle their regeneration threshold, and hold out indefinitely while periodically returning fire. This is intended.
But if the flat 100 HP is problem... and I can see where it can be (particularly with strafers)
I have a better idea:
We can use range + damage profiles as a means of controlling the threshold. - If your on-screen readout reads <100%, you will not break the threshold. - If your on-screen readout reads >100% the threshold will not take effect.
This will have the effect of making shield threshold effective at all ranges vs. anti-armor weapons, and maintaining shield weakness to anti-shield weapons UNLESS at long range.
The threshold remains at 100HP
How does that sound?
Retired
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Fizzer XCIV
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
2279
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Posted - 2015.01.17 21:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Cavani1EE7 wrote:Fizzer XCIV wrote:I'd say just start with the threshold. But not 100. Start with 25-75 depending on frame size, with the larger frames receiving the larger threshold.A Scrambler bolt would and should halt the regen reason? a scrambler bolt can kill you in one shot if you aim it correctly. Why is this a concern? If its a scout, sure. Under no circumstances can a charge shot kill anything more than a lightly tanked assault suit in one shot. Not even Caldari ones. A Proficiency 5 Viziam with 2 CX damage mods on a Amarr Commando, while delivering a charged headshot...
433.6 Raw Damage. 585.4 Shield Damage. 364.9 Armor Damage.
So, no. You aren't getting OHK'd unless you're in something small.
Home at Last <3
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
20870
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Posted - 2015.01.18 21:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jathniel wrote: -snip much discussion of what the threshold should be-
There is such a thing as overcomplicating matters.
Just having base suit numbers for thresholds will do fine, I think. The only complication that might be worth looking into would be regulators - would they affect the threshold?
In the end, I don't think the exact numbers matter much. It's more to prevent the odd plink from preventing shield recharge completely.
Sometimes, one just has an overwhelming urge to throw a potato at someone.
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Jathniel
G I A N T
1439
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Posted - 2015.01.19 17:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Jathniel wrote: -snip much discussion of what the threshold should be-
There is such a thing as overcomplicating matters. Just having base suit numbers for thresholds will do fine, I think. The only complication that might be worth looking into would be regulators - would they affect the threshold? In the end, I don't think the exact numbers matter much. It's more to prevent the odd plink from preventing shield recharge completely.
One way or another we have to do something.
Shields really don't need a lot to be more effective and appealing to use. It's all in the regen.
There's another thread discussing the AR, because people think there's something wrong with it, when it's actually stronger today than it has EVER been (minus range).
Here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=187964
And Rattati is frustrated because he's been throwing buffs at it, when the problem is the armor meta, NOT the gun. The AR and SCR wreck shields like there's no tmr. These guns are functioning as intended.
But some people are seriously talking about giving it more buffs, or worse, shaking up the entire damage profile system (which will complicate balance across the board).
If we could just see numbers to see how many people are running armor suits, and if we make shielders more effective and appealing, then we would see a lot of players shift back to running shields... in turn the AR would have more things to shine against.
Retired
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