DUST Search - [Request] Going Prone

Nova Knife wrote:

I am an avid fan of sniping, but I was very glad prone was not implemented. Prone like you just said, promotes hiding and forcing enemies to seek you out. The problem in dust that the enemies generally don't care to seek out a hiding sniper as there is plenty of cover and snipers are generally off outside of the fight, and it's generally more useful to let them stay there and get like 3 kills a round without really helping their team much.

I see it already in skirmish, whenever the attacking team takes the first two objectives, there is a ton of snipers just sitting on the hillls near the clone reserves, not actually helping guard their teammates from people attempting to take back the control points.
Snipers in dust still have not gotten used to the playstyle and pace, and thus are taking themselves too far out of the fight when they should be much much closer. Think midrange urban sniping as opposed to longrange warfare!

Hiding is bad in shooter games, almost without exceptions. It's both boring and generally unhelpful, a game like dust is about fast paced, hectic battles. Midrange, highly mobile snipers are in their prime for this. The snipers don't really look or feel like they were meant for longrange at all. I've seen a lot of snipers who don't even move when they are taking damage, standing in the same spots every round, etc. These are the main reasons snipers get more deaths than kills in most games I have seen!

Dust is a game meant for moving :)

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[Veteran_Regneir] 0	Posted - 2012.05.19 14:14:00 - [1] - Quote A full prone feature tied into the crouching system would be nice. More so for snipers than anything else, one of the main things to sniping is trying to remain unseen and crouched you are still leaving your head out into the open. A system in which you simply hold the crouch button to go prone would be nice and simple. Thank you and keep up the good work.
[Veteran_Terax Madrait] 0	Posted - 2012.05.19 16:56:00 - [2] - Quote Regneir wrote: A full prone feature tied into the crouching system would be nice. More so for snipers than anything else, one of the main things to sniping is trying to remain unseen and crouched you are still leaving your head out into the open. A system in which you simply hold the crouch button to go prone would be nice and simple. Thank you and keep up the good work. Yes, i would agree with this.
[Veteran_Jhun kiyntash] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 09:18:00 - [3] - Quote Also agreed plus the game terain/environment does not really allow for finding good prone sniping spots either; through holes in railings high ground, hidden spots etc. The advantage for the sniper (game balance) should be that it's up to his oponent(s) to seek him out by looking for his muzzle flashes? otherwise game showing good potential and emersive involvement content so far.
[Veteran_Nova Knife] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 09:35:00 - [4] - Quote I am an avid fan of sniping, but I was very glad prone was not implemented. Prone like you just said, promotes hiding and forcing enemies to seek you out. The problem in dust that the enemies generally don't care to seek out a hiding sniper as there is plenty of cover and snipers are generally off outside of the fight, and it's generally more useful to let them stay there and get like 3 kills a round without really helping their team much. I see it already in skirmish, whenever the attacking team takes the first two objectives, there is a ton of snipers just sitting on the hillls near the clone reserves, not actually helping guard their teammates from people attempting to take back the control points. Snipers in dust still have not gotten used to the playstyle and pace, and thus are taking themselves too far out of the fight when they should be much much closer. Think midrange urban sniping as opposed to longrange warfare! Hiding is bad in shooter games, almost without exceptions. It's both boring and generally unhelpful, a game like dust is about fast paced, hectic battles. Midrange, highly mobile snipers are in their prime for this. The snipers don't really look or feel like they were meant for longrange at all. I've seen a lot of snipers who don't even move when they are taking damage, standing in the same spots every round, etc. These are the main reasons snipers get more deaths than kills in most games I have seen! Dust is a game meant for moving :)
[Veteran_Deus Necare] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 09:52:00 - [5] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: I am an avid fan of sniping, but I was very glad prone was not implemented. Prone like you just said, promotes hiding and forcing enemies to seek you out. The problem in dust that the enemies generally don't care to seek out a hiding sniper as there is plenty of cover and snipers are generally off outside of the fight, and it's generally more useful to let them stay there and get like 3 kills a round without really helping their team much. I see it already in skirmish, whenever the attacking team takes the first two objectives, there is a ton of snipers just sitting on the hillls near the clone reserves, not actually helping guard their teammates from people attempting to take back the control points. Snipers in dust still have not gotten used to the playstyle and pace, and thus are taking themselves too far out of the fight when they should be much much closer. Think midrange urban sniping as opposed to longrange warfare! Hiding is bad in shooter games, almost without exceptions. It's both boring and generally unhelpful, a game like dust is about fast paced, hectic battles. Midrange, highly mobile snipers are in their prime for this. The snipers don't really look or feel like they were meant for longrange at all. I've seen a lot of snipers who don't even move when they are taking damage, standing in the same spots every round, etc. These are the main reasons snipers get more deaths than kills in most games I have seen! Dust is a game meant for moving :) Well that's not really an issue if you think about it: if they're busy being idiots and killwhoring, they're not being useful to the team. When I'd snipe in MAG, if we were on the defense, sure, I'd find a nice perch and take all the incoming troops out from a distance, but when there was a need to relocate (defuse the bomb, resecure a terminal, etc.) I was moving. If we were on the attack, I was rocking a ghetto-grip and a semi-auto rifle instead, and being right on the front lines with the squad, and doing so to great effect. If you play like that, it's not an issue, if you sit and killwhore, you're a non-factor in the match. I would definitely agree with adding prone, though, at least on the scout suits (and while prohibiting it on the Heavies). It simply makes sense, and it always feels artificial when you're being forced to stick a mile out in the open, because all you can do is duck down half a meter. And before someone whinges about MAG "dolphin dive," what the hell do you think we're trained to do in RL? Heck, in combat training they even made us shout it as we're doing it: "I'm up, they see me, I'm down" for getting up, sprinting a couple seconds, then diving back down, so you don't leave yourself an easy target.
[Veteran_greenoak] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 10:14:00 - [6] - Quote I think in Dust you have to think of the snipers as more like squad sharpshooters, they're not much use as solo killers. Must admit given the speed most players move at I've not seen much use for them this weekend.
[Veteran_Nova Knife] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 10:17:00 - [7] - Quote Also, they have plans for cloaking devices. I'm sure that will satisfy most snipers' desire for hiding without spending dev time on prone.
[Veteran_Kushmir] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 10:17:00 - [8] - Quote yes prone is necessary.
[Veteran_Memeotis] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 10:32:00 - [9] - Quote Prone is a must, but adding it needs to be paired with CCP making the whole process of crouching/prone more smooth. If you crouch there is a very annoying delay before you can un-crouch, and the whole thing just feels choppy right now.
[Veteran_Heinz] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 10:35:00 - [10] - Quote I don't see how prone is needed. while it would offer some balance benefits to the bracing of a weapon, similar effects can be gained thru kneeling and bracing of the weapon. give the fact that we are augmented and trained clones who's mussles can achieve feats normal humans can't, like being able to go completely still thus removing the need for weapon bracing, this removes the need for a prone position.

[Veteran_Tippia] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 10:36:00 - [11] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Also, they have plans for cloaking devices. I'm sure that will satisfy most snipers' desire for hiding without spending dev time on prone. I'm of a similar mind. The stand-off nature of sniping means you already have protection by presenting a tiny target GÇö it doesn't need to be made even tinier. Combine that with the amount of cover and terrain masking that can be done and the need just isn't there. Add in cloaking (if the two can be combined without gimping your fit completely) for additional cover and higher-tier skills for the bracing effect, and the actual game-mechanics reason is already covered as well.
[Veteran_Deus Necare] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 13:56:00 - [12] - Quote Presenting a smaller target applies to more than just snipers. I would regularly go prone, regardless of weapon type, in MAG specifically to make for a smaller target, find different angles to shoot people from, and generally be more effective. This is what grenades and airstrikes are for. While it's somewhat of an issue at the moment, it won't be long before there are more aircraft flying about, and CAS is the ideal solution to a sniper. As to the cloak, yeah, it'll be nice, though it'll also need extreme balancing. At least since its' a PS3 we won't run into the issue planetside had of tweaking video settings to make cloaked enemies stand out a mile away (it's why PlanetSide2 is making it so a cloak actually removes your model, you don't exist, so no tweaking will make you visible). I am concerned about the delay between firing and recloaking, and vice versa. This will need careful tweaking to not be overpowered. I'm a lover of sniping by the way, and I still say it needs to be carefully balanced. I just think balancing to compensate for prone is the better solution than prohibiting prone entirely. Prohibiting it is artificial, lame, and hurts EVERYONE, not just snipers.
[Veteran_PUT-PROTOMAN-IN GAME] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 15:06:00 - [13] - Quote Prone has no place in a strafer. RFoM w/ 40 players had large maps no prone KZ2 had fairly large maps no prone we don't need (belly snipers in dust) pick up an assault rifle and support your team quit hiding in the hills.
[Veteran_Nova Knife] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 15:30:00 - [14] - Quote PUT-PROTOMAN-IN GAME wrote: Prone has no place in a strafer. RFoM w/ 40 players had large maps no prone KZ2 had fairly large maps no prone we don't need (belly snipers in dust) pick up an assault rifle and support your team quit hiding in the hills. This. In the style and pace of Dust as it currently is, prone would be entirely useless and generally all it does is promote hiding and not helping your team. I won't even call it camping because generally you barely see these dudes get any kills! Alternatively, we could have no prone and have the gameplay promote people actually running around killing each other. Chaos and mayhem = Exciting Lonewolf hiding = Boring
[Veteran_Deus Necare] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 15:44:00 - [15] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: PUT-PROTOMAN-IN GAME wrote: Prone has no place in a strafer. RFoM w/ 40 players had large maps no prone KZ2 had fairly large maps no prone we don't need (belly snipers in dust) pick up an assault rifle and support your team quit hiding in the hills. This. In the style and pace of Dust as it currently is, prone would be entirely useless and generally all it does is promote hiding and not helping your team. I won't even call it camping because generally you barely see these dudes get any kills! Alternatively, we could have no prone and have the gameplay promote people actually running around killing each other. Chaos and mayhem = Exciting Lonewolf hiding = Boring Which wouldn't really make for a tactical game, now would it? You seem to be advocating the opposite, Quake Arena or UT, extreme, which is also pretty failsauce. Run and gun is all well and good in TDM, but proper defensive positions very much have a place in objective-based gameplay. As I already said, sure, those tools barely get any kills, but that only makes the case: they're going to be useless either way, let them. Meanwhile let the people that actually know how to be a sniper on a team be that. And like I said, prone helps everyone, not just snipers. This isn't just a run-and-gun game, and so long as they actually make it take a moment to stand up, being prone has just as many disadvantages as advantages (you're effectively immobile, and you're helpless while standing up). Both have their place in the game, especially in objective-based game modes. Be even better if it weren't all match-based and instead were more open-world, but I'll take what I can get.
[Veteran_Tippia] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 16:06:00 - [16] - Quote The question is: what problem does it solve that isn't already solved in other ways?
[Veteran_Max Craeus] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 18:10:00 - [17] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Hiding is bad in shooter games, almost without exceptions. It's both boring and generally unhelpful, a game like dust is about fast paced, hectic battles. Midrange, highly mobile snipers are in their prime for this. The snipers don't really look or feel like they were meant for longrange at all. I've seen a lot of snipers who don't even move when they are taking damage, standing in the same spots every round, etc. These are the main reasons snipers get more deaths than kills in most games I have seen! Dust is a game meant for moving :) I have to disagree with you there. I don't see any reason why the DUST world wouldn't take advantage of snipers when appropriate. The important word there is "appropriate". It sounds like your premise is, "There are way too many selfish players who would rather sit and play sniper than to actually try to help their team win." And I would absolutely agree with that, because I've seen it plenty of times in games like Call of Duty, even going all the way back to when I played CounterStrike ("Why should I care about planting the bomb? I just want to shoot people.") However, it sounds like your conclusion is, "We should take away this whole aspect of (post)modern combat to try to force people to not be selfish." And that I disagree with wholeheartedly. There will definitely be selfish people in DUST, ad nauseum, but the matches I'm looking forward to being in are going to be played with my corporation, on behalf of my EVE corporation, and with real outcomes that are important to my EVE corporation. I'm not going to keep mercs employed who sit on a hill with a sniper rifle and let my MCC get shot to hell because they can't be bothered to actually attempt to achieve the objectives. Just like in EVE, you wouldn't keep someone around who simply refused to follow the FC's orders. And if I'm the one defending my objectives, I'd be perfectly happy if the enemy stayed away and didn't bother to try to win -- easy win for me, then. I think, once there are real consequences to winning/losing some of these matches, and once people realize those consequences, the "problem" of snipers not really participating will go away. People will go with the sniper role because it makes tactical sense. I guess that brings up a further point -- Are we getting paid for losing just because it's beta? Or will there always be some amount of money received for "participating" in a match? If the losers got no money at the end of a match, I think that alone might change some of the selfish sniper behaviors you've been seeing. ...Max
[Veteran_Anshur Fulkrieg] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 18:28:00 - [18] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: PUT-PROTOMAN-IN GAME wrote: Prone has no place in a strafer. RFoM w/ 40 players had large maps no prone KZ2 had fairly large maps no prone we don't need (belly snipers in dust) pick up an assault rifle and support your team quit hiding in the hills. This. In the style and pace of Dust as it currently is, prone would be entirely useless and generally all it does is promote hiding and not helping your team. I won't even call it camping because generally you barely see these dudes get any kills! Alternatively, we could have no prone and have the gameplay promote people actually running around killing each other. Chaos and mayhem = Exciting Lonewolf hiding = Boring I usualy play the sniper, but I guard key locations or take the clone facilities. I watch the squad mates run ahead while I shoot at anything they may encounter. Or soften up heavies, having a knack at reading the battle field is a huge plus as well. I find the assault rifles to be to clumsy to use and the straffing does my head in when using a controler. Not sure how people manage to straff and shoot straight with them. Give me a keyboard and mouse and I may change my mind about assault rifles and heavies.
[Veteran_Golem Melog] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 19:43:00 - [19] - Quote It does seem slightly unreal not to have prone imo. But I must say that I am with Nova Knife on this one. If we are to have covert-ops type suits in the future, then there is no need. We'll just have to keep moving :)
[Veteran_Isaac Bara] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 20:08:00 - [20] - Quote Personally, I'd like to see the whole speed of the game be dropped a little and the ability to go prone added (I'm kinda tired of run 'n gun FPSs), though I guess I should wait and see what the next few updates bring before I finalize that opinion.

[Veteran_knight dt] 0	Posted - 2012.05.20 20:14:00 - [21] - Quote I'm not a sniper (in FPS games) I do, however, very much support the idea of being able to go prone and any other means of taking cover. As long as you can't dolphin in and out of prone, it has a place on most battlefields - especially objective based ones where the main facility is a fair distance away and there is a huge empty space with maybe a few small hills. There is a right way to do it... and a right way to use it. Sniping/prone isn't going to be used by everyone (apparently Nova Knife and PUT-PROTOMAN-IN-GAME wouldn't need to use it). It should make you harder to hit and harder to see by a little; but it should take some effort to get in and out of prone position and maybe limit how quick you can turn around. DUST should be a tactical game with options for people who want to plan, coordinate... it should NOT be just another run-of-the-mill and run and gun, shoot-em-up indiscriminately, I don't even care which side I'm on, strafer. Although people who want to play that way can certainly be accommodated, we have enough of those already. Of all the reasons to argue for excluding something I haven't seen a good reason to exclude going prone. Is it unfair? Is it unrealistic (this is fantasy so who cares)? Do you just not like it? That last one seems to be the only argument and while I respectfully disagree - you certainly have every right to express your preference. My vote is with the original post.
[Veteran_Nome of Legend] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 01:47:00 - [22] - Quote Quoting myself here from the .org forums. Quote: Prone isn't for snipers - it's for anyone and everyone. It's for people taking cover, or lining up a shot, or reducing your head-on silhouette, or moving undetected. It's for crawling through scrub brush to pop up and over a wall, guns blazing. It's useful in EVERY style of play, and the idea that a modern FPS would lack it is like that fps lacking jumping, as far as I'm concerned. There's a reason why every gunpowder military in the history of the world has trained in fighting from the prone position. It increases your accuracy and the stability of your weapon, it decreases your silhouette, it makes you harder to see and harder to shoot - it's damned useful. Moving prone, while slow, is nearly undetectable, and a field of soldiers lying in wait only to pop up and coordinate mass fire? Damned effective.
[Veteran_Rhapsodyy] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 01:54:00 - [23] - Quote PUT-PROTOMAN-IN GAME wrote: Prone has no place in a strafer. RFoM w/ 40 players had large maps no prone KZ2 had fairly large maps no prone we don't need (belly snipers in dust) pick up an assault rifle and support your team quit hiding in the hills. And remember we are playing on the same map they had at fanfest, which they said was "small" And yeah i see snipers in dust if they want to be effective rather than hiding on the mountains waaaaaaaay back there somewhere, actually in support of their squad perched somewhere providing covering fire for them as they assault a target, providing intel on enemies approaching picking them off but of actual use to their squad by being in the actual area they are fighting.
[Veteran_Senkiri Mitsuho] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 02:21:00 - [24] - Quote Actually, thinking about this, going prone is actually a good solution to prevent "snipers" from all having to run around in some sort of cov ops cloaks (which, introducing those would bring in a whole new aspect of unbalanced whining as people figured out how to fit a cloak on a heavy with a forge gun)... Everyone says they want the snipers up and "in the mix" but there's something to be said from standing back (just a little behind the very front line) and picking off those targets that are face-raping you with HMGs from behind cover...
[Veteran_Noc Tempre] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 03:43:00 - [25] - Quote Senkiri Mitsuho wrote: Actually, thinking about this, going prone is actually a good solution to prevent "snipers" from all having to run around in some sort of cov ops cloaks (which, introducing those would bring in a whole new aspect of unbalanced whining as people figured out how to fit a cloak on a heavy with a forge gun)... Everyone says they want the snipers up and "in the mix" but there's something to be said from standing back (just a little behind the very front line) and picking off those targets that are face-raping you with HMGs from behind cover... They better figure out how to balance the cloaks because I am building an entire corp division around using them
[Veteran_Senkiri Mitsuho] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 04:13:00 - [26] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Senkiri Mitsuho wrote: Actually, thinking about this, going prone is actually a good solution to prevent "snipers" from all having to run around in some sort of cov ops cloaks (which, introducing those would bring in a whole new aspect of unbalanced whining as people figured out how to fit a cloak on a heavy with a forge gun)... Everyone says they want the snipers up and "in the mix" but there's something to be said from standing back (just a little behind the very front line) and picking off those targets that are face-raping you with HMGs from behind cover... They better figure out how to balance the cloaks because I am building an entire corp division around using them +1 I'm sure we will all whine, cry, argue, and yell at each other until some semblance of "balance" is found for them. Something along the lines of the same thing they do with EVE cloaks at current (make them practically IMPOSSIBLE to fit on anything other than a cov ops ship/suit)...
[Veteran_Tripwire] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 07:52:00 - [27] - Quote Don't implement prone, the game doesn't need it and it'll only encourage more camping.
[Veteran_Gene Dravon] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 11:01:00 - [28] - Quote Sure add it, I love when people lay prone and are unable to get behind cover quickly when I spot em. Basically free kills and I do love killing snipers so very much.
[Veteran_Memeotis] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 11:31:00 - [29] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: I am an avid fan of sniping, but I was very glad prone was not implemented. Prone like you just said, promotes hiding and forcing enemies to seek you out. The problem in dust that the enemies generally don't care to seek out a hiding sniper as there is plenty of cover and snipers are generally off outside of the fight, and it's generally more useful to let them stay there and get like 3 kills a round without really helping their team much. I see it already in skirmish, whenever the attacking team takes the first two objectives, there is a ton of snipers just sitting on the hillls near the clone reserves, not actually helping guard their teammates from people attempting to take back the control points. Snipers in dust still have not gotten used to the playstyle and pace, and thus are taking themselves too far out of the fight when they should be much much closer. Think midrange urban sniping as opposed to longrange warfare! Hiding is bad in shooter games, almost without exceptions. It's both boring and generally unhelpful, a game like dust is about fast paced, hectic battles. Midrange, highly mobile snipers are in their prime for this. The snipers don't really look or feel like they were meant for longrange at all. I've seen a lot of snipers who don't even move when they are taking damage, standing in the same spots every round, etc. These are the main reasons snipers get more deaths than kills in most games I have seen! Dust is a game meant for moving :) Sniping promotes hiding, not prone. Prone is a situational ability, use it poorly you become an easy target, use it well and you may just manage to finish off that heavy that caught you off-guard.
[Veteran_Loghain Dakota] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 11:53:00 - [30] - Quote When prone was removed from Battlefield Bad Company for consoles it was done purely for hardware reasons. Apparently during long-range shootouts prone players became invisible because the game was running at 720p, and more often than not the sniper became too small on the screen to be seen. Dust seems to run at 720p (or even lower, and then up-scaled). Couple that with the huge maps that we have tried. Personally I see no reason for proning. No trailers have shown proning, and games like Halo (which Dust takes a lot of inspiration from) and Bad Company 2 work fine without proning. Not an issue.



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