DUST Search - [Request] Going Prone

Nova Knife wrote:

I am an avid fan of sniping, but I was very glad prone was not implemented. Prone like you just said, promotes hiding and forcing enemies to seek you out. The problem in dust that the enemies generally don't care to seek out a hiding sniper as there is plenty of cover and snipers are generally off outside of the fight, and it's generally more useful to let them stay there and get like 3 kills a round without really helping their team much.

I see it already in skirmish, whenever the attacking team takes the first two objectives, there is a ton of snipers just sitting on the hillls near the clone reserves, not actually helping guard their teammates from people attempting to take back the control points.
Snipers in dust still have not gotten used to the playstyle and pace, and thus are taking themselves too far out of the fight when they should be much much closer. Think midrange urban sniping as opposed to longrange warfare!

Hiding is bad in shooter games, almost without exceptions. It's both boring and generally unhelpful, a game like dust is about fast paced, hectic battles. Midrange, highly mobile snipers are in their prime for this. The snipers don't really look or feel like they were meant for longrange at all. I've seen a lot of snipers who don't even move when they are taking damage, standing in the same spots every round, etc. These are the main reasons snipers get more deaths than kills in most games I have seen!

Dust is a game meant for moving :)

For those who don't want to read the thread.

Prone = hiding. People hiding makes shooters boring and ruins the fun!

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[Veteran_xp3ll3d dust514] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 13:22:00 - [31] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: I am an avid fan of sniping, but I was very glad prone was not implemented. ... Dust is a game meant for moving :) +1
[Veteran_Nome of Legend] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 14:45:00 - [32] - Quote Tripwire wrote: Don't implement prone, the game doesn't need it and it'll only encourage more camping. Prone doesn't camp people. Campers do.
[Veteran_Mavado V Noriega] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 16:36:00 - [33] - Quote PUT-PROTOMAN-IN GAME wrote: Prone has no place in a strafer. RFoM w/ 40 players had large maps no prone KZ2 had fairly large maps no prone we don't need (belly snipers in dust) pick up an assault rifle and support your team quit hiding in the hills. This. you're already gettin cloaking stuff anyway no need for prone, GOOD snipers dont even go prone much, because it makes it easier for other counter snipers to get a headshot off as when prone u cant move about as freely. GOOD snipers are always on the move Dont think ive ever seen my snipers in BF3 lay up on their belly and snipe they are always in close proximity keeping up with the main attack force providing sniper cover and picking off key targets like those guys who think they are safe reppin their allies tanks from the behind
[Veteran_Gullegumman] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 17:05:00 - [34] - Quote So I have yet to see a good argument against prone that doesn't mostly involve "my style of play doesn't require it and since I'm awesome we should not have prone". I struggle to find a realistic explanation to why a soldier would be unable to get on his stomach if he so wants. Are there going to be people who hide using prone? Yes. Are there going to be people who hide without using prone? Yes. If for no other reason than immersion, I'd like the ability to crawl up onto a ridge with a good scope to have a look at the valley below. Added : Also, having cloak is not a reason not to have prone. They are different things with different use cases.
[Veteran_Player 0003] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 17:15:00 - [35] - Quote I have little interest in prone for a few reasons. Granted, its a fun feature to have when it is in game, but it poses many more problems from a technical/glitch standpoint than it solves. The first rule of glitch finding is this: If a game has prone, go stand in a small place and use it. Prone introduces terrible, terrible collision problems that often end up resulting in players being pushed through walls, travelling like rocket propelled grenades, and on occasion if they get vibrated while prone, permanent slant walking. From a technical aspect, I don't have any care at all for prone in this game. I would rather see resources allocated to something else. I would much rather have a 'fetal' position implemented that gives a defense bonus vs orbital bombardments and allows you to reduce your profile to better hide behind small objects. Something along the lines of 1:10 in the future vision trailer. Or even a but more embarrassing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mlVuLs_Nw&feature=player_detailpage#t=62s
[Veteran_Gaius Mahkasad] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 18:37:00 - [36] - Quote I am going to side with No Prone, I feel the maps are already designed with a great deal of cover for crouching people and this fits more with the feel of the game as current. Snipers rather than long range prone work should be more crouching and bounding behind their squadmates. Holding back but not half-mile stuff. Urban combat style. I think things will change significantly when cloaking is added. My hope is it functions similarly to BF2142 wherein it was held in the hand in place of a weapon and had a rather short activation and recharge time. It was designed as an escape, evade, and surprise ability more than a camping tool. PS: I do however want that bitching running slide crouch thing from the trailer.
[Veteran_mandrill] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 19:04:00 - [37] - Quote no to prone. For all the reasons cited above.
[Veteran_Deadly] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 19:39:00 - [38] - Quote Tippia wrote: Nova Knife wrote: Also, they have plans for cloaking devices. I'm sure that will satisfy most snipers' desire for hiding without spending dev time on prone. I'm of a similar mind. The stand-off nature of sniping means you already have protection by presenting a tiny target GÇö it doesn't need to be made even tinier. Combine that with the amount of cover and terrain masking that can be done and the need just isn't there. Add in cloaking (if the two can be combined without gimping your fit completely) for additional cover and higher-tier skills for the bracing effect, and the actual game-mechanics reason is already covered as well. Who need prone if you have cloaking. Cloaking just would need a good counter to it, like a pulse or something that decloaks for a set amount of time.
[Veteran_Venix] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 22:01:00 - [39] - Quote **Signed Prone would help all classes out a ton.
[Veteran_MUDMASTEI2] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 22:55:00 - [40] - Quote Add some terrain where prone is useful and I'll agree. Right now it's pointless to even crouch.

[Veteran_Mavado V Noriega] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 23:08:00 - [41] - Quote MUDMASTEI2 wrote: Add some terrain where prone is useful and I'll agree. Right now it's pointless to even crouch. ^^ another reason, who even crouches currently?
[Veteran_Vesta Ren] 0	Posted - 2012.05.23 23:12:00 - [42] - Quote No prone, for all the reasons above, plus this. The argument has been made that having prone will promote a more tactical game, but a game can be tactcial without involving being prone and killing people as they try and find the prone dude hidden behind a small bush. I haven't heard a good gameplay argument that hasn't/couldn't be solved with other mechanics. 1) smaller profile: Get behind some cover, there is crouch high and full height cover aplenty on all of the maps, along with ducking in and out from behind walls 2) steadier aim: Crouch already improves it, and gives you a better view of the surrounding area. 3) Stealth: Cloaking fields are going to be added for people who want to sneak around, imo going prone to hide has always just exploited foliage and debris that was added to make the game look good. 4) Imersion: War has changed, your fighting on a distant planet as an immortal soldier, why haven't the war tactics?
[Veteran_Soven Taliesyn] 0	Posted - 2012.05.24 01:41:00 - [43] - Quote i don't feel like reading all the post, but i do agree that the ability to go prone would add a new dynamic to the game.
[Veteran_Xocoyol Zaraoul] 0	Posted - 2012.05.24 02:20:00 - [44] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: MUDMASTEI2 wrote: Add some terrain where prone is useful and I'll agree. Right now it's pointless to even crouch. ^^ another reason, who even crouches currently? I do all the time when reloading. Snipers do it to help steady aim too.
[Veteran_Gullegumman] 0	Posted - 2012.05.24 04:06:00 - [45] - Quote Vesta Ren wrote: 4) Imersion: War has changed, your fighting on a distant planet as an immortal soldier, why haven't the war tactics? If you're still using a rifle, and still using arms on a torso to hold and aim it, prone is still going to make it steadier.
[Veteran_Senkiri Mitsuho] 0	Posted - 2012.05.24 04:20:00 - [46] - Quote I've actually used crouching behind cover points to some success, especially in heavy firefights within the compounds... dodging down behind a crate (while a touch on the slow side) does get you out of the line of fire (at least until they lob a grenade), but if you keep on the move (you should be able to move faster than a crawl when crouched) and come popping up around another corner... take a few shots... get back down... you can actually use crouching and stance to have a decent impact on the game... I realize most people are just... going medieval (run straight towards the enemy and hope you kill him before he kills you) at the moment... but I don't think that was the intention of the game design (maybe it's just a hangover from too many overrated FPS games that have nothing more to offer than that). I still support prone as a means of hiding (without needing a cloak) when hiding is called for, whether it be to get out of the line of fire (we might be expendable, but we're not supposed to be mindless idiots... if you're getting shot at, you do what you can to prevent that from happening further), doing recon on enemy positions, or creeping into position to pick off that bastard that is laying waste to my team with the large railgun turret... Prone has a place, just because people don't particularly like it because it doesn't suit their playstyle, doesn't mean it shouldn't be included.
[Veteran_Orion-ji Tor] 0	Posted - 2012.05.24 05:17:00 - [47] - Quote yes to prone plz, and while you're at it, add the ability to dodge roll too
[Veteran_Ubertino Maximus] 0	Posted - 2012.05.24 05:31:00 - [48] - Quote Prone is like a standard feature in FPSs these days. Plus blasting crouching snipers in the back with a shotgun is hilarious already, it'll only be funnier when they're flat on their stomach eating buckshot.
[Veteran_PUT-PROTOMAN-IN GAME] 0	Posted - 2012.05.24 05:55:00 - [49] - Quote KZ2 was a "tactical shooter" and it was PERFECTLY FINE without prone, but crouch needs to be more responsive, because as the game currently crouch is almost pointless or will get you killed.
[Veteran_Nome of Legend] 0	Posted - 2012.05.24 07:23:00 - [50] - Quote I honestly do not understand the people making the no-prone argument - I'm not being hyperbolic; I'm having a hard time comprehending the arguments against it. Why wouldn't you want to include the option of any realistic kind of mobility? Why would you want to limit yourself? To me, the benefits of prone seem obvious, and I can't glean a single negative of it from your arguments, except for an appeal to what kind of "style" the game should be. Someone make it simple for me?

[Veteran_Nome of Legend] 0	Posted - 2012.05.24 07:35:00 - [51] - Quote Quote: 1) smaller profile: Get behind some cover, there is crouch high and full height cover aplenty on all of the maps, along with ducking in and out from behind walls 2) steadier aim: Crouch already improves it, and gives you a better view of the surrounding area. 3) Stealth: Cloaking fields are going to be added for people who want to sneak around, imo going prone to hide has always just exploited foliage and debris that was added to make the game look good. 4) Imersion: War has changed, your fighting on a distant planet as an immortal soldier, why haven't the war tactics? 1) And when I'm on top of the pipe-connected building on biomass, and want to do overwatch without being spotted? The point of reducing your profile is to do so fitting the area and situation at hand - I do not snipe in Dust, and I have REPEATEDLY found myself longing for a prone in this or that location, because I was sticking out too much. 2) Yes, it does. Prone improves it further. This is standard in games and the real world - the sliding scale of balanced mobility versus stability. 3) Going prone to hide is a low-tech solution; I come from a Marine family, who generally favor those. If you can do a thing two ways, one with the equipment god gave you, and one with a bulky, expensive, easy-to-break peice of equipment... I'm always going to pick the former. Going prone doesn't make you invisible, it makes you harder to see - and harder to hit. The two are not equivalent. One is mobile perfect concealment, the other is near-stationary near-perfect cover, and near-perfect concealment. These are completely different things. 4) War tactics survive which are useful. I mentioned earlier that certain things have survived the ENTIRE HISTORY of gunpowder militaries, firing from prone being one of them. So long as weapons require some degree of stabilization, and so long as they are fired by men who are worried about getting shot in return, this is going to be a basic part of combat. --- You argue that prone could be replaced by other mechanics - I disagree, as I've gone through above, but let's for a moment assume that is the case. Let's assume that prone's job can be entirely taken over by other mechanics already present. Let me ask you this - why have more than one gun? Why not limit the game to assault rifles? They work at long and short range, and with the different variants, they can replace any other gun. Why should we have SMGs if they do almost the same thing, only weaker and faster? The answer is that the different guns are useful for different styles of play. I have never used the scrambler pistol - I prefer my breach SMG on principle - but I've been killed by it a few times, and I recognize the place it has, even if it doesn't fit in my style. Instead of limiting other peoples' styles, we must learn to adapt to defeat them. The best tactics will be passed down by the survivors. I say, include as many options as possible - the effective ones will work themselves out. Edit: Just after I finished this, I found this tidbit in one of the other threads. Quote: knifing in game is bad in general. thank god in dust it doesn't 1 hit ( at least not yet) remove the knife all together we don't need it. We can all agree, I think, that this guy isn't in the right - I'd go so far as to call him wrong. Gasp. Removing prone, as far as I'm concerned, is exactly the same.
[Veteran_Melak Veppers] 0	Posted - 2012.06.14 19:12:00 - [52] - Quote The ability to go prone would be great
[Veteran_Nova Knife] 0	Posted - 2012.06.14 19:21:00 - [53] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: I am an avid fan of sniping, but I was very glad prone was not implemented. Prone like you just said, promotes hiding and forcing enemies to seek you out. The problem in dust that the enemies generally don't care to seek out a hiding sniper as there is plenty of cover and snipers are generally off outside of the fight, and it's generally more useful to let them stay there and get like 3 kills a round without really helping their team much. I see it already in skirmish, whenever the attacking team takes the first two objectives, there is a ton of snipers just sitting on the hillls near the clone reserves, not actually helping guard their teammates from people attempting to take back the control points. Snipers in dust still have not gotten used to the playstyle and pace, and thus are taking themselves too far out of the fight when they should be much much closer. Think midrange urban sniping as opposed to longrange warfare! Hiding is bad in shooter games, almost without exceptions. It's both boring and generally unhelpful, a game like dust is about fast paced, hectic battles. Midrange, highly mobile snipers are in their prime for this. The snipers don't really look or feel like they were meant for longrange at all. I've seen a lot of snipers who don't even move when they are taking damage, standing in the same spots every round, etc. These are the main reasons snipers get more deaths than kills in most games I have seen! Dust is a game meant for moving :) For those who don't want to read the thread. Prone = hiding. People hiding makes shooters boring and ruins the fun!
[Veteran_Melak Veppers] 0	Posted - 2012.06.14 19:50:00 - [54] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Nova Knife wrote: I am an avid fan of sniping, but I was very glad prone was not implemented. Prone like you just said, promotes hiding and forcing enemies to seek you out. The problem in dust that the enemies generally don't care to seek out a hiding sniper as there is plenty of cover and snipers are generally off outside of the fight, and it's generally more useful to let them stay there and get like 3 kills a round without really helping their team much. I see it already in skirmish, whenever the attacking team takes the first two objectives, there is a ton of snipers just sitting on the hillls near the clone reserves, not actually helping guard their teammates from people attempting to take back the control points. Snipers in dust still have not gotten used to the playstyle and pace, and thus are taking themselves too far out of the fight when they should be much much closer. Think midrange urban sniping as opposed to longrange warfare! Hiding is bad in shooter games, almost without exceptions. It's both boring and generally unhelpful, a game like dust is about fast paced, hectic battles. Midrange, highly mobile snipers are in their prime for this. The snipers don't really look or feel like they were meant for longrange at all. I've seen a lot of snipers who don't even move when they are taking damage, standing in the same spots every round, etc. These are the main reasons snipers get more deaths than kills in most games I have seen! Dust is a game meant for moving :) For those who don't want to read the thread. Prone = hiding. People hiding makes shooters boring and ruins the fun! I guess it's personal preference, like most things it's about striking a balance. In most games going prone has it's disadvantages as well as its advantages. I don't think it promotes long range sniping, certainly no more than handing you a sniper rifle. In an urban situation, for example, being able to get down behind that low wall for some respite from the crossfire really helps. :)
[Veteran_Tuurn Wolfe] 0	Posted - 2012.06.15 14:31:00 - [55] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: Nova Knife wrote: I am an avid fan of sniping, but I was very glad prone was not implemented. Prone like you just said, promotes hiding and forcing enemies to seek you out. The problem in dust that the enemies generally don't care to seek out a hiding sniper as there is plenty of cover and snipers are generally off outside of the fight, and it's generally more useful to let them stay there and get like 3 kills a round without really helping their team much. I see it already in skirmish, whenever the attacking team takes the first two objectives, there is a ton of snipers just sitting on the hillls near the clone reserves, not actually helping guard their teammates from people attempting to take back the control points. Snipers in dust still have not gotten used to the playstyle and pace, and thus are taking themselves too far out of the fight when they should be much much closer. Think midrange urban sniping as opposed to longrange warfare! Hiding is bad in shooter games, almost without exceptions. It's both boring and generally unhelpful, a game like dust is about fast paced, hectic battles. Midrange, highly mobile snipers are in their prime for this. The snipers don't really look or feel like they were meant for longrange at all. I've seen a lot of snipers who don't even move when they are taking damage, standing in the same spots every round, etc. These are the main reasons snipers get more deaths than kills in most games I have seen! Dust is a game meant for moving :) For those who don't want to read the thread. Prone = hiding. People hiding makes shooters boring and ruins the fun! I'm not sure where you learned your equations, but prone certainly does not = hiding, and moreover, slowing down the pace of the battle certainly does not make it boring. In my opinion, there is nothing fun about a fustercluck of idiots running and jumping around, shooting in every direction. Most EVE players would agree with this. EVE is all about planning and using tactics, so why should DUST be any different? But all in all, I don't think that Prone would actually change gameplay by itself. I'd like to see it implemented. I'd also like for it to have the drawback of not being able to turn left and right very quickly, as that is my biggest issue with going prone while shooting in real life. Also, if you aim up too high, you can't sight your weapon. That's just logical. Get a rifle and try it some time ;)
[Veteran_Kushmir] 0	Posted - 2012.06.15 14:37:00 - [56] - Quote support prone 100%. has relevant uses in getting behind short cover, and lowering your target profile in addition to trying to stay undetected.
[Veteran_yaok888] 0	Posted - 2012.06.15 17:06:00 - [57] - Quote gotta agree with Nova Knife on this one, voting NO on prone. especially if cloaking tech is implemented as a later option.
[Veteran_Templar Two] 0	Posted - 2012.06.15 17:15:00 - [58] - Quote Why do you keep hanging onto this "prone = hiding" argument Nova Knife. Prone = prone.
vermacht Doe 93	Posted - 2012.07.12 11:32:00 - [59] - Quote Prone is a terrible idea. Especially since cloak will be in the game too. Finding a cloaked sniper will be hard enough but one with the profile of a small animal seems near impossible
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.12 12:44:00 - [60] - Quote There are times where prone doesn't translate into hiding in FPS games. Those times are when it instead translates into "dophin diving" and other cheap exploits of the hitbox system. Basically, you have 3 options: 1. Add glitchy annoying exploits that break the game once a few people start taking advantage. 2. Slow the game down, which isn't always a bad thing, but which I don't think is the point behind DUST. 3. Don't add prone. I'm voting for option 3, and for not adding prone.



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