So it's a thread about the Sagaris, yet you're talking about STD tanks? Does not compute.

its a thread about the sagaris yes. but we've now realized that we have some balancing issues that need to be addressed.

most people think that there should be an increase in the number of slots for a proto tank. an increase in slots would create a mess in terms of balance in mainly the TTK. current av and even tank weapons were balanced with current hp values. if we give more slots then obviously someone will get the bright idea to fit more hp on their tank, at which point, god mode tanks return.

what we are talking about is whether or not we can balance shield tanking vs armor tanking in a way that allows us to have more slots without creating god mode tanks again.

its easier to conceptualize this if we use current tanks and slot layouts, before moving on.

Pokey, have you ever tried tanking consistently? If not, what makes you think you know the direction vehicles should go in? We just tell you how to destroy us, not the direction infantry may go in, unless we have significant SP into infantry, which I now do. 5 PRO suits and weapons, which means I have a voice with infantry. I also love being in a tank, so I have a voice there too. If you don't have SP in vehicles, then you have no voice as far as vehicles are concerned.

Both the Marauders and Enforcers were ADV tanks. There's literally no reason they can't have the slot count of something that's ADV level.

Pokey, have you ever tried tanking consistently? If not, what makes you think you know the direction vehicles should go in? We just tell you how to destroy us, not the direction infantry may go in, unless we have significant SP into infantry, which I now do. 5 PRO suits and weapons, which means I have a voice with infantry. I also love being in a tank, so I have a voice there too. If you don't have SP in vehicles, then you have no voice as far as vehicles are concerned.

Both the Marauders and Enforcers were ADV tanks. There's literally no reason they can't have the slot count of something that's ADV level.

Because contrary to what you think Spkr Pokey current has the best break down and rebalance of the issues presenting in modern tanking.

Tanks in Dutst 514 aren't tanks, tanks that resolve with no damage vs AV fire are not tanks, tanks that regenerate their HP too quickly are not function like tanks should and I know Pokey understands that.

As pilots we cannot have the best of bother worlds. Cannot have eHP, mobility, AND regen power.

No, you really can't just ignore slots because viable tanking requires a minimum number of them, and when one tanking style requires fewer minimum slots than the other, you have to look at how it's laid out.

Also I'm going to have to disagree with your analogy. Marauders and Enforcers are no Prototype Tanks, they are Specialty Tanks. So comparing a Standard Amarr Assault with a Standard HAV and then a Prototype Amarr Assault with a Marauder, is simply incorrect. The proper analogy would be Comparing Prototype Frame Suit to a Prototype Specialty suit. The slot layout doesn't differ much, if at all, but people still prefer the Specialty Suits. Why? Because Bonuses are a substantial benefit that the Frame Suit lacks. So while I am not against the idea of increasing slot layouts for specialty vehicles (Hell the Assault Dropship has 2 *less slots* than the Standard Dropship), I also feel it is unreasonable to innately expect an increase in slots, simply because it's a specialty vehicle.

2c. The ADS in DUST, you can argue it has less slots so it can be more agile and move faster but really for a 8x skill it needs to have a bonus that reflects what it has to give up which is 1 high and low and frankly the bonus does not
2d. HAV in DUST stands for Heavily Armored Vehicle - Now when you get something more specialized its generally better in all ways than the basic HAV, thus i do expect more PG/HP/Shield/Armor/Slots, i dont expect a better turret because they are out, i dont expect a faster top speed because it has more basic HP and slots for modules but i do expect something to be worthwhile when its a x12 skill

Been tanking consistently since early closed Beta, also have all meaningful skills maxed for HAVs and LAVs, so I know a couple things.

By your logic, if Enforcers are indeed ADV tanks, then Standard Dropsuits would not receive any bonuses regardless of skill level, but ADV would, yes?

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It's fine to suggest that for this kind of skill you deserve something..... but that something does not mean massive bonuses that render a vehicle, weapon, dropsuit, etc without a fair counter.

Nor is their any value in calling yourself a user of that item if it is without counter.

In the end the best things we can do is offer each hull small HP increases, couple that it tastefully selected boosters that apply best to a specific racial groups tanking style and if required add the minimum slots possible (under the current model not desgned for high module counts) to boost eHP.

No Marauder in this game deserves more that 10-11 K eHP for any reason.

On a different note Minmatar do not dual tank. They either Shield or Armour Tank, and they do not primarily speed tank any more than any other racial groups can do equally well or better.

Cuz Slicers, cuz Crusader, cuz Succubus, cuz Tristain, cuz any ship with and MWD and a smart pilot in the pod.

So you supposedly have been tanking, yet want to severely limit an ADV tank by keeping the same slot layout? You're an idiot and should find another game to ruin.

1. The old Surya/Sagaris had its counter and its bonuses were fine for me because it required a large amount of SP to run them and also 2.5mil fully fit

2. Minmatar can do both since vehicles have no EWAR hence why the Gunlogi has a plate on it because why not and more defence against easy AV

3. If the Marauders came back how they used to be i think it would be fine

4. 10-11k EHP is only in cycles at best, if modules use is split up then its less EHP over a longer time, give me capacitors instead of these time cycles which predetermine how long i have to wait under my MCC whenever i want to do anything

1. Yes you can, lets take the 4 races, Minmatar - speed/dual tanking, Amarr - Armor tanking, Gallente - Reps, Caladri - Shields - then you can look at how many mods you have for each area such as speed, shield, armor, turret modules etc and build around that and decide on slots

2. Take vehicles - You can improve alot in a vehicle, its far bigger than a suit and requires alot more to make it work, if you take a standard tank on todays battlefield you can improve various things such as the gun/engine/suspension/radio etc and to compare a HAV to a dropsuit it has 10times the PG/CPU and require modules which require more PG/CPU than a suit module
2a. Take Planetside 2 - Every race has a Lightning tank, fast light kinda weak but they also have a specialized vehicle beyond that which is tougher and stronger and can hit harder than a Lightning tank
2b. World of Tanks - Take the Heavy tank, as you go through a nations Heavy tank tier the tank itself will generally have thicker armor, a more powerful gun, sometimes it may forfeit thicker armor for a faster movement speed and better traverse or maybe a heavy top turret to support a more powerful gun which having a weaker armor but overall the next tank in line has more HP and better stats in someway even tho there is the odd tank which is terrible than the previous tank (Churchill VII you are the worst tank ive ever used)
2c. The ADS in DUST, you can argue it has less slots so it can be more agile and move faster but really for a 8x skill it needs to have a bonus that reflects what it has to give up which is 1 high and low and frankly the bonus does not
2d. HAV in DUST stands for Heavily Armored Vehicle - Now when you get something more specialized its generally better in all ways than the basic HAV, thus i do expect more PG/HP/Shield/Armor/Slots, i dont expect a better turret because they are out, i dont expect a faster top speed because it has more basic HP and slots for modules but i do expect something to be worthwhile when its a x12 skill

Yeah, because I won't compromise enough on vehicles for infantry to be satisfied.

Again, if its an ADV tank, and receives bonuses that the STD tank does not, then by that logic, ADV dropsuits should receive bonuses, but STD should receive none. Is this what you're advocating?

Dropsuits go from STD to ADV to PRO. Along with that, they get more slots. The basic suits get no passive bonis, while the commando, sentinel, assault, logistics and scout suits all get bonuses. Why shouldn't an ADV tank get a bonus?

See Spkr?

What I told you in-game was true.

Keep complaining that AV is underpowered.

1. Ok since slots don't matter, lets assume Gunnlogi has 1/0 and Madrugar has 0/1. Gunnlogi will fit a better tank, every time, without exception under that assumption since the shield HAV will have better regen, and eHP because it can put a hardener in its 1 slot. Armor will HAVE to fit a repper, and suffer in terms of effective repping an eHP. So how would fix that? Increase armor rep rate to such an extreme that its benefit offsets the fact that it can't fit any hardeners while the 1/0 shield vehicle can. Alright so now reppers are insanely good. Now design your actual tank with 3-5 low slots. Oh look you've recreated a situation where armor reps are obscene compared to the overall fit.

So yeah, slots matter when it comes to basic design.


2. lol, HAV = Heavy Attack Vehicle, and I'm the one that gets accused of not knowing what I'm talking about. But that's ok, I'll overlook it. So basically what you're saying is "Well, ADS has a good bonus so thats why it loses slots". I'm not advocating the removal of slots from an HAV, not in the slightest. But the fact of the matter is that if you've got a Marauder, it's going to be getting bonuses to its defenses that the standard HAV will not have. This will innately make it a more heavily armored vehicle. Therefor it is indeed *better* in terms of defense compared to a standard HAV, regardless of how many slots it has. Therefor it is not REQUIRED that it has more slots. Will it? Maybe, but you act like "HOLY ******* **** IF IT DOESN'T HAVE MORE SLOTS THEN WHY BOTHER?!"


So listen up kiddos, I know you're red with nerd rage but do try to pay attention for a little longer.

I am not saying that specialty HAVs should not receive additional slots. Hell my initial design pass actually included both Marauders and Enforcers having additional slots. What I'm saying is that for sake of balance, it may be unfeasible for them to have an additional slot on top of Specialist Bonuses. Adding 1 slot increases Main-Rack fitting capacity by 33%, and a 20% increase overall... that's huge. The addition of another slot offers an insane benefit, especially if it's on the main rack of the vehicle. Remember the old Marauders? Went from 5/2 to 5/3. That's a 0% increase to main rack fitting ability, and a 12% increase overall. The addition of a slot now is a *significantly* larger buff on top of the existing basic HAV than it used to be.

So now you stack on bonuses, which will push the defenses even higher. So now you have a 33% increase to the fitting ability of the tank, plus bonuses on top of that. How do you think that's going to stack up in terms of balance? You might argue that the bonuses offer a very small benefit to prevent this, but that simply makes the training of that skill even more painful because each level of it feels like a very minor improvement.

The ADS gains a powerful bonus at the expense of slots, and that's why it works. Again, not advocating removal of HAV slots in the slightest, but *if I had to pick between the two* would rather have powerful bonuses with the same level of slots *which would still make the HAV significantly more defensible* rather than an extra slot and weak bonuses that don't feel like they're worth training.

.

1. partial module cooldowns for partial use.

2. limit all active modules to one per vehicle

3. buff active hardeners a bit to make up for not being able to stack more than one

4. allow passive modules to be stacked w/penalties

5. allow marauders to fit and use two active modules of the same type

http://dust514.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_Attack_Vehicles_%28HAV%29

"The Heavy Attack Vehicle (HAV) serves as an anchoring unit for many planetary engagements, fulfilling its role as a long-range and heavily armoured unit. Equipped with thick and resilient armour plating and high-capacity shielding systems, it is a tenacious defensive vehicle, able to withstand persistent onslaughts from entrenched enemies."

2d. HAV in DUST stands for Heavily Armored Vehicle

Lol, again HAV in DUST stands for Heavy Attack Vehicle, as per the wiki. Sure it can be heavily armored, but that's not what the acronym stands for.

The really hilarious part is that I'm not even necessarily disagree with you on increase slot layout, yet you're still flailing your arms about like I am. It's cute, adorable even.

1. Its both, mentioned in the description, it should be both but the majority of the time im not on the attack unless its against another vehicle im on the defence against AV since i dont want to die

2. I noticed you are only going on about this 1 point, i know i debated your points since i went past 4 but yet this is the only point you are yapping on about, looks like i might have to make another Sagaris thread

1. partial module cooldowns for partial use.

Should've been this way since the beginning.

2. limit all active modules to one per vehicle

You could fit more than one rep tool, more than one scanner, more than one nanohive, more than one uplink, multiple reps, plates, biotics modules, damage mods, shield extenders on a suit, why should we be limited to one hardener/booster/AB/NOS in the highs, and one hardener in the lows?

3. buff active hardeners a bit to make up for not being able to stack more than one

They should've stayed at their old values instead of being nerfed.

4. allow passive modules to be stacked w/penalties

Passives had stacking penalties.

5. allow marauders to fit and use two active modules of the same type

"Allow?" You should not be involved in vehicle talks at all.