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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
5133
   |
Posted - 2014.11.26 16:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
I would like to suggest taking a small step in the direction that Breakin Stuff (another dedicated HMG Sentinel) has suggested and nerf turn speed on the regular HMG a bit.
The idea is that this would force a HMG Sentinel to switch to a sidearm if a Scout or Assault gets inside of 7m or so, while maintaining their dominance at 8m to 25m. The Sentinel would still be effective in near to mid rang, but have a weakness in CQC which can be exploited by Scouts and Assaults. This would not leave SentinelGÇÖs defenceless in CQC, as the turn speed nerf would be applied to the weapon rather than the suit, and they could still use their sidearm to defend themselves.
Breakin StuffGÇÖs suggestions go far beyond this small change, but I think this would be a good first step to test the waters. I am not sure if I fully agree with his entire proposal, but I am fully prepared to go this far and see how it changes the dynamic.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
691
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 16:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
My only concern is that this may be prove too much of a nerf if combined with upcoming HP drawbacks. If strafe penalties are all that's added to plates, then this would likely be fine. But if other mobility penalties were introduced, there would be potential of over nerf. |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
5135
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Posted - 2014.11.26 16:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:My only concern is that this may be prove too much of a nerf if implemented alongside upcoming HP drawbacks. If strafe penalties are all that's added to plates, then this would likely be fine.
I agree. I don't think there should be any HP nerfs for the Sentinel aside from the strafe penalties on Plate/Shield Extenders.
I think that introducing tracking speed to the HMG would make it a lot easier to balance, and may shield us from some of the more outlandish suggestions which threaten to cripple the class.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Whisperen Sub
Napalm Bukkake
7
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Posted - 2014.11.26 19:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
No the minimatar heavy dos not need any more nerfs. |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
5137
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Posted - 2014.11.26 19:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Whisperen Sub wrote:No the minimatar heavy dos not need any more nerfs.
I have more Minmatar Sentinel Fits than all my Amarr and Caldari Sentinel fits put together. ItGÇÖs a fun suit, and I donGÇÖt think this will nerf it too badly. I often pull out a sidearm when a scout gets in close anyway, particularly if I am using a Burst, Assault or Militia HMG.
Also, a turn speed nerf on the HMG will not stop you from blasting someone from 2m away if they are standing still or moving slowly while facing the other way or shooting at someone else. It also wonGÇÖt have as big effect when taking on multiple people, as people donGÇÖt strafe as much in crowds (or they get in each otherGÇÖs way). It is mainly meant to give a disadvantage in 1v1 engagements if your opponent manages to get in close, and you can still switch to a sidearm to negate the turn speed penalty.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Whisperen Sub
Napalm Bukkake
7
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Posted - 2014.11.26 20:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
I use the minmatar sentinel and heavy often. I use it as support with assault suits to provide fast scary noisy dps in hit and run attacks or flanking maneuvers. I do not duel tank it and sit with logis (they cant keep up!) to hold points that is clearly not the purpose of the minmatar heavy suits. If you nerf turn speed it will be much harder to use the assault forge gun as a 'fastish' moving heavy AV support. This game is full of fast moving circle strafing wallhacking cloaked scouts throwing instagib remote explosives and fast moving long range assault suits.
If a heavy is in the open fighting it needs to be able to track targets if a heavy is in close combat indoors it still needs to be able to track targets. Any changes to turn speed are going to adversely effect the minmatar/caldari heavy's more then their logi bound brick tanked brethren. Rather then nerf all the heavy's we need to look at the types of game play that are not fun to encounter and how those types of play are implemented in map design this applies to all suits weapons vehicles equipment. |
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15080
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 20:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:I would like to suggest taking a small step in the direction that Breakin Stuff (another dedicated HMG Sentinel) has suggested and nerf turn speed on the regular HMG a bit. The idea is that this would force a HMG Sentinel to switch to a sidearm if a Scout or Assault gets inside of 7m or so, while maintaining their dominance at 8m to 25m. The Sentinel would still be effective in near to mid rang, but have a weakness in CQC which can be exploited by Scouts and Assaults. This would not leave SentinelGÇÖs defenceless in CQC, as the turn speed nerf would be applied to the weapon rather than the suit, and they could still use their sidearm to defend themselves. Breakin StuffGÇÖs suggestions go far beyond this small change, but I think this would be a good first step to test the waters. I am not sure if I fully agree with his entire proposal, but I am fully prepared to go this far and see how it changes the dynamic. Edit: The turn speed would have to be a hard cap that would be in place regardless of sensitivity settings or control type. Edit: Breakin StuffGÇÖs full proposal. ( Again I am not sure that I would go that far.)
I am a fan of his suggestion.
Sentinels gain range but have issues in close quarters and can function as suppressive fire support platforms. God knows in every game other than Dust I am typically the gun who runs LMG and whatever lays down the biggest bullet hell at range...... Dust wise the HMG is lame as hell.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
434
|
Posted - 2014.11.26 23:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Disagreed with and disliked, Sorry mate -- but I've seen you running non-sentinel in pubs... |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
159
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 01:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Whisperen Sub wrote:*snipped whining about AFG being nerfed by OP's proposal*
Clearly you are incapable of reading, and completely lack the skill known as "reading comprehension". I was under the impression that this fundamental ability was still taught in the most basic of schools that small children attend.
Obviously I was misinformed, but that is neither here nor there.
To clarify the OP:
HMG turn speed is slightly reduced. All other heavy weapons (IE, the Forge gun in all of its variations), as well as the Assault and Burst variants of the HMG, would remain unchanged.
As for the OP:
I'm ambivalent. That's all I can really say without putting up one or more walls-o'-text.
Imp Smash wrote:Disagreed with and disliked, Sorry mate -- but I've seen you running non-sentinel in pubs...
Just because someone occasionally pulls out a different suit from their main role in a pub match- or even FW/PC matches, for that matter- does not mean that they are not incredibly informed and well-acquainted with the core mechanics of their preferred class.
Myself for example- in pubs these days I have mostly been running a Quafe AmSalt or more recently the Amarr Commando. Primarily this is because my preferred Amarr Logi is only truly useful at ADV level... which also tends to mean that one of my Logi rigs tends to sit at around 40-50 thousand ISK, as compared to "never more than 15k" STD-level Commando rigs.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Powerh8er
The Rainbow Effect
555
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Posted - 2014.11.27 03:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Keep the HMG as cqc weapon, but nerf HMG turn speed. "Great" stuff. |
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
434
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Posted - 2014.11.27 04:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:Imp Smash wrote:Disagreed with and disliked, Sorry mate -- but I've seen you running non-sentinel in pubs... Just because someone occasionally pulls out a different suit from their main role in a pub match- or even FW/PC matches, for that matter- does not mean that they are not incredibly informed and well-acquainted with the core mechanics of their preferred class. Myself for example- in pubs these days I have mostly been running a Quafe AmSalt or more recently the Amarr Commando. Primarily this is because my preferred Amarr Logi is only truly useful at ADV level... which also tends to mean that one of my Logi rigs tends to sit at around 40-50 thousand ISK, as compared to "never more than 15k" STD-level Commando rigs.
That's not why I disagree with Fox. I like fox a fair bit and am impressed by his rational discussion. |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 05:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Powerh8er wrote:Keep the HMG as cqc weapon, but nerf HMG turn speed. "Great" stuff.
If you'd read the relevant links, you would realize that this is part of experimenting with changing the HMG's role from "CQC beast mode" to "long range suppression fire".
Please pay more attention.
Imp Smash wrote:That's not why I disagree with Fox. I like fox a fair bit and am impressed by his rational discussion.
My point was merely that, since it appeared that that was why you were disagreeing with him- at least on this particular proposal- it is, in fact, fallacious to assume that since someone "runs suits that aren't their preferred role" then they have no ability to provide input to their preferred role.
Now, given that you have disputed that as being the reason- and I have no reason to discount your claim of such- could you perhaps enlighten me (and the other forumgoers who might stumble upon this thread) as to why you disagree with the OP?
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
435
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Posted - 2014.11.27 07:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
I have talked about this with him in other threads. So don't want to type out whole walls of text here.
For example heavies used to have a hard cap to turn speed -- it did not go well for them. That's just one example though.
Another is that I don't agree with the recent idea that 'heavies weren't meant to be CQC.' Says who really...that's just an arbitrary opinion being asserted as though it were fact. I could say that 'people weren't meant to play video games' with reasonable arguments but that doesn't make it true.
The idea that heavies are OP is an assertion as well with the only evidence being that they are spammed in PC. Sure it is evidence, but lacks context. Of those OP heavies getting a lot of kills, how many had 1 or 2 proto rep guns on them 99% of the time....the number is probably higher than being accounted for. In that case it may be rep guns that are op and not heavies.
Of course it may BE heavies. I see many assertions and opinions (much like this one) that only discuss part of the issue and do not address (or give a passing allusion to but do not fairly discuss) all the possible factors.
AND i see ideas that result in multiple simultanous changes. That is what I hate the most. CCP makes a change and everyone complains that 'they used a sledgehammer instead of a scalpel' to fix the problem -- then follow it up with large numbers of simultaneous change requests amounting to another sledgehammer fix. Very short sighted.
I could go into more detail but there are various threads on individual points that do so better. Suffice to say I do not agree.
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Powerh8er
The Rainbow Effect
556
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Posted - 2014.11.27 09:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:Powerh8er wrote:Keep the HMG as cqc weapon, but nerf HMG turn speed. "Great" stuff. If you'd read the relevant links, you would realize that this is part of experimenting with changing the HMG's role from "CQC beast mode" to "long range suppression fire". Please pay more attention.
Dont insult me, ive read breakins awesome suggestion that i support before i read this half ass suggestion witch i dont support.
Please dont be naive.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5379
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 10:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
Gotta disagree here Fox.
If you nerf the HMG like that you have to open the operation window. The longer the range the bigger the penalty you can add without gimping the fit.
Playing a CQC fit that's gimped for the close 1/3rd of optimal sucks more than you can comprehend. Been there, done that. It is the opposite of fun.
The only way it works is by making sents ranges and not touching the burst.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5148
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 13:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Whisperen Sub wrote:I use the minmatar sentinel and heavy often. I use it as support with assault suits to provide fast scary noisy dps in hit and run attacks or flanking maneuvers. I do not duel tank it and sit with logis (they cant keep up!) to hold points that is clearly not the purpose of the minmatar heavy suits. If you nerf turn speed it will be much harder to use the assault forge gun as a 'fastish' moving heavy AV support. This game is full of fast moving circle strafing wallhacking cloaked scouts throwing instagib remote explosives and fast moving long range assault suits.
If a heavy is in the open fighting it needs to be able to track targets if a heavy is in close combat indoors it still needs to be able to track targets. Any changes to turn speed are going to adversely effect the minmatar/caldari heavy's more then their logi bound brick tanked brethren. Rather then nerf all the heavy's we need to look at the types of game play that are not fun to encounter and how those types of play are implemented in map design this applies to all suits weapons vehicles equipment.
I am suggesting a turn speed cap for the base model HMG. It would not apply to the suit and would not apply to the Forge Gun.
I am also suggesting that the turn speed cap be high enough that it would only become an issue at very close range. ~5m for an Assault and about 7m for a Scout, roughly.
Then if that worked out we could argue for some decrease to dispersion in ADS mode.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5148
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 13:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:Disagreed with and disliked, Sorry mate -- but I've seen you running non-sentinel in pubs...
I was trying to learn to play the Minmatar Assault suit for a few weeks. I sucked at first but then as I started getting the feel for the Assault setup I started loosing my touch with the HMG Sentinel, so I went back to playing Sentinel.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5148
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 13:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Powerh8er wrote:Keep the HMG as cqc weapon, but nerf HMG turn speed. "Great" stuff.
Well... the next step is to ask for a reduction in Dispersion when aiming down sights.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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DarthPlagueis TheWise
432
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 13:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
-_-
The community is bound and ******* determined to ruin this game aren't you...
F*k this cash grab fix the shit that matters: unkillable uplinks, invisible remotes on null cannon hack panels, etc.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5148
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 13:43:00 -
[20] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:I have talked about this with him in other threads. So don't want to type out whole walls of text here.
For example heavies used to have a hard cap to turn speed -- it did not go well for them. That's just one example though.
Another is that I don't agree with the recent idea that 'heavies weren't meant to be CQC.' Says who really...that's just an arbitrary opinion being asserted as though it were fact. I could say that 'people weren't meant to play video games' with reasonable arguments but that doesn't make it true.
The idea that heavies are OP is an assertion as well with the only evidence being that they are spammed in PC. Sure it is evidence, but lacks context. Of those OP heavies getting a lot of kills, how many had 1 or 2 proto rep guns on them 99% of the time....the number is probably higher than being accounted for. In that case it may be rep guns that are op and not heavies.
Of course it may BE heavies. I see many assertions and opinions (much like this one) that only discuss part of the issue and do not address (or give a passing allusion to but do not fairly discuss) all the possible factors.
AND i see ideas that result in multiple simultanous changes. That is what I hate the most. CCP makes a change and everyone complains that 'they used a sledgehammer instead of a scalpel' to fix the problem -- then follow it up with large numbers of simultaneous change requests amounting to another sledgehammer fix. Very short sighted.
I could go into more detail but there are various threads on individual points that do so better. Suffice to say I do not agree.
You make some good points. Thanks for adding some depth to the discussion.
I am not fully on-board with the idea that the HMG should not be a close range weapon either, but I do think it should have a point of weakness, and giving the size of the thing a turn speed reduction would seem to make sense. It would still take a lot of skill on the part of your attacker to take advantage of that weakness, and since the penalty is on the weapon, you can switch to a sidearm to bypass the penalty. A sidearm should take out a Scout just about as fast as an HMG if they are not brick tanked (and soon brick tanking will reduce Strafe speed which would also reduce the impact of the turn speed penalty when fighting high health fits).
Basically I feel the HMG should be a close rang to mid rang weapon with the ability to finish off nearly dead targets out to 60m when crouched. I would like to see a reduction in dispersion in ADS and with a more significant reduction to dispersion when crouched. But to justify that we need a demonstrable weakness.
Therefore I suggest that a HMG should be good at close range (10m) but not so good at in-your-face range (5m), unless you can restrict your opponentGÇÖs movement using a choke point or some other tactic.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Crash Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
39
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Posted - 2014.11.27 14:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
DarthPlagueis TheWise wrote:-_-
The community is bound and ******* determined to ruin this game aren't you...
You're not a HMG sentinel. You're a douchebag who skilled into the HMG sentinel and plays it occasionally but mostly uses other dropsuits.
Stop trying to ruin players experiences whose favorite playstyle is the heavy.
This is my dedicated HMG Sentinel. I nearly stopped playing Fox Gaden between 1.3 and 1.8c except for testing stuff, until I finally Skilled Fox Gaden to 5 on Minmatar, Caldair, and Amarr sentinels between Hotfix's Charlie and Delta. Now that Fox Gaden has the Skills to be a Sentinel I mostly play on Fox again. (Crash still has slightly more Skill points than Fox, but Fox is catching up. Both Fox Gaden and Crash Gaden are Majors according to the Loyalty point system.)
That being said, I do try to play other roles enough to acquire an understanding of them and get some feel for game balance from both sides. |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5148
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 14:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Gotta disagree here Fox.
If you nerf the HMG like that you have to open the operation window. The longer the range the bigger the penalty you can add without gimping the fit.
Playing a CQC fit that's gimped for the close 1/3rd of optimal sucks more than you can comprehend. Been there, done that. It is the opposite of fun.
The only way it works is by making sents ranges and not touching the burst.
I should have included the suggested reduction to dispersion in ADS and when crouched to start with. Your point is indeed valid that in exchange for losing effectiveness at very close range, we need to gain more effectiveness at long range.
I still don't fully agree that we should lose all our close range dominance though. I am fine with having a weakness if they managed to get all up in our grill, but I still think the HMG should be the most dominant weapon at 10 - 20m.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Lazer Fo Cused
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
140
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 14:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
1. Scouts already have it easy dancing around sentinals as it is except for some CQC spaces but they can move damn fast to make up for it and be out of sight or range
2. Scouts already have cloaks and RE grenades and can 2 shot you with a shotgun anyways
3. Assaults generally have better range than the HMG and can pick you off easily enough
4. If i turn any slower advantage to the scout again, its not enough that the scout can cloak, throw RE like grenades and also 2 shot with a shotgun while jumping around at light speed while my shots do not land with crappy hit detection
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5386
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 15:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Gotta disagree here Fox.
If you nerf the HMG like that you have to open the operation window. The longer the range the bigger the penalty you can add without gimping the fit.
Playing a CQC fit that's gimped for the close 1/3rd of optimal sucks more than you can comprehend. Been there, done that. It is the opposite of fun.
The only way it works is by making sents ranges and not touching the burst. I should have included the suggested reduction to dispersion in ADS and when crouched to start with. Your point is indeed valid that in exchange for losing effectiveness at very close range, we need to gain more effectiveness at long range. I still don't fully agree that we should lose all our close range dominance though. I am fine with having a weakness if they managed to get all up in our grill, but I still think the HMG shouldn't be the most dominant weapon at 10 - 20m.
Close range dominance is what the burst HMG is for. It actually has power and drawbacks.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5149
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 15:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Close range dominance is what the burst HMG is for. It actually has power and drawbacks.
Then we are in agreement.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
165
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Posted - 2014.11.27 18:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:I have talked about this with him in other threads. So don't want to type out whole walls of text here.
For example heavies used to have a hard cap to turn speed -- it did not go well for them. That's just one example though.
Another is that I don't agree with the recent idea that 'heavies weren't meant to be CQC.' Says who really...that's just an arbitrary opinion being asserted as though it were fact. I could say that 'people weren't meant to play video games' with reasonable arguments but that doesn't make it true.
The idea that heavies are OP is an assertion as well with the only evidence being that they are spammed in PC. Sure it is evidence, but lacks context. Of those OP heavies getting a lot of kills, how many had 1 or 2 proto rep guns on them 99% of the time....the number is probably higher than being accounted for. In that case it may be rep guns that are op and not heavies.
Of course it may BE heavies. I see many assertions and opinions (much like this one) that only discuss part of the issue and do not address (or give a passing allusion to but do not fairly discuss) all the possible factors.
AND i see ideas that result in multiple simultanous changes. That is what I hate the most. CCP makes a change and everyone complains that 'they used a sledgehammer instead of a scalpel' to fix the problem -- then follow it up with large numbers of simultaneous change requests amounting to another sledgehammer fix. Very short sighted.
I could go into more detail but there are various threads on individual points that do so better. Suffice to say I do not agree.
I do agree (in part because I played heavy in late Chrome... that was a painful experience) that a pure CQC platform shouldn't have a turnspeed reduction.
The problem, as I see it, is that being a CQC dominance platform makes the lack of mobility that a heavy suit has a meaningless drawback. "Oh, it will take me a whole minute to get from A point to B point? I'll stay on A point instead, since it's lots of CQC and I roll face in CQC" is pretty much where it stands.
Yes yes, there's the whole "use an LAV" argument. LAVs cost ISK, and intelligent people will want their LAV to not be a rolling coffin, which means it costs more ISK as well as SP.
Heavies are spammed in PC, IMO, because there is almost nothing to counter them in the CQC environments that they currently dominate in. It's also why only AM/GA sentinels are seen- the CA/MN suits can't be bricked as high (that whole HP>everything mentality again) and- particularly the CA- don't benefit nearly as much from one or more rep tools being tethered to them.
I'd also like to point out that a weapon that is described as an "HMG" is somewhat bewildering a CQC armament, rather than an at least mid-range fire support weapon. Additionally, HMG heavy CQC dominance prevents people from, say, using the Gallente Assault as a CQC platform- it hasn't got anywhere near the durability or the DPS to dominate like a heavy, and it folds completely when faced by a heavy.
With that said, I would also like to say two more things to you:
1. My support for the OP's proposal is purely a case of "if it leads to Breakin's proposal, then I'm all for it". If it doesn't... yeah, not so keen on it then.
2. Thank you for clarifying your opinion; it has been helpful in determining where you stand on the OP's idea.
Powerh8er wrote:Dont insult me, ive read breakins awesome suggestion that i support before i read this half ass suggestion witch i dont support.
Please dont be naive.
Please point out where I insulted you. Also, please exercise a proper usage of the English language. Your barbaric butchery of it is an eyesore.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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DarthPlagueis TheWise
434
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Posted - 2014.11.27 18:20:00 -
[27] - Quote
I really need to emphasize that Breakin's idea of keeping the Burst with normal turn speed is CRUCIAL.
If I can't have something for CQC in a city map on my Sentinel, I'll biomass my ******* clone. Because I designed my entire skill tree around using the ScP for taking out shields and having better range than the HMG.
I can kill a Caldari scout in CQC with a ScP, but if you nerf ALL the HMGs turn speeds, I probably won't even be able to pop a Cal Assault nevermind the others.
Making the Burst the only one good at turning speed would mean
- It will take more skill than it does now to hold an objective
- Gives Burst heavies a weakness to exploit
- Heavies still have an option for standing by a doorway/wall and pushing back waves of enemies
- If he overheats, the enemy will notice and use it as an opportunity to make the kill
- You can still beat a burst heavy at CQC if you have better gun game
F*k this cash grab fix the shit that matters: unkillable uplinks, invisible remotes on null cannon hack panels, etc.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5156
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Posted - 2014.11.27 18:24:00 -
[28] - Quote
DarthPlagueis TheWise wrote:I really need to emphasize that Breakin's idea of keeping the Burst with normal turn speed is CRUCIAL. If I can't have something for CQC in a city map on my Sentinel, I'll biomass my ******* clone. Because I designed my entire skill tree around using the ScP for taking out shields and having better range than the HMG. I can kill a Caldari scout in CQC with a ScP, but if you nerf ALL the HMGs turn speeds, I probably won't even be able to pop a Cal Assault nevermind the others. Making the Burst the only one good at turning speed would mean
- It will take more skill than it does now to hold an objective
- Gives Burst heavies a weakness to exploit
- Heavies still have an option for standing by a doorway/wall and pushing back waves of enemies
- If he overheats, the enemy will notice and use it as an opportunity to make the kill
- You can still beat a burst heavy at CQC if you have better gun game
It is obvious that the Burst HMG overheats so fast because it was constructed with ultra light materials. 
Which is to say, only the base model HMG should have the Turn Speed cap.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5225
|
Posted - 2014.12.01 20:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
Modified Suggestion:
I wonder if a turn speed cap can be setup so it is only active when you are holding the trigger down? This would allow Sentinels to maintain some quality of life in being able to look both ways before crossing the street more readily, and would allow a Sentinel to make quick adjustment in CQC by letting their finger off the trigger for a quick adjustment before continuing to fire. This would make CQC combat more possible, but require more player skill than holding the trigger and spinning in a circle when a Nova Knifer gets too close as we can do now.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
5579
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Posted - 2014.12.01 21:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Modified Suggestion:
I wonder if a turn speed cap can be setup so it is only active when you are holding the trigger down? This would allow Sentinels to maintain some quality of life in being able to look both ways before crossing the street more readily, and would allow a Sentinel to make quick adjustment in CQC by letting their finger off the trigger for a quick adjustment before continuing to fire. This would make CQC combat more possible, but require more player skill than holding the trigger and spinning in a circle when a Nova Knifer gets too close as we can do now.
If turn speed happpens range has to increase. Period.
This cannot happen one without the other. Your interest in reducing heavy spam is admirable.
This is the wrong suggestion to get there.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Jack Boost
Zarena Family
532
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Posted - 2014.12.02 10:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
At this point of game I as heavy with forge often win vs HMG heavy only with sidearm.
Same movement pnalties apply, same frames ... and sidearm wins. Little pice of iron in CQC better then HMG. Can you imagine how it is when you use different frame size + EWAR + better weapon?
Tell me good reason to 'nerf' HMG heavy more?
You don't have mobility to take optimal place, you are blind and everyone know where you are and knows if they go under your gun or from behind.
You just pushing more heavies from 'CQC heavy weapon HMG' to use light and sidearm weapons... because it is better option.
Now tell me why 'all forum' whine about this?
I don't want to be HMG heavy only to stand (crouch) still with logi behind me and shoot only stright...
No point with this - you can just make poor bots here.
If somone dare come close (via cloak/EWAR) I must have enough power to repel attack. If I was catch - ok my fault to not paying attention (and for this is that big difference in EWAR here). But when I see my enemy and after your proposal I can't do anyting to track him, as heavy I just quit.
Turn speed more nerf - clear no.
Not much time left...
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5228
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Posted - 2014.12.02 12:59:00 -
[32] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Modified Suggestion:
I wonder if a turn speed cap can be setup so it is only active when you are holding the trigger down? This would allow Sentinels to maintain some quality of life in being able to look both ways before crossing the street more readily, and would allow a Sentinel to make quick adjustment in CQC by letting their finger off the trigger for a quick adjustment before continuing to fire. This would make CQC combat more possible, but require more player skill than holding the trigger and spinning in a circle when a Nova Knifer gets too close as we can do now. If turn speed happpens range has to increase. Period.
I thought we had already established that I agreed with you on this?
I still agree that any turn reduction should be accompanied with a desperation reduction to extend the HMG's range of effectiveness.
I was simply proposing an adjustment to the nerf side of the equation.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5228
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Posted - 2014.12.02 13:04:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jack Boost wrote:At this point of game I as heavy with forge often win vs HMG heavy only with sidearm.
Same movement pnalties apply, same frames ... and sidearm wins. Little pice of iron in CQC better then HMG. Can you imagine how it is when you use different frame size + EWAR + better weapon?
Actually it is not the same movement penalties which apply. The HMG already has a slightly slower turn speed than your sidearm. It is just that the difference is small and not very noticeable.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
5228
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Posted - 2014.12.02 13:35:00 -
[34] - Quote
The following is a copy of the original post before I rewrote it.
Fox Gaden wrote:I would like to suggest taking a small step in the direction that Breakin Stuff (another dedicated HMG Sentinel) has suggested and nerf turn speed on the regular HMG a bit. The idea is that this would force a HMG Sentinel to switch to a sidearm if a Scout or Assault gets inside of 7m or so, while maintaining their dominance at 8m to 25m. The Sentinel would still be effective in near to mid rang, but have a weakness in CQC which can be exploited by Scouts and Assaults. This would not leave SentinelGÇÖs defenceless in CQC, as the turn speed nerf would be applied to the weapon rather than the suit, and they could still use their sidearm to defend themselves. Breakin StuffGÇÖs suggestions go far beyond this small change, but I think this would be a good first step to test the waters. I am not sure if I fully agree with his entire proposal, but I am fully prepared to go this far and see how it changes the dynamic. * Edit 1 * The turn speed would have to be a hard cap that would be in place regardless of sensitivity settings or control type. * Edit 2 * Breakin StuffGÇÖs full proposal. ( Again I am not sure that I would go that far.)* Edit 3 * The turn speed nerf is just one aspect. I would also like to make some changes to desperation. Basically I feel the HMG should be a close rang to mid rang weapon with the ability to finish off nearly dead targets out to 60m when crouched. I would like to see a reduction in dispersion in ADS and with a more significant reduction to dispersion when crouched. But to justify that we need a demonstrable weakness. Therefore I suggest that a HMG should be good at close range (10m) but not so good at in-your-face range (5m), unless you can restrict your opponentGÇÖs movement using a choke point or some other tactic. * Edit 4 * Modified Suggestion: I wonder if a turn speed cap can be setup so it is only active when you are holding the trigger down? This would allow Sentinels to maintain some quality of life in being able to look both ways before crossing the street more readily, and would allow a Sentinel to make quick adjustment in CQC by letting their finger off the trigger for a quick adjustment before continuing to fire. This would make CQC combat more possible, but require more player skill than holding the trigger and spinning in a circle when a Nova Knifer gets too close as we can do now.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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