DUST Search - Breach AR

Imp Smash wrote:

Actually no to a lot of you. Braedic, Fox, Breakin, lots of intellegent points to be sure. But y'all are completely forgetting the experience we have already had with the HMG.

For starters take Dispersion. The HMG is horrible with no dispersion. Why do we know this? Because for years it HAD no dispersion. It fired like a laser rifle (even though the reticule and the bullet animations showed a cone) and it was complete crap. It's from this that the rooftop camping forge gunner camper was born -- simply because there was pretty much nothing else to do. Then RR heavies when the RR first came out. It wasn't until dispersion was added to the HMG (this was all post RR/CR release) that we saw HMGs again. Until then it was Light Weapon heavy and assault suits all day.

Ironically the above dispersion fix lowered the skill ceiling of the gun. A heavy who was SUPER skilled in aiming, AND not lagging, AND not having damage frames dropped on fast suits due to hit detection could literally instagib anything.

It was so hard though few did it. And lag and hit detection made this unreliable regardless of skill.

Dispersion is what makes the HMG good in close range because it creates a "field" of damage so it's significantly easier to hit. It's skill ceiling is lowered but its accesibility was raised. I make no argument on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Because until hit detection and netcode are improved we can't make any 'good' changes. It's all bandaid work.

All that being said, it lowers the practical DPS. HMGs are not 800 dps blackstar, simply because due to dispersion (although I think we are using dispersion incorrectly when talking about the HMG but lets go with that for simplicity's sake) those bullets won't and in fact CAN'T all hit. The DPS of the HMG fluctuates a fair bit as (by the sheer chance built into the bullet spread mechanics) some bullets go where you are aiming and some don't.

The reason I said an assault can go toe to toe with a heavy is because they can. Dispersion prevents the HMG from reliably headshotting (although it happens, again due to chance, sometimes and of course skill affects this) while any of the rifles can (again with with skill) place EVERY bullet on the heavy's head.

So looking at the Assault HMG, it isn't that good up close, or even that good far away (it's not terribad of course) due to DPS and dispersion.

If you tighten dispersion so that it fires like it used to fire you have a short range laser rifle (in effect). Super close to the heavy will make him either instagib you or do no damage. At range it may become too powerful because the heavy will be able to put ALL the bullets on YOUR head at range. Only at that time could you say it's an 800DPS (before headshot modifier) weapon. So you would need to lower DPS -- but then when you have lag or dropped frames of damage it would again become pointless.

That's basically what ya'll are proposing. Shall the Assault HMG be a short ranged laser rifle?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
ImIvan 53	Posted - 2014.11.26 01:59:00 - [1] - Quote Breach AR is better than the Assault HMG in every way and it takes less fitting space -.- (besides damage profile) Buff the Assault HMG plz. Why must you use prototypes?
Commander Noctus Gallente Loyalist 138	Posted - 2014.11.26 02:23:00 - [2] - Quote Look, just cuz you don't like the breach, doesn't mean you should ner- Oh...you're asking to buff the Assault HMG. That's new. Yeah, sure, definitely needs it. Gallente User since Jan. 28th, 2013. Touched on every Gallente role since.
Finn Colman Immortal Guides 67	Posted - 2014.11.26 02:38:00 - [3] - Quote I agree, the A-HMG is a joke when not used in a very specific range, especially compared to the BrAR. That being said it is a joke that I commonly use, to very little effect. The little Min with the little voice.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 681	Posted - 2014.11.26 02:58:00 - [4] - Quote If the benchmark is the Breach AR, then every weapon needs a buff.
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 480	Posted - 2014.11.26 05:45:00 - [5] - Quote Oh my god with the Breach bashing?! Prof 5 and sharpshooter 5! That's what's rocking your socks off! Not lvl 3 AR?! In comparison to every other rifle it does it's job! That's like saying guys with prof 5 sharpshooter 5 on the CR is OP?! As far as the assault hmg goes it's not the door kicking hmg!!! It's for longer than average hmg engagement! Most of you have adopted the "bull in the China shop" mentality and approach to running heavy?! In the hands of caldari and minmatar heavies with speed, regen, and shields the MO-4 (MOFO), and the freedom hmg's are solid weapons! Are they PC weapons? No, but neither are a lot of weapons. That's because of the limited amount of maps in PC. When running the assault versions you have to play differently than what most heavies are used to. Careful what you wish for, or have we all forgotten so quickly the burst hmg from hell?? "Anybody order chaos?"
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 431	Posted - 2014.11.26 06:05:00 - [6] - Quote To be fair, not JUST the breach, but also the scrambler rifle and the CR (both varients) can go toe to toe with an HMG and have a good chance of winning.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5348	Posted - 2014.11.26 10:42:00 - [7] - Quote Actually as far as buffs go, since it doesn't have the DPS output of other HMGs just tightening the dispersion will likely to amazing things for the gun. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5348	Posted - 2014.11.26 10:45:00 - [8] - Quote Bradric Banewolf wrote: Oh my god with the Breach bashing?! Prof 5 and sharpshooter 5! That's what's rocking your socks off! Not lvl 3 AR?! In comparison to every other rifle it does it's job! That's like saying guys with prof 5 sharpshooter 5 on the CR is OP?! As far as the assault hmg goes it's not the door kicking hmg!!! It's for longer than average hmg engagement! Most of you have adopted the "bull in the China shop" mentality and approach to running heavy?! In the hands of caldari and minmatar heavies with speed, regen, and shields the MO-4 (MOFO), and the freedom hmg's are solid weapons! Are they PC weapons? No, but neither are a lot of weapons. That's because of the limited amount of maps in PC. When running the assault versions you have to play differently than what most heavies are used to. Careful what you wish for, or have we all forgotten so quickly the burst hmg from hell?? The assault HMG is utterly ineffective at its intended ranges because dispersion is entirely too loose. You can't get enough hits to make the gun work. People aren't asking for DPS buffs they want the ASSMG to be able to actually hit. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 481	Posted - 2014.11.26 14:24:00 - [9] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: To be fair, not JUST the breach, but also the scrambler rifle and the CR (both varients) can go toe to toe with an HMG and have a good chance of winning. This! "Anybody order chaos?"
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 481	Posted - 2014.11.26 14:27:00 - [10] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Bradric Banewolf wrote: Oh my god with the Breach bashing?! Prof 5 and sharpshooter 5! That's what's rocking your socks off! Not lvl 3 AR?! In comparison to every other rifle it does it's job! That's like saying guys with prof 5 sharpshooter 5 on the CR is OP?! As far as the assault hmg goes it's not the door kicking hmg!!! It's for longer than average hmg engagement! Most of you have adopted the "bull in the China shop" mentality and approach to running heavy?! In the hands of caldari and minmatar heavies with speed, regen, and shields the MO-4 (MOFO), and the freedom hmg's are solid weapons! Are they PC weapons? No, but neither are a lot of weapons. That's because of the limited amount of maps in PC. When running the assault versions you have to play differently than what most heavies are used to. Careful what you wish for, or have we all forgotten so quickly the burst hmg from hell?? The assault HMG is utterly ineffective at its intended ranges because dispersion is entirely too loose. You can't get enough hits to make the gun work. People aren't asking for DPS buffs they want the ASSMG to be able to actually hit. That's fine, but why do they keep asking for a breach AR nerf? The ScR, CR, and RR hit just as hard! What would you like the CQC race to fight in CQC with? Pop guns? Heavies are CQC currently so we need a weapon that can down them, and the breach AR does that job! Nerfing it will limit the gallente assaults and commandos to shotguns and the PLC in CQC. "Anybody order chaos?"

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5355	Posted - 2014.11.26 14:39:00 - [11] - Quote I believe that you have missed the point banewolf. The thread is to beg a buff for the Assault HMG not demand a nerf of the BAR. It was used as a comparison model because it's pretty much superior to the AHMG in pretty much every way. Bluntly the statement would be true no matter what weapon you compared it to. The AHMG simply does not perform well in its intended operating area at all. Plus it overheats faster than a prenerf STD HMG. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 482	Posted - 2014.11.26 17:58:00 - [12] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I believe that you have missed the point banewolf. The thread is to beg a buff for the Assault HMG not demand a nerf of the BAR. It was used as a comparison model because it's pretty much superior to the AHMG in pretty much every way. Bluntly the statement would be true no matter what weapon you compared it to. The AHMG simply does not perform well in its intended operating area at all. Plus it overheats faster than a prenerf STD HMG. Agreed. The AHMG needs either less heat buildup, or less dispersion. That's the fix. Slightly more damage too. Just have to be careful with CCP and their buffs and nerfs?! The fix needed will be obvious, and they will do the exact thing that makes it OP?! Like the burst hmg. The part that grinds my gears is when guys think that the only way to buff a weapons performance is greater damage?! There are a number of ways to nerf and buff rifles and other weapons. Slower rates of fire add to accuracy and less dispersion for rifles like the breach AR. Even when the AR class was nerfed to the dirt the breach was still the only dependable one of it's class due to it's rate of fire and accuracy. More shots hit the target with the breach than the regular AR. The AHMG can do well as is, but to help with it your suggestion about the dispersion is a good one. It should be much more accurate than the general purpose HMG. Not to the point of needing a scope, but with it's lowered damage it should drill the target well at that optimal range. Less heat build up would help that as well so heavies have the 3 options to choose from. Burst has added damage with quicker heat build up. HMG is balanced on both. The AHMG has less damage, more range, and less heat build up. All weapon classes and variants are good to an extent, but I dont want the community wasting anymore time and isk fighting OP weapons?! On the flip side I don't want mercs weapons being over nerfed to the point of being useless! I know what that's like more than most being gallente. It's like playing on hard mode while everyone else is having a field day. The outcome to OP weapons is usually over nerfs?! The RR comes to mind immediately. The charge up is a bit too long now. I just don't wanna keep buying respects because guys come to the forums, and kill your main battle rifle because they can't counter it?! When I advocated changes to the rail I gave reasonable information from use and damage taken. What happened to it afterwards was totally a super nerfed to quiet the crying on the forums?! The kick was initially over done, and then toned down. However, the charge is too long?! It went from overly effective everywhere, to barely effective in optimal! A bit passionate I know, but when this happens it sets back progress for mercs and corps! Some of your strongest guys having to completely change roles, and re-train for a completely different position?! Then I've gotta reassign him in the lineup?! OP weapons aren't fun! It's frustrating! I hope CCP reads this, and considers it when they tweak a weapon to beast mode?! "Anybody order chaos?"
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3370	Posted - 2014.11.26 18:13:00 - [13] - Quote So your 40 meter 800 dps **** stick against my 40 meter 450 dps gun? Really... Really? Yeah the assault hmg needs a buff but there is no reason to ride the breach is OP boat to get your message across. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5135	Posted - 2014.11.26 18:23:00 - [14] - Quote ImIvan wrote: Breach AR is better than the Assault HMG in every way and it takes less fitting space -.- (besides damage profile) Buff the Assault HMG plz. The Assault HMG needs a dispersion reduction to increase it's actual range (to closer to the range listed in the stats) but otherwise it is fine. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5136	Posted - 2014.11.26 18:38:00 - [15] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Bradric Banewolf wrote: As far as the assault hmg goes it's not the door kicking hmg!!! It's for longer than average hmg engagement! Most of you have adopted the "bull in the China shop" mentality and approach to running heavy?! In the hands of caldari and minmatar heavies with speed, regen, and shields the MO-4 (MOFO), and the freedom hmg's are solid weapons! Are they PC weapons? No, but neither are a lot of weapons. That's because of the limited amount of maps in PC. When running the assault versions you have to play differently than what most heavies are used to. Careful what you wish for, or have we all forgotten so quickly the burst hmg from hell?? The assault HMG is utterly ineffective at its intended ranges because dispersion is entirely too loose. You can't get enough hits to make the gun work. People aren't asking for DPS buffs they want the ASSMG to be able to actually hit. I agree with both of you. The Assault HMG is very effective at a very specific range. ~20 to 30m? But due to desperation its effectiveness falls of quickly after that, and due to its lower DPS it is not all that good close up. Currently it is good for some maps such as Line Harvest which have the right combination of open area and cover to allow you to engage at the correct range. If the desperation was reduced it would allow damage to be applied at greater rang which would make the Assault HMG effective in more situations and on more maps. I also think that reducing dispersion is a lot safer than messing with damage or rang. I think we can agree that we wont the Assault HMG to be more useful, not OP. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5136	Posted - 2014.11.26 18:43:00 - [16] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Plus it overheats faster than a prenerf STD HMG. Was there a change to heat buildup on the Assault HMG, or is it still the same as it was before? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 434	Posted - 2014.11.26 23:50:00 - [17] - Quote Actually no to a lot of you. Braedic, Fox, Breakin, lots of intellegent points to be sure. But y'all are completely forgetting the experience we have already had with the HMG. For starters take Dispersion. The HMG is horrible with no dispersion. Why do we know this? Because for years it HAD no dispersion. It fired like a laser rifle (even though the reticule and the bullet animations showed a cone) and it was complete crap. It's from this that the rooftop camping forge gunner camper was born -- simply because there was pretty much nothing else to do. Then RR heavies when the RR first came out. It wasn't until dispersion was added to the HMG (this was all post RR/CR release) that we saw HMGs again. Until then it was Light Weapon heavy and assault suits all day. Ironically the above dispersion fix lowered the skill ceiling of the gun. A heavy who was SUPER skilled in aiming, AND not lagging, AND not having damage frames dropped on fast suits due to hit detection could literally instagib anything. It was so hard though few did it. And lag and hit detection made this unreliable regardless of skill. Dispersion is what makes the HMG good in close range because it creates a "field" of damage so it's significantly easier to hit. It's skill ceiling is lowered but its accesibility was raised. I make no argument on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Because until hit detection and netcode are improved we can't make any 'good' changes. It's all bandaid work. All that being said, it lowers the practical DPS. HMGs are not 800 dps blackstar, simply because due to dispersion (although I think we are using dispersion incorrectly when talking about the HMG but lets go with that for simplicity's sake) those bullets won't and in fact CAN'T all hit. The DPS of the HMG fluctuates a fair bit as (by the sheer chance built into the bullet spread mechanics) some bullets go where you are aiming and some don't. The reason I said an assault can go toe to toe with a heavy is because they can. Dispersion prevents the HMG from reliably headshotting (although it happens, again due to chance, sometimes and of course skill affects this) while any of the rifles can (again with with skill) place EVERY bullet on the heavy's head. So looking at the Assault HMG, it isn't that good up close, or even that good far away (it's not terribad of course) due to DPS and dispersion. If you tighten dispersion so that it fires like it used to fire you have a short range laser rifle (in effect). Super close to the heavy will make him either instagib you or do no damage. At range it may become too powerful because the heavy will be able to put ALL the bullets on YOUR head at range. Only at that time could you say it's an 800DPS (before headshot modifier) weapon. So you would need to lower DPS -- but then when you have lag or dropped frames of damage it would again become pointless. That's basically what ya'll are proposing. Shall the Assault HMG be a short ranged laser rifle?
Finn Colman Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 70	Posted - 2014.11.27 02:32:00 - [18] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Actually no to a lot of you. Braedic, Fox, Breakin, lots of intellegent points to be sure. But y'all are completely forgetting the experience we have already had with the HMG. For starters take Dispersion. The HMG is horrible with no dispersion. Why do we know this? Because for years it HAD no dispersion. It fired like a laser rifle (even though the reticule and the bullet animations showed a cone) and it was complete crap. It's from this that the rooftop camping forge gunner camper was born -- simply because there was pretty much nothing else to do. Then RR heavies when the RR first came out. It wasn't until dispersion was added to the HMG (this was all post RR/CR release) that we saw HMGs again. Until then it was Light Weapon heavy and assault suits all day. Ironically the above dispersion fix lowered the skill ceiling of the gun. A heavy who was SUPER skilled in aiming, AND not lagging, AND not having damage frames dropped on fast suits due to hit detection could literally instagib anything. It was so hard though few did it. And lag and hit detection made this unreliable regardless of skill. Dispersion is what makes the HMG good in close range because it creates a "field" of damage so it's significantly easier to hit. It's skill ceiling is lowered but its accesibility was raised. I make no argument on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Because until hit detection and netcode are improved we can't make any 'good' changes. It's all bandaid work. All that being said, it lowers the practical DPS. HMGs are not 800 dps blackstar, simply because due to dispersion (although I think we are using dispersion incorrectly when talking about the HMG but lets go with that for simplicity's sake) those bullets won't and in fact CAN'T all hit. The DPS of the HMG fluctuates a fair bit as (by the sheer chance built into the bullet spread mechanics) some bullets go where you are aiming and some don't. The reason I said an assault can go toe to toe with a heavy is because they can. Dispersion prevents the HMG from reliably headshotting (although it happens, again due to chance, sometimes and of course skill affects this) while any of the rifles can (again with with skill) place EVERY bullet on the heavy's head. So looking at the Assault HMG, it isn't that good up close, or even that good far away (it's not terribad of course) due to DPS and dispersion. If you tighten dispersion so that it fires like it used to fire you have a short range laser rifle (in effect). Super close to the heavy will make him either instagib you or do no damage. At range it may become too powerful because the heavy will be able to put ALL the bullets on YOUR head at range. Only at that time could you say it's an 800DPS (before headshot modifier) weapon. So you would need to lower DPS -- but then when you have lag or dropped frames of damage it would again become pointless. That's basically what ya'll are proposing. Shall the Assault HMG be a short ranged laser rifle? Nobody suggested making it laser accurate... All that was suggested was a reduction to the dispersion. Reduction does not mean complete elimination. Also, we aren't talking about messing with the regular HMG at all. We are just wanting to make the Assault variant of the HMG more viable at it's intended ranges, and--hypothetically--a reduction to the dispersion of this variant seems like the best way to make this variant effective. The little Min with the little voice.
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 4807	Posted - 2014.11.27 02:53:00 - [19] - Quote While we're at it, Assault weapons should decrease range in favor of more damage, so for consistency's sake, let's do that for the HMG as well.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2160	Posted - 2014.11.27 05:58:00 - [20] - Quote Commander Noctus wrote: Look, just cuz you don't like the breach, doesn't mean you should ner- Oh...you're asking to buff the Assault HMG. That's new. Yeah, sure, definitely needs it. either that or give us a non officer Breach HMG #[[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]



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