DUST Search - A way to make scouts bearable

Maken Tosch wrote:

You basing this on the annoyance caused mainly by shotgun-wielding scouts. Taking away the scout's ability to carry a light weapon is not the way to go as it will punish too many players especially those who are not of the crutch-wielding type like snipers, AR users, etc.

The principle problem with scouts, and I am a dedicated scout player since closed beta who has never spent a single SP on shotguns to this very day, is that they have too many advantages even without the light weapons. You can take away the light weapon and it still won't solve problem. We have EWAR advantages that no other class has. We can recover our shields to full health just by disengaging for a few seconds and then re-engaging under our own terms and not that of the non-scouts. We can cloak effectively without having to worry about our PG/CPU demands. The Minscout doesn't even need a light weapon to compete. Just slap on a pair of Ishukone Nova Knives start OHK-ing heavies without a problem while wreaking havoc with its amazing speed which is another thing non-scouts don't have. As you can see, taking away light weapons won't solve the problem.

CCP Rattati is already looking into overhauling the EWAR mechanics that will likely impact all classes so that scouts won't dominate too much in that department. Tanky scouts are also likely to suffer with the changes hinted by Rattati such as increased profile signature with extenders and plates. Strafe speeds are also being looked into which is another major advantage scouts have over other suits.

HP Modules and Strafe Speed
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181612&find=unread
EWAR
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181381&find=unread

If there is ANY compromise that I am willing to make at this point, it would be the following:
Make it so that scouts only have a light slot available. This way, scouts will be forced to make a choice between fitting a light weapon or a sidearm but not have both at once. Want long-range weapon? Sacrifice the short-range weapon and vise versa.

This compromise I'm willing to make is based on my recent experience with the Logistics class which -- for those who are already skilled into it -- doesn't have a sidearm slot. Yes, I'm now cross training into the GalLogi and so far I am doing just fine with it. I'm just forced to make a choice between a light weapon and a sidearm. I'm just not use to having my profile dampening advantage taken away from me. I feel so naked when I'm spotted. I feel sluggish when I sprint now. Cloaking won't help if my profile is always too high. I can't dictate the terms of the engagement as effectively as I use to when I'm in a Logi suit. In fact, this gave me more proof that it's not the light weaponry that's making the scouts too effective. It's everything else.

PS: What I'm saying here is that those who ask for the removal of light weapons from scouts are clearly ignoring every major advantage that scouts have and are just focusing on the one thing scouts don't have any bonuses towards.

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Crashy Mc Boom-bewm The United Socialist Liberation Front 63	Posted - 2014.11.23 22:37:00 - [1] - Quote So lately scouts have been getting on my nerve (mostly shotgun scouts) i decided to see what the big hubabub was, so i skilled into them. I went proto amarr scout and instead of being a noob, i decided to use only sidearms ( with a scp and kn). I also tried using them with a light weapon and saw no real difference in effectiveness. I suggest that scouts should only be able to wield sidearms, this would put them in a more balanced position right now, and there isnt much trade off. Feedback and ideas are wanted, as of now scouts are way too over powered. They need to be fixed, this would hopefully lead to a closer balance of the scouts. I am the master of all booty and have come to purify you of all the false booty
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 613	Posted - 2014.11.23 22:41:00 - [2] - Quote +1 for originality
Blueprint For Murder Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 397	Posted - 2014.11.23 22:41:00 - [3] - Quote Such a great idea! We need more minds like this! +100 In all seriousness there have been at least 10 threads about it (2 of my own) and the same discussion just happens over and over. I think ccp is now invested in there current path and we will have to wait for it to crash until we get any real change; I just hope the collateral damage isn't to bad. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
gustavo acosta Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 408	Posted - 2014.11.23 23:08:00 - [4] - Quote If originality were a non-renewable resource then this post would have robbed the world of orginality in just a mere 3 sentences. How did you even come up with that? Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault Can I haz ur isk?
Crashy Mc Boom-bewm The United Socialist Liberation Front 64	Posted - 2014.11.23 23:20:00 - [5] - Quote Everyone hates shotgun scouts, the only way to do that is to make em wield sidearms. Plus a scout with a light weapon, as we have all seen, is like fighting a god. I am the master of all booty and have come to purify you of all the false booty
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6129	Posted - 2014.11.23 23:22:00 - [6] - Quote Crashy Mc Boom-bewm wrote: Everyone hates shotgun scouts, the only way to do that is to make em wield sidearms. Plus a scout with a light weapon, as we have all seen, is like fighting a god. Because it is lazier than balancing a legitimate play style, not to mention many others (Scout Sniper), just because you don't want to analyze the real problems and creatively find real solutions? Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Crashy Mc Boom-bewm The United Socialist Liberation Front 64	Posted - 2014.11.23 23:55:00 - [7] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Crashy Mc Boom-bewm wrote: Everyone hates shotgun scouts, the only way to do that is to make em wield sidearms. Plus a scout with a light weapon, as we have all seen, is like fighting a god. Because it is lazier than balancing a legitimate play style, not to mention many others (Scout Sniper), just because you don't want to analyze the real problems and creatively find real solutions? Then What do you suggest? I really do want to know everyones ideas. We need to fix scouts I am the master of all booty and have come to purify you of all the false booty
TheEnd762 SVER True Blood Public.Disorder. 670	Posted - 2014.11.24 00:05:00 - [8] - Quote How about we perma-ban everyone who complains about scouts? That's certainly fix the problem, since scouts aren't actually broken. Try looking up the term "glass cannon". That's what scouts are, and it is incredibly balanced. If ANYTHING, the only thing scouts need is a shield/armor mod cap.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 623	Posted - 2014.11.24 00:39:00 - [9] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: If ANYTHING, the only thing scouts need is a shield/armor mod cap. Efficacy Bonuses, coming soon. Should do the trick.
Crashy Mc Boom-bewm The United Socialist Liberation Front 64	Posted - 2014.11.24 00:45:00 - [10] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: How about we perma-ban everyone who complains about scouts? That's certainly fix the problem, since scouts aren't actually broken. Try looking up the term "glass cannon". That's what scouts are, and it is incredibly balanced. If ANYTHING, the only thing scouts need is a shield/armor mod cap. Really? You think that an invisible, fast, unscannable scout with a basic shotgun that can drop a proto heavy before the heavy can react isnt broken? I am the master of all booty and have come to purify you of all the false booty

Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 623	Posted - 2014.11.24 00:48:00 - [11] - Quote Crashy Mc Boom-bewm wrote: Really? You think that an invisible, fast, unscannable scout with a basic shotgun that can drop a proto heavy before the heavy can react isnt broken? There's no infantry unit in the game more broken than HMG heavies.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6133	Posted - 2014.11.24 00:48:00 - [12] - Quote Crashy Mc Boom-bewm wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Crashy Mc Boom-bewm wrote: Everyone hates shotgun scouts, the only way to do that is to make em wield sidearms. Plus a scout with a light weapon, as we have all seen, is like fighting a god. Because it is lazier than balancing a legitimate play style, not to mention many others (Scout Sniper), just because you don't want to analyze the real problems and creatively find real solutions? Then What do you suggest? I really do want to know everyones ideas. We need to fix scouts Vitantur Nothus wrote: TheEnd762 wrote: If ANYTHING, the only thing scouts need is a shield/armor mod cap. Efficacy Bonuses, coming soon. Should do the trick. This first of all. There are lots of issues surrounding scouts that the Shotgun highlights more than other weapons. I think the efficacy bonus will help make tankier scouts have to make a greater sacrifice, or be more easily scanned. I think they need a real cloak delay instead of the quasi, but not really there, delay that they have now. When you add the possible strafing/speed changes to HP modules, I think that is a good starting place. At that point, we can re-assess where the problems lie and go from there. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10302	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:19:00 - [13] - Quote You basing this on the annoyance caused mainly by shotgun-wielding scouts. Taking away the scout's ability to carry a light weapon is not the way to go as it will punish too many players especially those who are not of the crutch-wielding type like snipers, AR users, etc. The principle problem with scouts, and I am a dedicated scout player since closed beta who has never spent a single SP on shotguns to this very day, is that they have too many advantages even without the light weapons. You can take away the light weapon and it still won't solve problem. We have EWAR advantages that no other class has. We can recover our shields to full health just by disengaging for a few seconds and then re-engaging under our own terms and not that of the non-scouts. We can cloak effectively without having to worry about our PG/CPU demands. The Minscout doesn't even need a light weapon to compete. Just slap on a pair of Ishukone Nova Knives start OHK-ing heavies without a problem while wreaking havoc with its amazing speed which is another thing non-scouts don't have. As you can see, taking away light weapons won't solve the problem. CCP Rattati is already looking into overhauling the EWAR mechanics that will likely impact all classes so that scouts won't dominate too much in that department. Tanky scouts are also likely to suffer with the changes hinted by Rattati such as increased profile signature with extenders and plates. Strafe speeds are also being looked into which is another major advantage scouts have over other suits. HP Modules and Strafe Speed https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181612&find=unread EWAR https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181381&find=unread If there is ANY compromise that I am willing to make at this point, it would be the following: Make it so that scouts only have a light slot available. This way, scouts will be forced to make a choice between fitting a light weapon or a sidearm but not have both at once. Want long-range weapon? Sacrifice the short-range weapon and vise versa. This compromise I'm willing to make is based on my recent experience with the Logistics class which -- for those who are already skilled into it -- doesn't have a sidearm slot. Yes, I'm now cross training into the GalLogi and so far I am doing just fine with it. I'm just forced to make a choice between a light weapon and a sidearm. I'm just not use to having my profile dampening advantage taken away from me. I feel so naked when I'm spotted. I feel sluggish when I sprint now. Cloaking won't help if my profile is always too high. I can't dictate the terms of the engagement as effectively as I use to when I'm in a Logi suit. In fact, this gave me more proof that it's not the light weaponry that's making the scouts too effective. It's everything else. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
JIAF-PR 122	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:52:00 - [14] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: You basing this on the annoyance caused mainly by shotgun-wielding scouts. Taking away the scout's ability to carry a light weapon is not the way to go as it will punish too many players especially those who are not of the crutch-wielding type like snipers, AR users, etc. The principle problem with scouts, and I am a dedicated scout player since closed beta who has never spent a single SP on shotguns to this very day, is that they have too many advantages even without the light weapons. You can take away the light weapon and it still won't solve problem. We have EWAR advantages that no other class has. We can recover our shields to full health just by disengaging for a few seconds and then re-engaging under our own terms and not that of the non-scouts. We can cloak effectively without having to worry about our PG/CPU demands. The Minscout doesn't even need a light weapon to compete. Just slap on a pair of Ishukone Nova Knives start OHK-ing heavies without a problem while wreaking havoc with its amazing speed which is another thing non-scouts don't have. As you can see, taking away light weapons won't solve the problem. CCP Rattati is already looking into overhauling the EWAR mechanics that will likely impact all classes so that scouts won't dominate too much in that department. Tanky scouts are also likely to suffer with the changes hinted by Rattati such as increased profile signature with extenders and plates. Strafe speeds are also being looked into which is another major advantage scouts have over other suits. HP Modules and Strafe Speed https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181612&find=unread EWAR https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181381&find=unread If there is ANY compromise that I am willing to make at this point, it would be the following: Make it so that scouts only have a light slot available. This way, scouts will be forced to make a choice between fitting a light weapon or a sidearm but not have both at once. Want long-range weapon? Sacrifice the short-range weapon and vise versa. This compromise I'm willing to make is based on my recent experience with the Logistics class which -- for those who are already skilled into it -- doesn't have a sidearm slot. Yes, I'm now cross training into the GalLogi and so far I am doing just fine with it. I'm just forced to make a choice between a light weapon and a sidearm. I'm just not use to having my profile dampening advantage taken away from me. I feel so naked when I'm spotted. I feel sluggish when I sprint now. Cloaking won't help if my profile is always too high. I can't dictate the terms of the engagement as effectively as I use to when I'm in a Logi suit. In fact, this gave me more proof that it's not the light weaponry that's making the scouts too effective. It's everything else. PS: What I'm saying here is that those who ask for the removal of light weapons from scouts are clearly ignoring every major advantage that scouts have and are just focusing on the one thing scouts don't have any bonuses towards. Are you trying to kill almost bled MinScout? "Los grandes no son grandes sino porque estamos de rodillas. Levantémonos" GÇô Pedro Albizu Campos
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10303	Posted - 2014.11.24 03:07:00 - [15] - Quote JIAF-PR wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: If there is ANY compromise that I am willing to make at this point, it would be the following: Make it so that scouts only have a light slot available. This way, scouts will be forced to make a choice between fitting a light weapon or a sidearm but not have both at once. Want long-range weapon? Sacrifice the short-range weapon and vise versa. This compromise I'm willing to make is based on my recent experience with the Logistics class which -- for those who are already skilled into it -- doesn't have a sidearm slot. Yes, I'm now cross training into the GalLogi and so far I am doing just fine with it. I'm just forced to make a choice between a light weapon and a sidearm. I'm just not use to having my profile dampening advantage taken away from me. I feel so naked when I'm spotted. I feel sluggish when I sprint now. Cloaking won't help if my profile is always too high. I can't dictate the terms of the engagement as effectively as I use to when I'm in a Logi suit. In fact, this gave me more proof that it's not the light weaponry that's making the scouts too effective. It's everything else. Are you trying to kill almost bled MinScout? I said it as a compromise, not as a demand or anything. Overall, I'm still of the opinion we should keep both slots for the scout since weaponry is not the main issue with scouts here. PS: I'm primarily Minscout. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Crashy Mc Boom-bewm The United Socialist Liberation Front 64	Posted - 2014.11.24 04:11:00 - [16] - Quote I see what your poking at, but we should probably keep both our weapon slots. In the case that our god and savior rattati is making some changes to the scout, we should try to "fix" shotgun scouts. Maybe make it so only the proto varient can drop a heavy in 3 shots. I am the master of all booty and have come to purify you of all the false booty
Blueprint For Murder Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 401	Posted - 2014.11.24 06:17:00 - [17] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: TheEnd762 wrote: If ANYTHING, the only thing scouts need is a shield/armor mod cap. Efficacy Bonuses, coming soon. Should do the trick. Yea, just like all the other changes... At least this one effects all the classes lol... To you guys saying it is targeting shotgun scouts, it isn't. What sidearms are meant to do is lower the dps period so that everyone gets a chance to react when a scout attacks them. Which is something that is not addressed in any of the changes and the reason that the changes have been so ineffectual. The problems with scouts are as much psychological as mechanical and will continue to be in either a state of broken/op until both are addressed, because as it is now scouts don't have to fight so most of the time players don't get to either. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 634	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:13:00 - [18] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: TheEnd762 wrote: If ANYTHING, the only thing scouts need is a shield/armor mod cap. Efficacy Bonuses, coming soon. Should do the trick. Yea, just like all the other changes... At least this one effects all the classes lol... To you guys saying it is targeting shotgun scouts, it isn't. What sidearms are meant to do is lower the dps period so that everyone gets a chance to react when a scout attacks them. Which is something that is not addressed in any of the changes and the reason that the changes have been so ineffectual. The problems with scouts are as much psychological as mechanical and will continue to be in either a state of broken/op until both are addressed, because as it is now scouts don't have to fight, so most of the time players don't get to either. A scout should not be a ohker, it should be a cleaver assassin, where your wits are your assets, not a shotgun nor a cloak. When I said "efficacy bonuses" I was referring to Scout EWAR bonuses being rewired to point to module instead of frame. Specifically: CA Scout - Won't benefit from bonus to dampening or range unless dampening or range modules are equipped. GA Scout - Won't benefit from bonus to dampening or precision unless dampening or precision modules are equipped. AM Scout - Won't benefit from bonus to precision unless precision modules are equipped. This change will create numerous drawbacks for those keen on running armor instead of EWAR on Scouts. Combined with "all the other changes", I suspect we'll see far fewer high-HP Scouts.
shaman oga Krullefor Organization 3298	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:22:00 - [19] - Quote I was about to post a similar thread, but i'll write it in yours. Logi should be locked to swarm launcher, with all their equipments they will not have to worry about nothing. Situational awareness also known as passive scan.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5295	Posted - 2014.11.24 15:32:00 - [20] - Quote Shotgun scouts can only be fixed if ewar is no longer binary. Or if their fitting costs made it so they die when a toy poodle barks at them too loudly. It's either EWAR is too effective or they are too tanky. I'm not sure scouts will ever get fixed because that will require inertia on dropsuits. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Ace Boone Capital Acquisitions LLC 398	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:33:00 - [21] - Quote People just can't accept that their gonna fcking die sometimes, especially when putting themselves in line of fire. Holy ***, if you don't wanna get ganked, just be aware of your surroundings. You can hear the decloak sound from a mile away, damn. It's no different from being raped by an HMG, or even a plasma cannon or remote explosive. Sometimes you will die, and it will be quick. Only loyal to the republic.
Blueprint For Murder Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 403	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:45:00 - [22] - Quote Scouts are meant to be stealthy is something I think we can all agree on so that takes ewar out of the discussion. I personally have never faced a scout and thought to myself that he has to much hp only that I had to little as a scout of course most of the time I am ohk by them so there hp might have upset me should I had a chance to fight them. I also understand that their capabilities out weigh assaults, but believe a direct nerf is a much better choice then the use of penalties to reduce customization options. I also believe both are equally ineffective because as we have stated scouts are meant to be stealthy and that as a scout hp really means little because of our stealth so while you may face a slightly less hp scout I will still most likely kill you. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
The Master Race Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 405	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:45:00 - [23] - Quote Scouts are meant to be stealthy is something I think we can all agree on so that takes ewar out of the discussion. I personally have never faced a scout and thought to myself that he has to much hp only that I had to little as a scout of course most of the time I am ohk by them so there hp might have upset me should I had a chance to fight them. I also understand that their capabilities out weigh assaults, but believe a direct nerf is a much better choice then the use of penalties to reduce customization options. I also believe both are equally ineffective because as we have stated scouts are meant to be stealthy and that as a scout hp really means little because of our stealth so while you may face a slightly less hp scout I will still most likely kill you. Scout dps is the same as every other class apart from heavies and they get the jump on people so it looks something like this currently and will continue this way: Scout Dps+ > Assault dps Scout Dps+ = Sent hmg Sent Hmg > Assault dps The reason for the class balance we have now and I do not think that assaults need a buff I do however believe that scouts should be made side arm only and hmg dispersion be increased effectively reducing its range. Which make balance shift to this: Assault dps (range) > Side arm scout dps+ Assault dps (CQC) = Side arm scout dps+ Assault dps (range) > Sent dps Assault dps (CQC) < Sent dps Sscout dps+ (ranged) = Sent dps Sscout dps+ (CQC) < Sent dps Now this may look a little one sided for scouts, but with all of our abilities it should be no problem to win with side arms including the nova knife which moves the favor to scouts in each CQC scenario, but because of the difficulty of use remains balanced. Commandos will be a bit of a wild card in this scenario. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2283	Posted - 2014.11.24 17:41:00 - [24] - Quote I regularly use a dual sidearm Cal Scout. No issues doing quite well with it, but you really need to choose your battles, as the shotgun puts out more than double the DPS. That said, I think the heavies need the shotgun as a hard counter, so we need to be very careful as to not tip the balance by nerfing the scout/shotgun too much. IMO, the answer is EWAR. If scouts have less of an advantage over medium suits, much of the QQ goes away, I think, and the hard counter to heavies remains.
Crashy Mc Boom-bewm The United Socialist Liberation Front 70	Posted - 2014.11.25 02:55:00 - [25] - Quote Ace Boone wrote: People just can't accept that their gonna fcking die sometimes, especially when putting themselves in line of fire. Holy ***, if you don't wanna get ganked, just be aware of your surroundings. You can hear the decloak sound from a mile away, damn. It's no different from being raped by an HMG, or even a plasma cannon or remote explosive. Sometimes you will die, and it will be quick. I consider every suit i pull out dead. Its not the problem that im dieing, its that most of my deaths recently have been by scouts. Btw i dont have my sound volume up high beacause i talk to team mates, so i cant really hear the decloacking sound or re I am the master of all booty and have come to purify you of all the false booty
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 650	Posted - 2014.11.25 03:38:00 - [26] - Quote Crashy Mc Boom-bewm wrote: [ Btw i dont have my sound volume up high beacause i talk to team mates, so i cant really hear the decloacking sound or re "Scouts are OP because they get the drop on me while I'm not paying attention. All I want to do is talk to my friends!" Bravo! 9/10. Had no idea you were trolling us!
da GAND Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 992	Posted - 2014.11.25 04:26:00 - [27] - Quote Or put some kind of weight limit for the scouts, for example if they have a light weapon they can't carry a side arm and maybe reduce the equipment slot to 1 if they have a light weapon. Should Legion be on the ps4?
TheEnd762 SVER True Blood Public.Disorder. 670	Posted - 2014.11.25 05:01:00 - [28] - Quote Scouts sacrifice a significant amount of armor/shield for their speed and stealthiness. The shotgun sacrifices range for power. A proto heavy (untanked) should absolutely die to 3 shots from a shotgun, I don't care who's firing it. Why? Because if it's a scout, and that proto heavy has ANY weapon, save for a swarm launcher, sniper rifle, nova knives, or possibly a forge gun, that scout is going to die 10/10 times. Even a proto scout to a militia scrambler pistol, and THAT is not balanced. Are cloaked shotgun scouts annoying? Maybe. But that doesn't change the fact that if you have even the slightest bit of skill and that scout doesn't kill you in less than 1.5 seconds, it's dead, guaranteed.
You Are Inferior Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2014.11.26 10:16:00 - [29] - Quote bump
Lightning35 Delta514 48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE 105	Posted - 2014.11.26 11:31:00 - [30] - Quote If you take its light away, then what's the point of having snipers and shotguns. Every other dropsuit has one. There are other ways to tackle scouts. Takeaway one equipment slot and refuse their total hp so they are easier to kill Minmatar-assault combat rifle, flaylock pistol, tanked, quick. Before you know it..........your dead.......



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Can I haz ur isk?