DUST Search - Debate Room Gal/Cal

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

The Gallente aren't trying to control the Caldari. They're trying to ensure that their cities aren't razed and their worlds aren't auctioned off.
Not only is it falsely accusatory, but it's also rather hypocritical of you to point fingers at the Federation for destroying cultures.
Let's look at the Intaki example. When the Intaki were discovered, the Gallente respected their culture, assisted them technologically, and ultimately the Intaki evolved naturally into their own entity - the Intaki Assembly, an entity which remains distinct to this day. The Caldari took zero interest in the Intaki, and focused on developing their secret colonies.

When the Caldari encountered the Achura while building these colonies, they crushed them and instated Caldari rule.

Some time later, the Intaki homeworld found itself being auctioned by the Caldari. The Caldari decry the Gallenteans for holding Caldari Prime (which is primarily inhabited by ethnic Gallente), complain about the loss of their culture, how precious their homeworld is, and then they go ahead and literally sell the Intaki homeworld for industry, a world steeped in culture and the birthplace of a people.

Frankly, the war and secession never should have happened. They wouldn't have happened, either, except people were quite ludicrously provocative. In case you ever find yourself a diplomat, let me advise you that in the event of a solid ally getting upset with you for secretly building a military, the correct way of dealing with that ally is not to immediately break off all alliances with them and then blow up one of their cities.

If the Gallente were truly bent on conquering the Caldari, there is little you could do to stop them. The Caldari State is under half the size of the Federation - if the Federation chose to throw everything into crushing the Caldari, it would happen. It would be bloody in the extreme, but it would happen.

Similarly, if the Amarr Empire threw everything into assaulting the Federation, the Federation would almost certainly lose. Again, it would be bloody in the extreme, but in the end that is how it would play out.

Nobody wants to go into a full scale war, though, exactly because of how insanely costly it would be.
All the empires would make any conquest of them a long and grinding war at best.

The Amarr have ridiculously large fleets and are the largest group in the cluster.
The Caldari have a highly militarised state where everyone in their small population is required to serve.
The Gallente have the strongest economy in New Eden, and the Minmatar have a habit of coming back to bite their conquerors as well as being far more closely allied with the Federation than the Amarr are allied with the Caldari.

If it came down to it, though, and the empires all went full military, the Amarr would win. Not that there'd be many people left, after that. As any war drags on, sides get more desperate and more brutalities happen. Given the obscene amount of damage modern weaponry can do, I would be unsurprised to see doomsday weapons deployed against planetary populations. The Caldari have already almost tried it.

As for why I fight the Caldari as well as the Amarr: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2458442#post2458442

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Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19401	Posted - 2014.11.26 17:33:00 - [61] - Quote Faith pretends to explain it. I do not disregard the possibility of a divine entity existing. I do, however, object to the rigid obsession the Amarrians have. Based on nothing but irrational convictions, they have butchered and enslaved for centuries. Worlds subjugated, cultures crushed, and people exterminated. It goes against everything I believe in, and principles of logic and reason have never supported them. The existence of a divine entity does not mandate the Amarrian's religious crusades. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Glorious pink victory has been achieved.
sir RAVEN WING Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 514	Posted - 2014.11.26 17:46:00 - [62] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Faith pretends to explain it. I do not disregard the possibility of a divine entity existing. I do, however, object to the rigid obsession the Amarrians have. Based on nothing but irrational convictions, they have butchered and enslaved for centuries. Worlds subjugated, cultures crushed, and people exterminated. It goes against everything I believe in, and principles of logic and reason have never supported them. The existence of a divine entity does not mandate the Amarrian's religious crusades. Yet you fight us? Accuse us too! I do agree that destroying cultures (much like the Gallente try to do at times) is wrong and I see the Caldari and Amarr's alliance a fragile one. We destroy you, amarr turn on us, then it will become quantity vs quality. Hopefully quality will win there. I'd agree on a alliance with the federation to make sure they don't try to convert every single person ever to live, but I'd be wary of the federation due to it having a good place to backstab the Caldari. I used to wish that the Gallente would accept the fact we don't want you controlling us... that was replaced by pure hatred long ago, a hatred of your people fueled by your people's actions. Well things can't be changed by one person on the ground... Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the Raider Scout's colour.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19405	Posted - 2014.11.26 19:01:00 - [63] - Quote The Gallente aren't trying to control the Caldari. They're trying to ensure that their cities aren't razed and their worlds aren't auctioned off. Not only is it falsely accusatory, but it's also rather hypocritical of you to point fingers at the Federation for destroying cultures. Let's look at the Intaki example. When the Intaki were discovered, the Gallente respected their culture, assisted them technologically, and ultimately the Intaki evolved naturally into their own entity - the Intaki Assembly, an entity which remains distinct to this day. The Caldari took zero interest in the Intaki, and focused on developing their secret colonies. When the Caldari encountered the Achura while building these colonies, they crushed them and instated Caldari rule. Some time later, the Intaki homeworld found itself being auctioned by the Caldari. The Caldari decry the Gallenteans for holding Caldari Prime (which is primarily inhabited by ethnic Gallente), complain about the loss of their culture, how precious their homeworld is, and then they go ahead and literally sell the Intaki homeworld for industry, a world steeped in culture and the birthplace of a people. Frankly, the war and secession never should have happened. They wouldn't have happened, either, except people were quite ludicrously provocative. In case you ever find yourself a diplomat, let me advise you that in the event of a solid ally getting upset with you for secretly building a military, the correct way of dealing with that ally is not to immediately break off all alliances with them and then blow up one of their cities. If the Gallente were truly bent on conquering the Caldari, there is little you could do to stop them. The Caldari State is under half the size of the Federation - if the Federation chose to throw everything into crushing the Caldari, it would happen. It would be bloody in the extreme, but it would happen. Similarly, if the Amarr Empire threw everything into assaulting the Federation, the Federation would almost certainly lose. Again, it would be bloody in the extreme, but in the end that is how it would play out. Nobody wants to go into a full scale war, though, exactly because of how insanely costly it would be. All the empires would make any conquest of them a long and grinding war at best. The Amarr have ridiculously large fleets and are the largest group in the cluster. The Caldari have a highly militarised state where everyone in their small population is required to serve. The Gallente have the strongest economy in New Eden, and the Minmatar have a habit of coming back to bite their conquerors as well as being far more closely allied with the Federation than the Amarr are allied with the Caldari. If it came down to it, though, and the empires all went full military, the Amarr would win. Not that there'd be many people left, after that. As any war drags on, sides get more desperate and more brutalities happen. Given the obscene amount of damage modern weaponry can do, I would be unsurprised to see doomsday weapons deployed against planetary populations. The Caldari have already almost tried it. As for why I fight the Caldari as well as the Amarr: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2458442#post2458442 You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Glorious pink victory has been achieved.
sir RAVEN WING Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 516	Posted - 2014.11.26 19:46:00 - [64] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The Gallente aren't trying to control the Caldari. They're trying to ensure that their cities aren't razed and their worlds aren't auctioned off. Not only is it falsely accusatory, but it's also rather hypocritical of you to point fingers at the Federation for destroying cultures. Let's look at the Intaki example. When the Intaki were discovered, the Gallente respected their culture, assisted them technologically, and ultimately the Intaki evolved naturally into their own entity - the Intaki Assembly, an entity which remains distinct to this day. The Caldari took zero interest in the Intaki, and focused on developing their secret colonies. When the Caldari encountered the Achura while building these colonies, they crushed them and instated Caldari rule. Some time later, the Intaki homeworld found itself being auctioned by the Caldari. The Caldari decry the Gallenteans for holding Caldari Prime (which is primarily inhabited by ethnic Gallente), complain about the loss of their culture, how precious their homeworld is, and then they go ahead and literally sell the Intaki homeworld for industry, a world steeped in culture and the birthplace of a people. Frankly, the war and secession never should have happened. They wouldn't have happened, either, except people were quite ludicrously provocative. In case you ever find yourself a diplomat, let me advise you that in the event of a solid ally getting upset with you for secretly building a military, the correct way of dealing with that ally is not to immediately break off all alliances with them and then blow up one of their cities. If the Gallente were truly bent on conquering the Caldari, there is little you could do to stop them. The Caldari State is under half the size of the Federation - if the Federation chose to throw everything into crushing the Caldari, it would happen. It would be bloody in the extreme, but it would happen. Similarly, if the Amarr Empire threw everything into assaulting the Federation, the Federation would almost certainly lose. Again, it would be bloody in the extreme, but in the end that is how it would play out. Nobody wants to go into a full scale war, though, exactly because of how insanely costly it would be. All the empires would make any conquest of them a long and grinding war at best. The Amarr have ridiculously large fleets and are the largest group in the cluster. The Caldari have a highly militarised state where everyone in their small population is required to serve. The Gallente have the strongest economy in New Eden, and the Minmatar have a habit of coming back to bite their conquerors as well as being far more closely allied with the Federation than the Amarr are allied with the Caldari. If it came down to it, though, and the empires all went full military, the Amarr would win. Not that there'd be many people left, after that. As any war drags on, sides get more desperate and more brutalities happen. Given the obscene amount of damage modern weaponry can do, I would be unsurprised to see doomsday weapons deployed against planetary populations. The Caldari have already almost tried it. As for why I fight the Caldari as well as the Amarr: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2458442#post2458442 Well at least we didn't tear down their cultural building to replace with facilities, we may not have been the best to them, but we have been better than you. You make us look the villains, and we may look like that on the surface just as you look the heroes on the surface, but there is more than that. ((I don't know how that came out... :/)) The Caldari would survive an attack, just as any empire with us 'immortals' would, until the loyalists like us are gone there will be war. You (again) say the extremist group is us as a whole, that is wrong, we are flawed, but we are different than you. ((Okay things are coming out the wrong way)) Uh... I'll be back soon... ((I'm going to find what a certain person said)) also please stop saying "The Caldari were smaller so they destroyed a city and began war." ((paraphrasing abit)) *For The State!*
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19412	Posted - 2014.11.26 19:53:00 - [65] - Quote Paraphrasing a lot, and incorrectly. So you say that you are better than us. How? Quote: Well at least we didn't tear down their cultural building to replace with facilities, we may not have been the best to them, but we have been better than you. This is exactly what you did. Even monasteries were razed if they were on a convenient mining site. How is this better than our respectful treatment of the Intaki, exactly? By the way, your extremist group was your government for a while. It's not really much good saying that they weren't representative of you, because they most certainly were. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Glorious pink victory has been achieved.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15089	Posted - 2014.11.26 23:08:00 - [66] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Paraphrasing a lot, and incorrectly. So you say that you are better than us. How? Quote: Well at least we didn't tear down their cultural building to replace with facilities, we may not have been the best to them, but we have been better than you. This is exactly what you did. Even monasteries were razed if they were on a convenient mining site. How is this better than our respectful treatment of the Intaki, exactly? By the way, your extremist group was your government for a while. It's not really much good saying that they weren't representative of you, because they most certainly were. As I understand it the Sukuivestaa Megacorporation rather brutally annexed the Achuran home world...... Moreover Arkena if Denak were still with us, God preserve that man, I doubt he would agree with you all that much regarding the treatment of the Intaki people. I would hazard to suggest that it is a testament to your lack of respectful treatment of the Matari that organisations like the Intaki Syndicate, Intaki Liberation Front, and groups like I-RED in the region are attempting to stabilise Placid and prevent the home world of one of your primary bloodlines from being designated Low Security Space and one of the regions CONCORD allows capsuleers to fight over. That is poor treatment indeed for people you claim to hold as equals. I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
sir RAVEN WING Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 519	Posted - 2014.11.26 23:33:00 - [67] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Paraphrasing a lot, and incorrectly. So you say that you are better than us. How? Quote: Well at least we didn't tear down their cultural building to replace with facilities, we may not have been the best to them, but we have been better than you. This is exactly what you did. Even monasteries were razed if they were on a convenient mining site. How is this better than our respectful treatment of the Intaki, exactly? By the way, your extremist group was your government for a while. It's not really much good saying that they weren't representative of you, because they most certainly were. I need to stop talking to so many of their capsuleers... Seem to hate us both, but us quite a bit less... *For The State!*
Galm Fae Eskola Ergonomics 353	Posted - 2014.11.27 04:33:00 - [68] - Quote Gods, spirits, winds, and the Allfather will no true sons or daughters of the State step forward to adequately represent us in this debate? (And I use the term debate more loosely than a rifter bolt, believe me you.) The tact and decorum in here is hopelessly disgusting in a way I'm sure only a deteis and a federation politician can manage. I on the other hand have no qualms about being direct if only to prove that not all my countrymen are incompetent. Ehm... And no offense to the Templar but this does seem outside of his forte. The folly of my fellow Caldari henceforth has been to attempt to justify are actions to you in relation to Federation politics. I don't expect you to be able to think beyond your station and understand the occupation of foreign planets from a Caldari standpoint. First of all, your claim that the State simply conquered the Achura homeworld after a brutal occupation was entirely without merit. Though Gallente textbooks may paint a different story, history forgets that the Achura were once a forgotten fragment of the Gallente homogeneity just as the Caldari once where. When we chose to break free form the Gallente, so too did the Achura. They were a meek people, utterly defensive against your rampant government trying to forcibly bind the universe to your law. The Caldari offered them hope as our protectorate, offering necessary protection and economic aid at the cost of their own sovereignty. What you may perceive as occupation were brave patriots keeping the watch for our own kindred spirits, and in time Achura became a closely trusted and valued member of the Caldari State. They were never our prisoners, they were our brothers. As for the occupation of the Intaki homeworld, you fail to understand certain vital aspects about the State administration. First of all, the Intaki culture was never in danger of being suppressed by State control. The Intaki Ida and the Caldari Way bare more in common than the Intaki Assembly and the Gallente Federation share among themselves. The State when out of our way following the war to grant Intaki sympathizers their own land within the State to practice their beliefs as a member of the Caldari. My father, rest his soul, sough to their sovereignty as a paramilitary during the Waschi Uprising. The Intaki were conquered as a military target out of necessity to liberate our own homeworld, a key stepping stone between us and Luminaire to reclaim what was rightfully our planet. The supposed evil of auctioning off Intaki Prime was nothing other than a well established method of organizing a stable government in Intaki. When CONCORD slated Intaki as a limited engagement zone, the Syndicate became little more than a lawless territory turned into a glassed hellscape between our warring factions. Organizing proper relief efforts for the Intaki people required more than the Provist lead military could accomplish, especially in a time of war. In a corporation led state, auctioning off the planet was not as simple as "buying the Intaki out" as your government may claim. Once a planet is under corporation control, the corporate administration can get to work on forming a rule of law. Ishukone spending untold sums to claim ownership of Intaki was not a sign of greed, but infinite compassion and willingness to claim the responsibility of Intaki citizens. After a preliminary corporate dictatorship, I have little doubt that in peacetime once order was established and infrastructure maintained, the system would begin to gravitate to a meritocractic institution that valued the Intaki as equals just as the Achura. This is all to say nothing of the Dragonaur mercenaries and the role they played in erecting a necessary invasion force. For all the discontent generated in the wake of the fascist policies Heth put in place, the Provists were no doubt effective in their ability to mobilize a nation. *Kirjuun! Uakan! Teknikiara! Kanpai kameitsamuu! Ra ra ra!* > --Confirmed Badguy Cera YC116--
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 6387	Posted - 2014.12.14 07:15:00 - [69] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Gravity can be tested. Gravity can be proved. Gravity can be defined. God cannot. All the basic tenets of science which brought humanity so far are cast away in religious fervour. God is just another name for that that created all and keeps all in balance. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 9567	Posted - 2015.02.14 07:16:00 - [70] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Gravity can be tested. Gravity can be proved. Gravity can be defined. God cannot. All the basic tenets of science which brought humanity so far are cast away in religious fervour. God is just another name for that that created all and keeps all in balance. So you're saying CCP is god? *~New Eden's #1 Gallente Arm's Dealer*

sir RAVEN WING Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 3074	Posted - 2015.02.28 19:12:00 - [71] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Gravity can be tested. Gravity can be proved. Gravity can be defined. God cannot. All the basic tenets of science which brought humanity so far are cast away in religious fervour. God is just another name for that that created all and keeps all in balance. So you're saying CCP is god? Silly you, they keep thing unbalanced. *Quoth the Raven "Nevermore!"* - Edgar Allan Poe CCP Falcon has betrayed me... twice. I will steal his hamsters!


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Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the Raider Scout's colour.

For The State!

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