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Mejt0
Puff n Puffers
492
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Posted - 2014.11.11 11:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Scouts are even more tanked/without dampeners. Kinda annoying when it comes to scout v scout battle.
Caldari Loyalist
Markiplier fan.
Got 6815 WP only on wrecking tanks with Ion Cannon.
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BLOOD Ruler
The Lionheart Coalition
695
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Posted - 2014.11.11 12:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
No real scouts any more.
Feel the pain of my knives and the piercing pain your skull has felt to my pistol.I am the Assassin.
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
126
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Posted - 2014.11.11 12:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
What did you expect? Anywho, here's how to fix:
First, nerf Scouts until they're plainly underpowered. Then ...
Add a mass measure to dropsuits; the more the mass, the more movement metrics are affected. Movement metrics should include strafe speed, movement speed, sprint speed, backpedal speed, and rotation speed.
* Cures the assault-lite "strafe" scout * Cures the insta-spinning HMG heavy (part of the reason why scouts HP tank) * Addresses HP Module market dominance. * Encourages build diversity * Addresses "HP is King" PC meta
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Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens Capital Punishment.
2527
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Posted - 2014.11.11 13:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
The most Scout fits were severely stacking HP anyway, so what exactly changed? At least this way people with E-War are more easily seen and it isn't just a 'free lunch' *shrug*
"This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
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DTOracle
BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
362
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Posted - 2014.11.11 13:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Scouts are even more tanked/without dampeners. Kinda annoying when it comes to scout v scout battle. I called it. Don't say you weren't warned. |
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
VEHICLEBUSTERS Demolitions and Logistics Corp .
1377
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Posted - 2014.11.11 13:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
[quote=Vitantur Nothus] Rotation speed.
I can agree with everything that you said besides this , that's because .. if you played scout , you know how a sentinel turns to defend and actually it's not fast now , you can strafe and SG or NK or any other quick kill weapon them because they don't turn fast with a HMG ( contrary to what people say , if you can't kill them then your the one with the problem because I can do it and I suck at scout and using SG and NK ) so this kinda makes them even more instakillable .
This is such a bad idea and when I see people saying this I just can't help but to think that their bias and just anti-heavy because scouts already do wreak heavies with a third and sometimes less of HP's and this would increase the scouts numbers more because that's part of the problem already is the fact that they are instakill monsters .
I can understand the premise and all but if that part of your proposal ( if enacted because this is how it should be and I've thought along the same lines myself ) didn't effect heavies then I would be all onboard .
You can say that you play heavy all you like and the rest of the talk but anybody that has played multiple roles without bias , just knows how wrong this would be for heavies .
Say what you will but they turn fast enough ( barely ) to defend themselves and that's how it should be .
Weight discrepancies would just handicap that role .
They already have enough .
Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
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Repe Susi
Rautaleijona
1498
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Posted - 2014.11.11 13:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bah. Scout for stealth jobs, Assault for hp-tanking. Nothing really changes.
Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. ~ Isaac Asimov
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
127
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Posted - 2014.11.11 13:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:[quote=Vitantur Nothus] Rotation speed.
I can agree with everything that you said besides this , that's because .. if you played scout , you know how a sentinel turns to defend and actually it's not fast now , you can strafe and SG or NK or any other quick kill weapon them because they don't turn fast with a HMG ( contrary to what people say , if you can't kill them then your the one with the problem because I can do it and I suck at scout and using SG and NK ) so this kinda makes them even more instakillable .
This is such a bad idea and when I see people saying this I just can't help but to think that their bias and just anti-heavy because scouts already do wreak heavies with a third and sometimes less of HP's and this would increase the scouts numbers more because that's part of the problem already is the fact that they are instakill monsters .
I can understand the premise and all but if that part of your proposal ( if enacted because this is how it should be and I've thought along the same lines myself ) didn't effect heavies then I would be all onboard .
You can say that you play heavy all you like and the rest of the talk but anybody that has played multiple roles without bias , just knows how wrong this would be for heavies .
Say what you will but they turn fast enough ( barely ) to defend themselves and that's how it should be .
Weight discrepancies would just handicap that role .
They already have enough .
When we lifted the rotation cap, we lifted the Heavies vulnerability to attacks from behind. An HMG Heavy should decimate anything in front of him, but he should panic if successfully flanked. To quote Breakin' Stuff, like a turtle on its back.
FYI: Increasing your input sensitivity increases your rotation speed. A 1,500HP Sentinel rotates as quickly a 300HP Scout. If you still feel you're turning too slowly, perhaps try a KB/M. From what I've been told, these permit the fastest and tightest pirouettes (though I've not tested). |
Kain Spero
Goonfeet
3771
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Posted - 2014.11.11 14:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
The cloak nerf didn't actually work.
Edit: As in there is no delay between decloak and shooting.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
103
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Posted - 2014.11.11 14:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:It isn't "role hating" to say that heavies are afforded too great an opportunity to emerge victorious from flank attacks.
When we lifted the rotation cap, we lifted the Heavies vulnerability to attacks from behind. An HMG Heavy should decimate anything in front of him, but he should panic when successfully flanked. To quote Breakin' Stuff, like a turtle on its back.
FYI: Increasing your input sensitivity increases your rotation speed. A 1,500HP Sentinel rotates as quickly a 300HP Scout. If you still feel you're turning too slowly, perhaps try a KB/M. From what I've been told, these permit the fastest and tightest pirouettes (though I've not tested).
Except that you're taking that out of context. He was explicitly saying that in reference to it being a horrible terrible mechanic. If the HMG heavy is supposed to be CQB dominance, then it can't have a turnspeed limit, otherwise everything will simply orbit them and shoot them in the side of the head.
The only difference from the Chrome era would be that heavies will just take longer to helplessly die to people doing that.
With that said, Breakin also has an excellent thread on evicting HMG heavies from CQB and making them long-range fire support instead. Check it out here.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star. EoN.
2361
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Posted - 2014.11.11 14:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
I do eWar on my scout fits.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
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Cody Sietz
Evzones Public.Disorder.
4109
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Posted - 2014.11.11 14:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yeah, kind of not shocked...
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
130
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Posted - 2014.11.11 15:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:Vitantur Nothus wrote:It isn't "role hating" to say that heavies are afforded too great an opportunity to emerge victorious from flank attacks.
When we lifted the rotation cap, we lifted the Heavies vulnerability to attacks from behind. An HMG Heavy should decimate anything in front of him, but he should panic when successfully flanked. To quote Breakin' Stuff, like a turtle on its back.
FYI: Increasing your input sensitivity increases your rotation speed. A 1,500HP Sentinel rotates as quickly a 300HP Scout. If you still feel you're turning too slowly, perhaps try a KB/M. From what I've been told, these permit the fastest and tightest pirouettes (though I've not tested). Except that you're taking that out of context. He was explicitly saying that in reference to it being a horrible terrible mechanic. If the HMG heavy is supposed to be CQB dominance, then it can't have a turnspeed limit, otherwise everything will simply orbit them and shoot them in the side of the head. The only difference from the Chrome era would be that heavies will just take longer to helplessly die to people doing that. With that said, Breakin also has an excellent thread on evicting HMG heavies from CQB and making them long-range fire support instead. Check it out here.
I agree with you. We can't have mercs winning frontal assaults vs HMG heavies simply by orbiting them. I concede, but we should still try to find a way to address the "insta-spin-and-win" maneuver; it plays a major part in why Scouts HP tank.
Perhaps a back stab multiplier would prove a better solution. |
Spectral Clone
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
3104
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Posted - 2014.11.11 15:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/1500/9121
Scout counter. Bait them and BLAP!
EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
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Aiwha Bait
Demonic Cowboys
28
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Posted - 2014.11.11 15:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:The cloak nerf didn't actually work.
Edit: As in there is no delay between decloak and shooting.
3/10 of a second is very quick. I'm sure it's there, it's just too quick for you to notice. ;)
That said, I've never run p*ssy cloaks, but I do run Amarr scout.
"Welcome my son. Welcome to the machine..."
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
131
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Posted - 2014.11.11 15:38:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aiwha Bait wrote:Kain Spero wrote:The cloak nerf didn't actually work.
Edit: As in there is no delay between decloak and shooting. 3/10 of a second is very quick. I'm sure it's there, it's just too quick for you to notice. ;) That said, I've never run p*ssy cloaks, but I do run Amarr scout.
1. Thought the delay the supposed to be increased to 2 seconds. 2. Assault Lite is far easier and poses a far greater problem than sneaking. |
Mejt0
Puff n Puffers
493
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Posted - 2014.11.11 15:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Aiwha Bait wrote:Kain Spero wrote:The cloak nerf didn't actually work.
Edit: As in there is no delay between decloak and shooting. 3/10 of a second is very quick. I'm sure it's there, it's just too quick for you to notice. ;) That said, I've never run p*ssy cloaks, but I do run Amarr scout.
It's not about delay but range decrease.
Also saying that cloaks are for pussies is like saying you are p*ssy cus you are using eqiupment.
Caldari Loyalist
Markiplier fan.
Got 6815 WP only on wrecking tanks with Ion Cannon.
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Aiwha Bait
Demonic Cowboys
28
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Posted - 2014.11.11 17:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Aiwha Bait wrote:Kain Spero wrote:The cloak nerf didn't actually work.
Edit: As in there is no delay between decloak and shooting. 3/10 of a second is very quick. I'm sure it's there, it's just too quick for you to notice. ;) That said, I've never run p*ssy cloaks, but I do run Amarr scout. It's not about delay but range decrease. Also saying that cloaks are for pussies is like saying you are p*ssy cus you are using eqiupment.
No, that's not the same thing at all. Using cloaks to turn invisible and shoot somebody in the back, and then cloaking back up, for the sake of running away, is what makes it a p*ssy piece of equipment and makes a p*ssy player. I'm all about using equipment. I love it. I love my ammo and rep hives. I love being a logi. I never said using any kind of equipment was being a p*ssy. I just stated that cloaks are for pussies.
"Welcome my son. Welcome to the machine..."
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Aiwha Bait
Demonic Cowboys
28
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Posted - 2014.11.11 17:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Aiwha Bait wrote:Kain Spero wrote:The cloak nerf didn't actually work.
Edit: As in there is no delay between decloak and shooting. 3/10 of a second is very quick. I'm sure it's there, it's just too quick for you to notice. ;) That said, I've never run p*ssy cloaks, but I do run Amarr scout. 1. Thought the delay the supposed to be increased to 2 seconds. 2. Running Assault Lite is far easier (and poses greater balance concerns) than sneaking around with low HP. Oddly, we continue to nerf the latter in attempt to cure the former. Also, while you're braving frontlines and stepping on toes of Assaults and Logis alike, those "cowards" who cloak are putting to use their racial bonus.
I believe I have the right to "step on the toes of Assaults and Logis" since I frequently run both classes. I fail to see how I'm stepping on their toes. And they're only putting to use their suit bonuses, not their racial bonuses. Those are two totally different things.
"Welcome my son. Welcome to the machine..."
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
134
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Posted - 2014.11.11 17:58:00 -
[20] - Quote
Aiwha Bait wrote:Mejt0 wrote:Aiwha Bait wrote:Kain Spero wrote:The cloak nerf didn't actually work.
Edit: As in there is no delay between decloak and shooting. 3/10 of a second is very quick. I'm sure it's there, it's just too quick for you to notice. ;) That said, I've never run p*ssy cloaks, but I do run Amarr scout. It's not about delay but range decrease. Also saying that cloaks are for pussies is like saying you are p*ssy cus you are using eqiupment. No, that's not the same thing at all. Using cloaks to turn invisible and shoot somebody in the back, and then cloaking back up, for the sake of running away, is what makes it a p*ssy piece of equipment and makes a p*ssy player. I'm all about using equipment. I love it. I love my ammo and rep hives. I love being a logi. I never said using any kind of equipment was being a p*ssy. I just stated that cloaks are for pussies.
This post strikes me as both profane and sexist. My sensibilities are deeply offended.
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Aiwha Bait
Demonic Cowboys
28
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Posted - 2014.11.11 18:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Aiwha Bait wrote:Mejt0 wrote:Aiwha Bait wrote:Kain Spero wrote:The cloak nerf didn't actually work.
Edit: As in there is no delay between decloak and shooting. 3/10 of a second is very quick. I'm sure it's there, it's just too quick for you to notice. ;) That said, I've never run p*ssy cloaks, but I do run Amarr scout. It's not about delay but range decrease. Also saying that cloaks are for pussies is like saying you are p*ssy cus you are using eqiupment. No, that's not the same thing at all. Using cloaks to turn invisible and shoot somebody in the back, and then cloaking back up, for the sake of running away, is what makes it a p*ssy piece of equipment and makes a p*ssy player. I'm all about using equipment. I love it. I love my ammo and rep hives. I love being a logi. I never said using any kind of equipment was being a p*ssy. I just stated that cloaks are for pussies. Even if you weren't plainly wrong, this post would still be both profane and sexist. My sensibilities are offended. Consider yourself Magnus'd.
This is sexist how...?
"Welcome my son. Welcome to the machine..."
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manboar thunder fist
xTHExKKKx
242
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Posted - 2014.11.11 18:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Scouts aren't more tanked due to cloak nerf. It's because of heavy spam, need to be able to survive more than a second against an hmg, currently my speed scout feels like a sniper rifle kill when I die to heavy. blap
NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES
nerf life
Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
138
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Posted - 2014.11.11 18:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
@ Aiwha Bait
I take it back. I sincerely feel guilty for reporting you. Even if I had gotten the Magnus points, I don't think I'd have felt right about it. If by some chance you do get moderated, please point out in your appeal that I retracted my complaint.
PS: This doesn't mean you're any less wrong. |
Aiwha Bait
Demonic Cowboys
28
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Posted - 2014.11.11 19:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:@ Aiwha Bait
I take it back. I sincerely feel guilty for reporting you. Even if I had gotten the Magnus points, I don't think I'd have felt right about it. If by some chance you do get moderated, please point out in your appeal that I retracted my complaint.
PS: This doesn't mean you're any less wrong.
Thanks? Haha. I still fail to see what you found sexist about my post though. Would you care to explain?
By wrong, I assume you mean about cloaks & scouts? :P To each their own. xD
"Welcome my son. Welcome to the machine..."
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Petra 222 SoM
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
10
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Posted - 2014.11.11 20:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
First, if you said scouts are not running damps, then just use scanners. (why does this seem obvious) They are even shared with the whole team now.
I often run assaults suits now to "slay" but I have made a couple scout fits a while ago with more Hp too. I'll tell you why IMO and it has little to do with the cloak nerf.
The biggest reason for me is all the assault suits running now. Second is heavy spam. Since their buff assaults can have good mobility and high tank/regen giving them much more time to react to my flanks/positioning. On top of that the damage they were able to put out at range beyond my ewar scans.
Second was heavy spam. The forums like to cry about scouts but PC and many pub matches are dominated by the sentinel.
If you haven't noticed, many of the best slayers in the game have been using assaults again for some time now and some are just coming around to it.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
104
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Posted - 2014.11.12 00:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:[Suggestion Updated]
I agree with you. We can't have mercs winning frontal assaults vs HMG heavies simply by orbiting them. I concede, but we should still try to find a way to address the "insta-spin-and-win" maneuver; it plays a major part in why Scouts HP tank.
Perhaps a back stab multiplier would prove a better solution.
Well, I still somewhat disagree with that, but it comes down to the fact that the HMG shouldn't be a CQC dominance weapon. The Burst is an excellent door-kicker's gun, and I'd say it's balanced perfectly right now; it's almost impossible to engage more than two people back to back without overheating it, and it chugs ammo at an insane rate- which makes it untenable to for prolonged, close-quarters defensive engagements.
The proposal Breakin put forth in his Sentinel Battle Role post was excellent, and IMO is the best solution- it really revitalizes the heavy role and I think it might even solve both scout and heavy spam- heavies aren't rampant console humpers, so scouts aren't needed to go in and shotgun them in the back. Assaults gain greater utility, and so do Commandos.
If either of the two heavy suits is supposed to be close-quarters point defense, it should have always been the Commando, IMO. A Sentinel's weaknesses are almost entirely mitigated by being shoehorned into the CQB point defense role, while putting them on exterior overwatch is logically consistent (it's a freakin Heavy Machine Gun, why is it so bad for it to have range?!) and the non-Burst HMG turnspeed penalties keep a heavy unable to effectively track a close-range strafing opponent with the HMG.
And everyone knows that sidearms still lose to light weapons 80%+ of the time, so switching to a pistol isn't going to help a whole lot.
It also means that scouts can potentially sneak up easier on heavies, and scouts are potentially more valuable for scouting exterior points to locate an HMG heavy that is guarding it, preventing people from approaching. Since, you know, it's hard to do point defense if you can't actually keep people away from the point.
There is also the slight issue of how the backstab multiplier would work- is it a general "heavies take more damage from behind" or do only certain weapons get this bonus? Do splash damage weapons get this benefit? Or is it only scout suits that get a backstab bonus?
I think it opens up potentially more problems and variables to have a backstab bonus on heavies than to simply change the HMG's role- given that sentinels are defined by heavy weapon deployment, I would argue that changing HMG role is effectively the same as changing sentinel role.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
139
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Posted - 2014.11.12 01:07:00 -
[27] - Quote
Roger dodger. Fingering the problem is a 'bit easier than fingering the solution.
Another option may be to wildly increase dispersion while hipfiring (i.e. the old rail rifle nerf). This way a Heavy can aim-down-sights and decimate targets in front of him, but would be properly screwed when properly flanked. |
Blueprint For Murder
Immortal Guides
255
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Posted - 2014.11.12 01:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
He obviously only has scrub scout influence considering the changes have little to no effect on them and look at the gk scout bpo suit they will never need to by another suit. The change he made to the RR were completely ineffectual, the red line changes, the ads and scrR revert. I just wish the devs played the game a little bit more so they could see how fail they are. Normally in games imbalance comes from injection of new mechanics but there seems to be little to no effort for balance because I refuse to believe they are this incompetent.
The Impossible Dream and Wizard Talk
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xavier zor
G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance
206
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Posted - 2014.11.12 01:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Scouts are even more tanked/without dampeners. Kinda annoying when it comes to scout v scout battle.
me with 453 shield, dampened with a cloak
Highest plasma cannon kill: 132 metres
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iris boss
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2014.11.12 02:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
I didn't even read the whole thread, I know what it is about as always. I just want to share my point with you and whoever want join this thread.
First of all, not all scouts are shield or armor base, i know that because of them we all pay the price. I'm an eWar scout, i run x2 proto range amplifiers and x4 advanced precision enhancer. I like to help the squad and once in a while kill some if it's in my capabilities. But now that they nerf the cloak eWar is bullshit because we can't hide near the enemy team without being seen (as i see it, that is the finality of the cloak for an ewar scout, and thats why only scouts can wear it properly), you can hide without the cloak in some maps, but more early than later will be seen by someone. As eWar scout there is no point in using it anymore because of the range nerf, and they f*ck me and everyone who went caldari scout for that bonus as an eWar scout.
I was thinking that instead of nerfing cloak, they might nerf weapon, and leave it with only two sidearms, there is still usability to an scout, but will be used more as an ewar scout than an assault scout. Scouts will be able to kill with nova knives and or dual smg, or whatever else but the point is no to leave them useless instead fit them as eWar. |
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