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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
103
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Posted - 2014.11.11 14:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:It isn't "role hating" to say that heavies are afforded too great an opportunity to emerge victorious from flank attacks.
When we lifted the rotation cap, we lifted the Heavies vulnerability to attacks from behind. An HMG Heavy should decimate anything in front of him, but he should panic when successfully flanked. To quote Breakin' Stuff, like a turtle on its back.
FYI: Increasing your input sensitivity increases your rotation speed. A 1,500HP Sentinel rotates as quickly a 300HP Scout. If you still feel you're turning too slowly, perhaps try a KB/M. From what I've been told, these permit the fastest and tightest pirouettes (though I've not tested).
Except that you're taking that out of context. He was explicitly saying that in reference to it being a horrible terrible mechanic. If the HMG heavy is supposed to be CQB dominance, then it can't have a turnspeed limit, otherwise everything will simply orbit them and shoot them in the side of the head.
The only difference from the Chrome era would be that heavies will just take longer to helplessly die to people doing that.
With that said, Breakin also has an excellent thread on evicting HMG heavies from CQB and making them long-range fire support instead. Check it out here.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
104
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Posted - 2014.11.12 00:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:[Suggestion Updated]
I agree with you. We can't have mercs winning frontal assaults vs HMG heavies simply by orbiting them. I concede, but we should still try to find a way to address the "insta-spin-and-win" maneuver; it plays a major part in why Scouts HP tank.
Perhaps a back stab multiplier would prove a better solution.
Well, I still somewhat disagree with that, but it comes down to the fact that the HMG shouldn't be a CQC dominance weapon. The Burst is an excellent door-kicker's gun, and I'd say it's balanced perfectly right now; it's almost impossible to engage more than two people back to back without overheating it, and it chugs ammo at an insane rate- which makes it untenable to for prolonged, close-quarters defensive engagements.
The proposal Breakin put forth in his Sentinel Battle Role post was excellent, and IMO is the best solution- it really revitalizes the heavy role and I think it might even solve both scout and heavy spam- heavies aren't rampant console humpers, so scouts aren't needed to go in and shotgun them in the back. Assaults gain greater utility, and so do Commandos.
If either of the two heavy suits is supposed to be close-quarters point defense, it should have always been the Commando, IMO. A Sentinel's weaknesses are almost entirely mitigated by being shoehorned into the CQB point defense role, while putting them on exterior overwatch is logically consistent (it's a freakin Heavy Machine Gun, why is it so bad for it to have range?!) and the non-Burst HMG turnspeed penalties keep a heavy unable to effectively track a close-range strafing opponent with the HMG.
And everyone knows that sidearms still lose to light weapons 80%+ of the time, so switching to a pistol isn't going to help a whole lot.
It also means that scouts can potentially sneak up easier on heavies, and scouts are potentially more valuable for scouting exterior points to locate an HMG heavy that is guarding it, preventing people from approaching. Since, you know, it's hard to do point defense if you can't actually keep people away from the point.
There is also the slight issue of how the backstab multiplier would work- is it a general "heavies take more damage from behind" or do only certain weapons get this bonus? Do splash damage weapons get this benefit? Or is it only scout suits that get a backstab bonus?
I think it opens up potentially more problems and variables to have a backstab bonus on heavies than to simply change the HMG's role- given that sentinels are defined by heavy weapon deployment, I would argue that changing HMG role is effectively the same as changing sentinel role.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
105
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Posted - 2014.11.12 06:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Roger dodger. Fingering the problem is a 'bit easier than fingering the solution.
The "can't kill more than X targets w/out overheat" argument is valid, but it doesn't have any bearing on Scouts needing HP tank to have decent odds of a successful assassination.
You misunderstand, I don't me that a Burst HMG user can't kill more than two or three people in a row without overheating, I mean that a Burst HMG user can't shoot at really more than one person and not overheat. As in, a Burst HMG user can very easily overheat before even killing a single enemy.
However, I really think that just yanking regular/assault HMG toting heavies out of CQC, leaving Burst HMG users as the designated door-kicker "Lucy I'm HOME!" guy who charges into the enemy point first, and then moves on to kicking down the next "door", is a much better solution.
Scout players will no longer worry about whether or not they can kill a heavy before said heavy turns around, since they will be fighting assaults for point control- unless said scout is defending and a Burst HMG toting heavy comes and kicks down the door, so to speak.
Breakin's proposal also has the advantage of taking the Gallente Assault as a CQB platform and actually making it work, since the HMG heavy will no longer overshadow it entirely.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:If we can't fix "insta-spin-and-win" by adjusting rotation speed, another option may be to wildly increase dispersion while hipfiring (i.e. the old rail rifle nerf). This way a Heavy can aim-down-sights to mow down whatever's in front of him, but would be properly screwed if/when caught offguard from behind by a knifer or shotgunner.
The main issue with this is that HMG dispersion at close range is really not that good anyways; making it even worse will basically turn it into "stand five feet from wall, put ten-foot wide shot pattern on wall". The current RR nerf... which is unfortunately affecting the ARR pretty roughly... is actually a recoil penalty. When firing the regular RR from the hip, after about 10-12 rounds, the recoil becomes literally uncontrollable.
I don't think that that would work for the HMG either, TBH. It really is the case that the best fix for heavy/HMG balance issues is just to make the HMG a long-range weapon that is unsuited to close engagement, with the Burst HMG functioning as sort of a giant shotgun that's good for breaching enemy-held points and short-range 1v1s but an incredibly subpar choice for sustained or long-range engagement.
I can also say that whenever I run my Amarr Sentinel suits, I very rarely have the opportunity to kill a scout that comes up behind me. What really gets my goat these days though is the idiot scouts who thinks that they have every right to charge straight at me and win, when I can see them from 30 meters away. This is, in my experiencing, something that seems to be happening more often too. A scout with a shotgun or knives, who starts at least twenty or thirty meters away from me, and in my sight, should not win that engagement.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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