DUST Search - A change that will radically improve Dust tactical gameplay

KingBabar wrote:

For me its always been game mechanics and fun over lore and realism, any day, any game. I don't really care how one would justify it but I'm pretty confident that a "reasonable" explanation can be thought out.

I simply want a height limit to drop uplinks. About 2 stories or so higher than the adjacent ground. The rooftop/tower camping mentality is a virus that this game sorely need to lose.

Ambush: Flies up on tower or climbs up on rooftop and drop links. The game slows down to a crawl, its very boring for the guys on the ground having to either just get out of reach, or climb a ladder which is camped from the top. Its also extremely boring for the few guys who prefer a short range face to face fight. What happens when someone is brave enough to jump down? They get insta dropped by the 10 enemies waiting below.

Domination: Much the same situation as Ambush, only slightly worse. The first team with the good DS squad will normally sit up there raining down death and boredom to both teams. very often in both Ambush and Domination, its the roofcamping team that loses, at least that's my personal experience.

Skirmish: Fly around the map at the start of game and place an uplink or two close to but high up from all the objectives and you're more or less guaranteed a win as long as your bluedots at least tries to hack stuff. In this game mode I don't have an especially good argument against it, cause in skirmish this can be countered by flying around dropping flux nades.

In Dom and Bush you can easily get into situations where its impossible to get them of the roof short of getting an OB, there will be multiple forge fatties waiting to shoot anything out of the skies long before you can fly up there.

Consequences for gameplay: Bare with me on this one. Try to imagine what it will mean for the game to not allow uplinks in high places.

1. Deployment of uplinks would be much more tactical, rather than the usual "put them on top". Ideally, uplinks should scale from militia to proto by getting less and less DB, and possible spawn time/numbers too. Imagine a 15 DB proto uplink that can only be detected by either a Gal super scanner or not least by actually looking at it. This should scale downwards and we'd have a sort of Equipment-Ewar going on. This will furthermore reward situational awareness and people would need to interpret enemy movement. Where can that link be?

2. Now camping on top of something would have a risk/reward factor, well, sort off. If you do set up with multiple hives, a dude with a scanner, a dude with a forge, a sniper and whatnot. If someone either falls down or get countersniped, it's gonna be a beach to get back up there again. He'd have to call in a new DS and so on.

3. Will this change average player mentality? "Nah, its such a hassle flying/climbing up there I'd rather actually push the point and go for the win instead of pathetically trying to pad my KDR..."

I sure can dream....

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 2640	Posted - 2014.11.05 15:05:00 - [1] - Quote For me its always been game mechanics and fun over lore and realism, any day, any game. I don't really care how one would justify it but I'm pretty confident that a "reasonable" explanation can be thought out. I simply want a height limit to drop uplinks. About 2 stories or so higher than the adjacent ground. The rooftop/tower camping mentality is a virus that this game sorely need to lose. Ambush: Flies up on tower or climbs up on rooftop and drop links. The game slows down to a crawl, its very boring for the guys on the ground having to either just get out of reach, or climb a ladder which is camped from the top. Its also extremely boring for the few guys who prefer a short range face to face fight. What happens when someone is brave enough to jump down? They get insta dropped by the 10 enemies waiting below. Domination: Much the same situation as Ambush, only slightly worse. The first team with the good DS squad will normally sit up there raining down death and boredom to both teams. very often in both Ambush and Domination, its the roofcamping team that loses, at least that's my personal experience. Skirmish: Fly around the map at the start of game and place an uplink or two close to but high up from all the objectives and you're more or less guaranteed a win as long as your bluedots at least tries to hack stuff. In this game mode I don't have an especially good argument against it, cause in skirmish this can be countered by flying around dropping flux nades. In Dom and Bush you can easily get into situations where its impossible to get them of the roof short of getting an OB, there will be multiple forge fatties waiting to shoot anything out of the skies long before you can fly up there. Consequences for gameplay: Bare with me on this one. Try to imagine what it will mean for the game to not allow uplinks in high places. 1. Deployment of uplinks would be much more tactical, rather than the usual "put them on top". Ideally, uplinks should scale from militia to proto by getting less and less DB, and possible spawn time/numbers too. Imagine a 15 DB proto uplink that can only be detected by either a Gal super scanner or not least by actually looking at it. This should scale downwards and we'd have a sort of Equipment-Ewar going on. This will furthermore reward situational awareness and people would need to interpret enemy movement. Where can that link be? 2. Now camping on top of something would have a risk/reward factor, well, sort off. If you do set up with multiple hives, a dude with a scanner, a dude with a forge, a sniper and whatnot. If someone either falls down or get countersniped, it's gonna be a beach to get back up there again. He'd have to call in a new DS and so on. 3. Will this change average player mentality? "Nah, its such a hassle flying/climbing up there I'd rather actually push the point and go for the win instead of pathetically trying to pad my KDR..." I sure can dream.... FU and FU Dust community, you're mostly a bunch of moronic carebear crybabies. Get good.
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4951	Posted - 2014.11.05 15:17:00 - [2] - Quote The rule should be, if you can't get up there with a ladder or stairs then you shouldn't be able to put hominid on it. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14855	Posted - 2014.11.05 15:52:00 - [3] - Quote I don't like the idea of artificially limiting players, but rooftop campers are even worse than redline campers, so I'm inclined to agree. Ten Year Plan (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4329	Posted - 2014.11.05 16:10:00 - [4] - Quote The problem is detailed well and I can confirm the veracity of it. That said I'm not convinced this is the solution. I am convinced a solution should help to solve the problem. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4821	Posted - 2014.11.05 16:17:00 - [5] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The problem is detailed well and I can confirm the veracity of it. That said I'm not convinced this is the solution. I am convinced a solution should help to solve the problem. How about a Flux Mass Driver where the range depends on how long you hold the trigger? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2475	Posted - 2014.11.05 16:21:00 - [6] - Quote Have an ADS friend? Or even just a regular dropship and fly someone up there. The biggest problem is glitching links in places that they can't be destroyed except by fluxes. I agree that more ladders would be a nice fix for some buildings. Maybe other ideas I haven't heard yet as well. But to be honest, while it is annoying, links up high do not mean guaranteed victory. It could mean just jumping into a death pit. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 14861	Posted - 2014.11.05 16:23:00 - [7] - Quote He mentioned drop ships, a good squad won't let you get close because forge guns and swarms. You'll be taking fire long before you get close enough to clear the roof. Ten Year Plan (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+
LUGMOS YELLOW JESUS EXP FORCE 765	Posted - 2014.11.05 16:33:00 - [8] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: The problem is detailed well and I can confirm the veracity of it. That said I'm not convinced this is the solution. I am convinced a solution should help to solve the problem. How about a Flux Mass Driver where the range depends on how long you hold the trigger? Yeah, and call it the motherfluxer. Pair that with some massholers or combat rifles and there will be mass destruction. Quafe A question doesn't always have an answer, but a problem does, So what is DUST? A problem or a question?
Lloyd Orfay SHAKING BABIES FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 167	Posted - 2014.11.05 17:01:00 - [9] - Quote KingBabar wrote: For me its always been game mechanics and fun over lore and realism, any day, any game. I don't really care how one would justify it but I'm pretty confident that a "reasonable" explanation can be thought out. I simply want a height limit to drop uplinks. About 2 stories or so higher than the adjacent ground. The rooftop/tower camping mentality is a virus that this game sorely need to lose. Ambush: Flies up on tower or climbs up on rooftop and drop links. The game slows down to a crawl, its very boring for the guys on the ground having to either just get out of reach, or climb a ladder which is camped from the top. Its also extremely boring for the few guys who prefer a short range face to face fight. What happens when someone is brave enough to jump down? They get insta dropped by the 10 enemies waiting below. Domination: Much the same situation as Ambush, only slightly worse. The first team with the good DS squad will normally sit up there raining down death and boredom to both teams. very often in both Ambush and Domination, its the roofcamping team that loses, at least that's my personal experience. Skirmish: Fly around the map at the start of game and place an uplink or two close to but high up from all the objectives and you're more or less guaranteed a win as long as your bluedots at least tries to hack stuff. In this game mode I don't have an especially good argument against it, cause in skirmish this can be countered by flying around dropping flux nades. In Dom and Bush you can easily get into situations where its impossible to get them of the roof short of getting an OB, there will be multiple forge fatties waiting to shoot anything out of the skies long before you can fly up there. Consequences for gameplay: Bare with me on this one. Try to imagine what it will mean for the game to not allow uplinks in high places. 1. Deployment of uplinks would be much more tactical, rather than the usual "put them on top". Ideally, uplinks should scale from militia to proto by getting less and less DB, and possible spawn time/numbers too. Imagine a 15 DB proto uplink that can only be detected by either a Gal super scanner or not least by actually looking at it. This should scale downwards and we'd have a sort of Equipment-Ewar going on. This will furthermore reward situational awareness and people would need to interpret enemy movement. Where can that link be? 2. Now camping on top of something would have a risk/reward factor, well, sort off. If you do set up with multiple hives, a dude with a scanner, a dude with a forge, a sniper and whatnot. If someone either falls down or get countersniped, it's gonna be a beach to get back up there again. He'd have to call in a new DS and so on. 3. Will this change average player mentality? "Nah, its such a hassle flying/climbing up there I'd rather actually push the point and go for the win instead of pathetically trying to pad my KDR..." I sure can dream.... If this idea was coupled with anti uplink spam protocols then I will have a tactical game balancing orgasm.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4437	Posted - 2014.11.05 17:16:00 - [10] - Quote You'll be glad to know, Babar, that Rattati is working on lower scan profiles for equipment. Also, I think some of his proposals for different orbital types might interest you. Definitely take a look at that thread. It's a nicer solution than just straight up nerfing equipment (again) if you ask me. IMO, more variety and more solutions to battlefield situations is always preferable to nerfing what little we already have. (Plus, unfortunately, what is probably the best solution, making limits on how close uplinks can be placed together, is apparently not technically feasible at the moment. ) Also, like you mentioned the roof camping scrub team very often loses, particularly in a lot of the Dom city maps, so... working as intended I guess, lame tactics don't win battles. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 2645	Posted - 2014.11.05 17:18:00 - [11] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The problem is detailed well and I can confirm the veracity of it. That said I'm not convinced this is the solution. I am convinced a solution should help to solve the problem. Thanks for dropping by princess, long time no see. My sollution does solve the problem, though be it in a somewhat un-elegant way, so I dun't quite get what you mean here princess. That being said, I am not convinced this is the sollution either. I do however hope this is a topic the CPM takes seriously and try their best to find a sollution to. A great reduction to rooftop camping would go a long way to make this game more fun IMO. Maybe play around with the link - E-war idea? Thats a keeper... FU and FU Dust community, you're mostly a bunch of moronic carebear crybabies. Get good.
doc lowroar THE 300 SPARTANS 22	Posted - 2014.11.05 17:56:00 - [12] - Quote I thought you were gonna say banana peels. "Wherever you go, there you are" -BB
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 881	Posted - 2014.11.05 18:17:00 - [13] - Quote Basically what Babar is saying is that it's too high if he can't throw a grenade at it..
CharacterNameWasTaken G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 195	Posted - 2014.11.05 18:23:00 - [14] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: The rule should be, if you can't get up there with a ladder or stairs then you shouldn't be able to put uplinks on it If you think that you should be able to put uplinks on something not accessible this way, then get CCP to add more ladders. exatly we need more ladders and we need ro be able to press sprint and climb faster.
SagaB Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 34	Posted - 2014.11.05 18:30:00 - [15] - Quote CharacterNameWasTaken wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: The rule should be, if you can't get up there with a ladder or stairs then you shouldn't be able to put uplinks on it If you think that you should be able to put uplinks on something not accessible this way, then get CCP to add more ladders. exatly we need more ladders and we need ro be able to press sprint and climb faster. Mile high ladders sound like a good way to spend in a match.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4825	Posted - 2014.11.05 18:32:00 - [16] - Quote My solution to rooftop uplinks, in those situations when they become a real problem, usually involves sacrificing a Dropship due to I, as the pilot, jumping out of said dropship for rapid insertion onto said rooftop. Last time I did this my flaming Dropship took out one of the campers for me. I know how to make a spectacular entrance! This can get expensive however, particularly if you miss the first time and have to try again... Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2010	Posted - 2014.11.05 18:33:00 - [17] - Quote One sure way to lose a match is to ensure your team of do-nothing blueberries have spawns on high places.... ...where they can be sure of staying far away from the action and doing little to nothing productive to help the team.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2319	Posted - 2014.11.05 18:38:00 - [18] - Quote I thought you had left? No matter. While I agree that excessive rooftop uplink spam is an annoyance, I dont think artificially limiting where uplinks can be placed is a good idea. What next? Someone argues that they can only be 1 story up........now they have to be on the ground level only. There are legitimate reasons for having a high level uplink, not least for sniper overwatch, swarms / forgers. At the end of the day if you dont like it, do something about it. Get a dropship and clear them off. Now if it is your team doing this, counter them with your own uplinks on the ground. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
LAVALLOIS Nash QcGOLD 270	Posted - 2014.11.05 19:05:00 - [19] - Quote KingBabar wrote: For me its always been game mechanics and fun over lore and realism, any day, any game. I don't really care how one would justify it but I'm pretty confident that a "reasonable" explanation can be thought out. . I think you only see the game from your own perspective so for you it seems detrimental. But ok, lets say we did it your way. So now, instead of having guaranteed place to be able to deploy at, all uplinks are accessible to any of the random red or marauding scouts that roam around. Unlike a rooftop unlink, which requires effort and a strategy, now any bare minimum effort player can put on a cloak and go and break them all. So what happens next? Well with all our repawn points destroyed while we were fighting, we are forced to spawn near or in our redline. Now the fight has shifted for the worst. While we fight just to have the privilege of deploying outside our redline, the clock is ticking on the objective. At this point, if the other team gives us too much of a fight...the match is over. The bogged down team will switch to snipers and AFK militia fits, a few people might burn 10 mins of so climbing through the mountains to place some uplinks on the extreme flank. But for all intents and purposes, its done. The objective wont be challenged. So instead of being bored on the ground under a roof full of people trying to stay in the game, youll be bored waiting outside a redline full of AFKers. But you might get a few more kills per game under this system, so youll be happy. You have to understand that when you alter the system, you alter the people working in it. Why would I risk a expensive suit and proto uplinks just to go and place a uplink beside the 1 box in the middle of the giant wide open field each map is, just so it can yeild 75WP before someone with a milita pistol destroys it? Not worth it. I can make more and risk less redline camping or proxy mine spamming. People wouldnt specialize in uplinks anymore, there would be much less spawn points, and alot more new players would say **** it if they had to run from the MCC to the objective each death.
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 881	Posted - 2014.11.05 19:08:00 - [20] - Quote I don't mind a bit of 3 dimensional gameplay, but there are certain 'groups' that just play every... game... the same.... it gets a bit stale after the 3rd game in a row, but when you get stuck either on their side or against them for a whole night sound of bullet passing through my temple Its almost like a permanent spam cooldown timer is required, so that you can't do x action more than x times in x minutes ie: if you call in 5 madrugars in 1 game then no more madrugars for you for 90 minutes

DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 5844	Posted - 2014.11.05 19:19:00 - [21] - Quote We just need different rounds for the MD and Flaylock. Flux rounds anyone? Also electro magnetic barrages sound promising. I think we should expand the game: not limit it. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
LAVALLOIS Nash QcGOLD 270	Posted - 2014.11.05 19:38:00 - [22] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: We just need different rounds for the MD and Flaylock. Flux rounds anyone? Also electro magnetic barrages sound promising. I think we should expand the game: not limit it. Or for the mass driver, plasma cannon, forge gun, ect. I agree completely. If people have trouble defeating my tactics, give them more tools suited for the job. Thats warfare, you counter instead of using administrative privileges to edit and limit your enemies arsenal.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4343	Posted - 2014.11.05 19:47:00 - [23] - Quote KingBabar wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: The problem is detailed well and I can confirm the veracity of it. That said I'm not convinced this is the solution. I am convinced a solution should help to solve the problem. Thanks for dropping by princess, long time no see. My sollution does solve the problem, though be it in a somewhat un-elegant way, so I dun't quite get what you mean here princess. That being said, I am not convinced this is the sollution either. I do however hope this is a topic the CPM takes seriously and try their best to find a sollution to. A great reduction to rooftop camping would go a long way to make this game more fun IMO. Maybe play around with the link - E-war idea? Thats a keeper... We really just need to detail the CPM's deployable's proposal. It takes a shot at rooftop camping, though I don't think it's the silver bullet in an of itself. I don't disagree that solves the problem. I just don't think that's the solution (that i would choose) But if a better solution can't be conceived this would work. B3RT > PFBHz > TEAM > MHPD > IMPS > FA They call me ~Princess Zatata~ Skype: Zatara.Rought Twitter: @ZataraRought
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 881	Posted - 2014.11.05 20:02:00 - [24] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: We just need different rounds for the MD and Flaylock. Flux rounds anyone? Also electro magnetic barrages sound promising. I think we should expand the game: not limit it. Whilst I agree 'we should expand the game' its possibly a case of 'we can't expand it' or 'that we can't expand it in that way' its the difference between patches and hotfixes
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14221	Posted - 2014.11.05 20:04:00 - [25] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I don't like the idea of artificially limiting players, but rooftop campers are even worse than redline campers, so I'm inclined to agree. There's artificial limits and there's patching out bad mechanics. Uplink Spam Jihad Jeeps Etc... GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥ GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥ Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 707	Posted - 2014.11.05 20:35:00 - [26] - Quote +1 The vertical aspects of maps adds more frustration than fun. We need more carnage on the ground!
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7388	Posted - 2014.11.05 21:05:00 - [27] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: The problem is detailed well and I can confirm the veracity of it. That said I'm not convinced this is the solution. I am convinced a solution should help to solve the problem. How about a Flux Mass Driver where the range depends on how long you hold the trigger? Eh, there are still spots where this wouldn't work. Need a better solution. Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in! FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
Mobius Wyvern Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 5388	Posted - 2014.11.05 21:08:00 - [28] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: The problem is detailed well and I can confirm the veracity of it. That said I'm not convinced this is the solution. I am convinced a solution should help to solve the problem. Wow, Zatara, you could run for President of the United States with posts like that. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1132	Posted - 2014.11.05 21:19:00 - [29] - Quote like some of my ideas are catching on. If there's no ladder it clearly wasn't untended by ccp to be a place for players to be on. Add stairs/ladders/elevators what have you to make every spot if the map equally accessible which s just basic level design. Or black out the tops of the buildings and make them redline. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Albyat Tyre Glitched Connection 56	Posted - 2014.11.05 21:30:00 - [30] - Quote I would like to see the removal of the remote explosive as being used as an offensive weapon. Too many scout scumbags run up throw r/e into a crowd and bam, three or four kills. and also a change in the sound effect of drop links/ r/es / ammo supplies would be nice. you can never tell when a friendly or scumbag scout drops something by you. too many times i have heard the chirp and thought ammo or droplink and BOOM.. f'n remote. change sound or get rid of them all togeather. To live as one shall live, I prefer killing red dots.



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