DUST Search - [Feedback] we need MOAR ladders

John Demonsbane wrote:

So, the QQ about uplinks on towers and tower campers continues unabated, and is leading to calls for nerfing uplinks again.

Personally, just like the "get rid of the redline" threads that pop up now and again, I see this as trying to solve the wrong problem. The problem is not people actually using the tools (uplinks, dropships) available in order to give their team an advantage (God forbid).

No, the problem is that you can't do anything about it if you don't have a good dropship pilot available. There should always be a second way to counter something.

Solution: moar ladders. I'd say about 30% of structures (at best) currently have ladders going to the top. This should be closer to 80% at least.

Example, there are some sockets where the objective is overlooked by a tall tower with a slanted roof leading to it. There is a ladder on the opposite side. Particularly in Domination, this can lead to some pretty epic battles for control of the tower with dropships, people on the ladder, people shooting up, tanks killing the dropships, snipers trying to clear it from another tower, etc. There are counters with other counters to those counters, etc.

The mere presence of that ladder turns the socket from another "meh" group of buildings to roof camp to one with near endless tactical possibilities. We need more sockets like that!

This is how we make Dust more fun. Not by making existing things (like uplinks) worse, but by making other things better!

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John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4386	Posted - 2014.11.02 00:09:00 - [1] - Quote So, the QQ about uplinks on towers and tower campers continues unabated, and is leading to calls for nerfing uplinks again. Personally, just like the "get rid of the redline" threads that pop up now and again, I see this as trying to solve the wrong problem. The problem is not people actually using the tools (uplinks, dropships) available in order to give their team an advantage (God forbid). No, the problem is that you can't do anything about it if you don't have a good dropship pilot available. There should always be a second way to counter something. Solution: moar ladders. I'd say about 30% of structures (at best) currently have ladders going to the top. This should be closer to 80% at least. Example, there are some sockets where the objective is overlooked by a tall tower with a slanted roof leading to it. There is a ladder on the opposite side. Particularly in Domination, this can lead to some pretty epic battles for control of the tower with dropships, people on the ladder, people shooting up, tanks killing the dropships, snipers trying to clear it from another tower, etc. There are counters with other counters to those counters, etc. The mere presence of that ladder turns the socket from another "meh" group of buildings to roof camp to one with near endless tactical possibilities. We need more sockets like that! This is how we make Dust more fun. Not by making existing things (like uplinks) worse, but by making other things better! (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 880	Posted - 2014.11.02 01:17:00 - [2] - Quote Agreed, 100% We need at least one ladder per building, quite frankly, and more than that in general. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1064	Posted - 2014.11.02 01:23:00 - [3] - Quote ive literally said this for months going back to 2013. if theres no ladder it should be out of bounds/redline. no equipment and kills you if you stay, no landing dropships or you blowup. or if the buildings stay everyone needs to have at least 2 ladders, or staircases, or implement elevators into the game. 1 ladder just means people camp, there needs to be a flanking ladder as well for map balance. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3670	Posted - 2014.11.02 04:35:00 - [4] - Quote +1 to the use of ladders See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5168	Posted - 2014.11.02 04:55:00 - [5] - Quote You already know I agree More Ladders MOAR Ladders
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 415	Posted - 2014.11.02 05:49:00 - [6] - Quote Yes! Lack of ladders is forcing players to use vehicles with they can not use successful, mostly because there is already 'welcome' party at top of rooftops. And even if you some how manage to get on it there is 20 Uplinks and not enough time to destroy them all. Every structure that DS can land on top of it, need to have ladders. Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 2508	Posted - 2014.11.02 06:28:00 - [7] - Quote Deployable rope ladders for dropships too! > Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Baal Omniscient Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2071	Posted - 2014.11.02 10:19:00 - [8] - Quote I've always wanted this. I believe it's something many of us have been requesting for a long time. It makes no sense to have areas that belong only to whoever manages to set up an uplink and a forge gunner first. There need to be multiple avenues of approach for every position in the game, and that includes towers and all currently DS-accessible-only camping positions. Also.... I miss the extra ladder that used to be on the back side of the crows nest in Ashlands...... TL;DR: LADDERS EVERYWHERE! Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1526	Posted - 2014.11.02 10:21:00 - [9] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: So, the QQ about uplinks on towers and tower campers continues unabated, and is leading to calls for nerfing uplinks again. Personally, just like the "get rid of the redline" threads that pop up now and again, I see this as trying to solve the wrong problem. The problem is not people actually using the tools (uplinks, dropships) available in order to give their team an advantage (God forbid). No, the problem is that you can't do anything about it if you don't have a good dropship pilot available. There should always be a second way to counter something. Solution: moar ladders. I'd say about 30% of structures (at best) currently have ladders going to the top. This should be closer to 80% at least. Example, there are some sockets where the objective is overlooked by a tall tower with a slanted roof leading to it. There is a ladder on the opposite side. Particularly in Domination, this can lead to some pretty epic battles for control of the tower with dropships, people on the ladder, people shooting up, tanks killing the dropships, snipers trying to clear it from another tower, etc. There are counters with other counters to those counters, etc. The mere presence of that ladder turns the socket from another "meh" group of buildings to roof camp to one with near endless tactical possibilities. We need more sockets like that! This is how we make Dust more fun. Not by making existing things (like uplinks) worse, but by making other things better! yes to MOAR LADDERS but only if they fix the ladders where we have to jump over some invisible block at the top when we try to move forward, you know the ones i mean, they are usually on those single floor L shaped buildings [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1526	Posted - 2014.11.02 10:24:00 - [10] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Yes! Lack of ladders is forcing players to use vehicles with they can not use successful, mostly because there is already 'welcome' party at top of rooftops. And even if you some how manage to get on it there is 20 Uplinks and not enough time to destroy them all. Every structure that DS can land on top of it, need to have ladders. exactly.. there is risk to useing ladders but lets you sneek up on campers, unlike DS where its like a quafe heavy bunnyhopping out in the open.. it gonna get shot the F up.. but also on the part of roof campers.. lower OB cost to 3750 or 4000 that way its a little easier to get and to use to Route those pesky roof camping heavys with their instablap forgeguns or sentinel snipers on roofs [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4404	Posted - 2014.11.02 22:07:00 - [11] - Quote B U M P (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Kevall Longstride Dust University Ivy League 1949	Posted - 2014.11.02 22:41:00 - [12] - Quote Ladders are popular. They also have a performance hit (which is why we lost a lot of them about 3 or patches ago). Hopefully the optimisation in 1.9 will help. CPM 1 member CEO of DUST University Vist dustcpm.com
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 197	Posted - 2014.11.02 22:44:00 - [13] - Quote Ladders reduce the reason for ads usage while allowing people to get higher without even needing to bother using dropships, reducing their usage. Ladders can also be camped easily, resulting in no change to the problem NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4404	Posted - 2014.11.02 22:52:00 - [14] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: Ladders reduce the reason for ads usage while allowing people to get higher without even needing to bother using dropships, reducing their usage. Ladders can also be camped easily, resulting in no change to the problem So, what you are saying is they don't work and won't fix the problem AND they also work so well that you don't need anything else? Which is it? If the ladders are inneffecitve and get camped so easily, how then do you no longer need dropships? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 197	Posted - 2014.11.02 23:03:00 - [15] - Quote They are not going to work because people will be able to get up there without dropships, and then how does it solve roof camping? If you pay attention I'm sure you'll notice the variation in dropship types I have mentioned. Ads is needed to clear roof, ds is needed to get up there. Adding ladders will result in fall in ds use which will cause a drop in ads/av/tank warpoint earning from killing these vehicles. More ladders mean ads usage is in higher demand, but with ads nerf this is not viable, and if ladders can be camped then high ground superiority is even more prevalent than before. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4405	Posted - 2014.11.02 23:50:00 - [16] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: They are not going to work because people will be able to get up there without dropships, and then how does it solve roof camping? If you pay attention I'm sure you'll notice the variation in dropship types I have mentioned. Ads is needed to clear roof, ds is needed to get up there. Adding ladders will result in fall in ds use which will cause a drop in ads/av/tank warpoint earning from killing these vehicles. More ladders mean ads usage is in higher demand, but with ads nerf this is not viable, and if ladders can be camped then high ground superiority is even more prevalent than before. The problem isn't roof camping. The problem is that a dropship (either type.. Yes I noticed the difference, it doesn't matter) is the only way to get most of these places, so whoever gets there first has a big advantage. This gives a second counter to this particular tactic. This is the solution we are looking for, if you would pay attention. - some of those towers are really high and some will still not have ladders so DS be fine as they will remain the fastest way to get there. - DS will be getting WP for mCRUs so chill out about the number of DS you will see. Regardless, the fact that other people won't be able to get WP by farming them for kills is not a big problem in my book. - Complain about ADS nerfs somewhere else (The godfather of tactical logistics)
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14063	Posted - 2014.11.02 23:55:00 - [17] - Quote Eh I'm more of an elevator kind of guy. Ladders are too easy to exploit. GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥ GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥ Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
TheEnd762 Sver true blood Public.Disorder. 645	Posted - 2014.11.03 00:10:00 - [18] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Eh I'm more of an elevator kind of guy. Ladders are too easy to exploit. You're danm right. Put ladders up to my perch, and I guarantee there will be an RE there every time.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2253	Posted - 2014.11.03 02:28:00 - [19] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Ladders are popular. They also have a performance hit (which is why we lost a lot of them about 3 or patches ago). Hopefully the optimisation in 1.9 will help. How the hell are ladders such a performance hit that they need to be taken out of a game? That boggles my mind as a layman. That being said, ladders, ramps or what ever - we desperately need different ways to access tall towers and rooftops. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Boot Booter Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 1018	Posted - 2014.11.03 03:36:00 - [20] - Quote I would welcome both more ladders and an uplink nerf. Anything to get more boots actually on the ground.

VikingKong iBUN T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 156	Posted - 2014.11.03 06:01:00 - [21] - Quote There would just be a HMG or shotgun camped at the top of every ladder, it won't stop whole teams from camping on top of a building.
Lloyd Orfay SHAKING BABIES FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 156	Posted - 2014.11.03 06:33:00 - [22] - Quote No. Roof camping is roof camping, increasing people's ability to get high up on buildings just to snipe people and dropships out of the air isn't a good idea. If all roof camping was eliminated there wouldn't be this issue in the first place. The ladders are possibly the worst part of structures as players will simply be shot down from them, too. On small vacation surfing on Caldari Tanks.
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 198	Posted - 2014.11.03 15:04:00 - [23] - Quote dropships are a viable way to get up high, and adding ladders doesn't solve any problems.... Your argument here is: BOO HOO, I WANT TO GET UP HIGH AND CAMP MORE EASILY, WHY DO I HAVE TO CALL A DROPSHIP AND FLY UP? I WANT A SIMPLE LADDER SO I CAN CAMP FASTER :))))))))) no. Not only is roof camping a boring and scummy tactic seen on the road tower point map (which is hated by all), but if it's going to be done, at the very least, a vehicle should be neccessary, some sort of effort, to get up there..... Once people are up there ladders won't help you will they? you want to get headshotted while climbing up? feel free.... this is not a solution and your incessant call for ladders will just cause no change whatsoever. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 61	Posted - 2014.11.03 15:10:00 - [24] - Quote 1. Use a DS 1a. You dont even have to skill into a DS to use one 1b. They are cheap 1c. If other players use a DS to get upto the tower in the 1st place then you can too 1d. HTFU
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4409	Posted - 2014.11.03 16:46:00 - [25] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: dropships are a viable way to get up high, and adding ladders doesn't solve any problems.... Your argument here is: BOO HOO, I WANT TO GET UP HIGH AND CAMP MORE EASILY, WHY DO I HAVE TO CALL A DROPSHIP AND FLY UP? I WANT A SIMPLE LADDER SO I CAN CAMP FASTER :))))))))) no. Not only is roof camping a boring and scummy tactic seen on the road tower point map (which is hated by all), but if it's going to be done, at the very least, a vehicle should be neccessary, some sort of effort, to get up there..... Once people are up there ladders won't help you will they? you want to get headshotted while climbing up? feel free.... this is not a solution and your incessant call for ladders will just cause no change whatsoever. Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. Use a DS 1a. You dont even have to skill into a DS to use one 1b. They are cheap 1c. If other players use a DS to get upto the tower in the 1st place then you can too 1d. HTFU Seriously, read the OP, people. - I don't want to camp more easily. - I don't think putting uplinks on towers or using high ground is bad form or needs to stop (for the most part) - I don't think using DS to get to high ground is something we need to eliminate. I fly DS to get to rooftops all the time on certain maps. I'm terrible at it, but fortunately militia DS are pretty cheap. It's way faster than ladders. But that's only on certain maps, and primarily for purposes of gaining relaible access to map objectives, not to sit up there in my awesome RR sentinel suit and scrub my way to an inflated K/D. What I do want is for people to stop blaming logi's for their inability to deal with anything other than someone just coming right at them. Or trying to nerf things like DS and uplinks as the "solution" to some problem that results in them getting killed in a way they deem "unfair." I'm also getting a little bored with the people giving simultaneous opposing arguments. If you think they won't work, argue that. If you're worried that they will work so well that DS's will disappear, argue that. Don't argue both, that makes no freaking sense! (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4409	Posted - 2014.11.03 16:53:00 - [26] - Quote VikingKong iBUN wrote: There would just be a HMG or shotgun camped at the top of every ladder, it won't stop whole teams from camping on top of a building. How is that worse than now? This requires more effort than is currently needed to hold the roof. Put a FG or even just a commando with both an RR and swarms and you already deny the area to the other team pretty well. Even the counter to a tacitc should have a counter in turn, and the presence of this does nothing to invalidate the tactic or this proposal. In fact, the opposite should be true, something should not be introduced if it DIDNT have a counter. Tactic: Roof camp counter to roof camp: ADS counter to ADS: AV counter to AV: Go up the ladder counter to going up the ladder: defend the ladder ...and so on. How is having counters with more counters a bad thing, exactly? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Haerr Clone Manque 1772	Posted - 2014.11.03 17:43:00 - [27] - Quote Would prefer stairs or elevators.
Terry Webber Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 475	Posted - 2014.11.03 20:26:00 - [28] - Quote You guys should check out the new sticky CCP Rattati posted in the Feedback and Ideas Discussion forum.
Crashy Mc Boom-bewm The United Socialist Liberation Front 61	Posted - 2014.11.03 21:45:00 - [29] - Quote Guys, instead of ladders why dont we have teleporters? Like a small circle on the ground that when stepped on, will get you On the top of a building I am the master of all booty and have come to purify you of all the false booty
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 865	Posted - 2014.11.03 22:29:00 - [30] - Quote no! we do not need more ladders. we need elevators. that also plays music when in use. Clone117:MLT specialist. Translation:dont mess with me or you lose your kdr.(and isk)



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