DUST Search - Health mods should be percent based

iWanderer wrote:

Protocake JR wrote:

...

Dropsuits should have native armor repair, something along the lines of a gallente scout having 25hp/s and a caldari sentinel having 5hp/s. The rest of the dropsuits would fit in somewhere in between those two numbers depending on frame size and race. ......

This has been proposed and due to deploy on Tuesday.
Original thread is https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=178392

but since it looking kind of a gallente nerf, I have proposed the following:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2418986#post2418986:

Proposed Armor rep/s

Light Suits: ............................. Scout Suits:
Basic Cal - 0,5.....................................Cal - 1
Basic Amarr - 1................................Amarr - 2
Basic Min - 1.....................................Min - 1.5
Basic Gal - 2.................................... Gal - 3

Medium Suits:................................... Assault Suits:
Basic Cal - 1........................................ Cal - 2
Basic Amarr - 2 ...................................Amarr - 3.5
Basic Min - 1 ....................................... Min - 2
Basic Gal - 2........................................ Gal - 4

Heavy Suits: .....................................Sentinel Suits:
Basic Cal - 1 .....................................Cal - 1
Basic Amarr - 1.5 .................................Amarr - 2
Basic Min - 1 ..................................... Min - 1.5
Basic Gal 2.5 .......................................Gal - 3

Commandos: - Gal - Min - Amarr - Cal - should be 3 - 1 - 2 - 1
Logis - Same as assault or I think better, use basic medium values if to make then tougher...

Proto players are the epitome of "havng your cake after you ate it" which is why most will never develop real skill

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Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1473	Posted - 2014.10.23 06:36:00 - [1] - Quote Dropsuit base health should be balanced to better reflect the suits strength depending on frame size and race. Then certain health mods, being percent based, would be better used in a certain dropsuit than another. The same with how ewar/movement/shield regen/ modules are now. Modules like armor plates would benefit dropsuits with higher base armor better than dropsuits with low base armor. Same principle would apply to shield extenders. Dropsuits should have native armor repair, something along the lines of a gallente scout having 25hp/s and a caldari sentinel having 5hp/s. The rest of the dropsuits would fit in somewhere in between those two numbers depending on frame size and race. Then a repair mod having, lets say, a 25% increase in armor repair, would benefit the gallente scout more than the caldari sentinel. This would mitigate duel tanking and "light suits with assault health", which will provide more consistent "information at a glance", meaning, if you see a caldari assault/logi, it's going to be shield based. No more, "Oh hey I found a gal scout in the open, gunna go kill it- oh **** it has more over 600 armor, smaller hitbox, and faster strafe speed. nvm..." The reason scouts (this is not a scout hate thread) have an advantage over other suits is because they can easily overcome their only major weakness, low health, with health mods. Heavy's will never have scout strafe speed, regen, and ewar (which is flawed) because those modules are percent based. Staking these modules on a heavy and medium suit just isn't worth the loss of health. Or we could make every module give a hard numbered bonus, just like health mods are now, in order to balance out the suits, but I think it would be easier, and create less chaos if the devs made health mods percent based. Balance between frames and races will be closer.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2107	Posted - 2014.10.23 06:55:00 - [2] - Quote This has been suggested before but if I remember correctly Rattati / CCP did not like the idea. I cannot think why though I am sure there must be a reason right? "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 263	Posted - 2014.10.23 07:02:00 - [3] - Quote I really like the idea of Armor plates and shield extenders being percent based. Bump+like from me. The scout rhetoric is unneeded though. I wouldn't think about scouts in the slightest if balancing this change -- because it's so good it balances itself!! (although I don't agree with native repair. I think THAT is fine as it.)
castba Merc-0107 623	Posted - 2014.10.23 07:21:00 - [4] - Quote Native repair, no thanks. Hp mods percentage based? Yes please. Difficult to balance though. "When everything is OP, nothing is" - CCP Ratatti
Llast 326 An Arkhos 4980	Posted - 2014.10.23 07:23:00 - [5] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: This has been suggested before but if I remember correctly Rattati / CCP did not like the idea. I cannot think why though I am sure there must be a reason right? I've seen this idea before and I do like itGÇª a problem as I understand it would be the need to totally rebalance HP for all suits, and likely some other TTK adjustments. The disparity between base suit HP is very broad. Add 20% to scout and add 20% to a SentinelGÇª the gap becomes very wide even before factoring in Sent resistances. KRRROOOOOOM
Firbolg Barun Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 52	Posted - 2014.10.23 07:26:00 - [6] - Quote Yep, I completely agree that MODIFERS should MULTIPLY your current suit's statistics. Could solve many problems in this game, such as scouts being better assaults than assaults.
Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1476	Posted - 2014.10.23 07:29:00 - [7] - Quote @CommanderBolt I wonder why as well? If there is a problem with this, then I would suspect it's because of a flaw of the system/mechanic overall. Or maybe it's just a lot of work. Easier said than done. @Imp Smash Thanks for the like. The scout rhetoric was just an example. I run scouts myself, an amarr "true ewar scout" and an "assault scout". Scouts just stick out the most over all the other suits. But other suits can do this as well. Logistics caldari for example. They have quite a few low slots that allow them to get around 600 armor, which i've seen quite a few times. The point I wanted to make was that it's unfair that one specific frame size can easily overcome it's weakness with minimal sacrifice, while the other suits cannot do the same. This caused by the inconsistent bonuses modules give. Either make all modules percent based, or make all modules give static numbers. I prefer the percent based options, as I feel it enhances the frame/race meta gameplay. Although I can say that this may be considered a slot count/layout issue as well, if you choose to see it that way. Going from STD to PRO will give you more slots, more slots means more health and more opportunities to break out of your "mold" and become a completely different suit rather than just further enhancing the natural traits of the suit.
Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1476	Posted - 2014.10.23 07:31:00 - [8] - Quote castba wrote: Native repair, no thanks. Hp mods percentage based? Yes please. Difficult to balance though. I'm curious, why no native repair?
Firbolg Barun Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 53	Posted - 2014.10.23 07:37:00 - [9] - Quote Another aspect is that most percentage based module bonuses do have stacking penalties. So should HP modules.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game RUST415 1375	Posted - 2014.10.23 07:47:00 - [10] - Quote Firbolg Barun wrote: Another aspect is that most percentage based module bonuses do have stacking penalties. So should HP modules. Shield depleted delays and Armour movement penalties .. so they do suffer for stacking Innapropriate Irrelevence...

Firbolg Barun Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 53	Posted - 2014.10.23 07:49:00 - [11] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Firbolg Barun wrote: Another aspect is that most percentage based module bonuses do have stacking penalties. So should HP modules. Shield depleted delays and Armour movement penalties .. so they do suffer for stacking Stacking penalty is not the same as a module penalty.
castba Merc-0107 623	Posted - 2014.10.23 08:09:00 - [12] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: castba wrote: Native repair, no thanks. Hp mods percentage based? Yes please. Difficult to balance though. I'm curious, why no native repair? Would mean even brick tanking than now. "When everything is OP, nothing is" - CCP Ratatti
Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1478	Posted - 2014.10.23 08:23:00 - [13] - Quote castba wrote: Protocake JR wrote: castba wrote: Native repair, no thanks. Hp mods percentage based? Yes please. Difficult to balance though. I'm curious, why no native repair? Would mean even brick tanking than now. You have to look at the native repair in context of the rebalanced base stats and rebalanced, percent based, modules. Brick tanking won't be as viable as it has always been.
DARU Prime Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2014.10.23 08:27:00 - [14] - Quote About the percentage mods.. if armor or shields, would they still have the movement penalties and recharge depletion/recharge delay?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3854	Posted - 2014.10.23 10:00:00 - [15] - Quote You would have to completely rebuild the dropsuits. Overtanked scouts aren't the problem (for the thousanth time) Its inertia. Since CCP IS STARTING CLIENT UPDATES AGAIN... Why not ask them to fix inertia? EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Dingleburt Bangledack 290	Posted - 2014.10.23 14:53:00 - [16] - Quote I'd like this to happen if they shared the same stacking penalties as all other percent based modules. I don't know, I just want to live in a world where all the mods get used because "EHP > All" is no longer a thing since there would really be no point in adding a 3rd or 4th HP Mod. (Of course this would end up highlighting the fact that we're severely lacking in the High Slot department...)) Edit: Quoted something that had nothing to do with my comment...
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4073	Posted - 2014.10.23 15:44:00 - [17] - Quote castba wrote: Native repair, no thanks. Hp mods percentage based? Yes please. Difficult to balance though. Native armor repair went live as of this morning. All dropsuits have at least some amount of armor HP/sec. My advice to you, playa...
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 397	Posted - 2014.10.23 18:14:00 - [18] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: Heavy's will never have scout strafe speed, regen, and ewar (which is flawed) because those modules are percent based. ..well, but he can use LAV instead. Double tanking - there should be some drawbacks to shield on armor modules, and armor on shield modules - so that fiting max shield and armor is not efficient. Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
Skullmiser Vulcansu 152	Posted - 2014.10.25 01:36:00 - [19] - Quote This affects logistics suits almost as much as scouts, and I don't want the HP of logistics suits to be crippled. It sounds to me like you want heavy frames to have a greater HP advantage than they do now. Overall, It wouldn't affe If this game was fun, I wouldn't be playing it.
Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1482	Posted - 2014.10.25 01:39:00 - [20] - Quote Skullmiser Vulcansu wrote: This affects logistics suits almost as much as scouts, and I don't want the HP of logistics suits to be crippled. It sounds to me like you want heavy frames to have a greater HP advantage than they do now. Overall, It wouldn't affe Base suit health stats would be rebalanced to better reflect their intended health. This is to mainly stop two things: Brick tanking effectiveness and scouts being able have assault health while still maintaining frame size advantage, speed advantage, and radar advantage.

Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1482	Posted - 2014.10.25 01:43:00 - [21] - Quote Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote: Protocake JR wrote: Heavy's will never have scout strafe speed, regen, and ewar (which is flawed) because those modules are percent based. ..well, but he can use LAV instead. Double tanking - there should be some drawbacks to shield on armor modules, and armor on shield modules - so that fiting max shield and armor is not efficient. I'm actually not a fan of all the "penalties" and "drawbacks" route. It just makes things convoluted. There is no reason for them at all when we have so many different suits. ps. they can use an LAV outside, but not in city/indoor areas (effectively).
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1406	Posted - 2014.10.25 02:22:00 - [22] - Quote Several resons why an ADDITIVE bonus should not be a +percentage modifier. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1482	Posted - 2014.10.25 02:25:00 - [23] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Several resons why an ADDITIVE bonus should not be a +percentage modifier. wat I'm talking about readjusted percentage modifiers when applied to readjusted base stats. I'm speaking out against additive bonuses completely.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12791	Posted - 2014.10.25 08:30:00 - [24] - Quote Almost impossible to balance, and I would like to see them as a separate module if they do ever happen. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1482	Posted - 2014.10.25 12:42:00 - [25] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Almost impossible to balance, and I would like to see them as a separate module if they do ever happen. ... HOW would it be impossible? Are you joking? It makes things more straightforward; much less convoluted as things are now while enhancing the race/frame meta game. Do you not realize the static numbers of health mods that we have now is impossible to balance between three frame sizes?
Stupid Blueberry Wirykomi Wolf Pack 523	Posted - 2014.10.25 18:53:00 - [26] - Quote We need more modules cough hardeners cough Chillin, waitin on Legion. Ishukone loyalist, Caldari Scout enthusiast!
iWanderer PT-BR 6	Posted - 2014.10.25 19:49:00 - [27] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: ... Dropsuits should have native armor repair, something along the lines of a gallente scout having 25hp/s and a caldari sentinel having 5hp/s. The rest of the dropsuits would fit in somewhere in between those two numbers depending on frame size and race. ...... This has been proposed and due to deploy on Tuesday. Original thread is https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=178392 but since it looking kind of a gallente nerf, I have proposed the following: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2418986#post2418986: Proposed Armor rep/s Light Suits: ............................. Scout Suits: Basic Cal - 0,5.....................................Cal - 1 Basic Amarr - 1................................Amarr - 1,5 Basic Min - 1.....................................Min - 1,5 Basic Gal - 2.................................... Gal - 2,5 Medium Suits:................................... Assault Suits: Basic Cal - 1,5........................................ Cal - 2 Basic Amarr - 2 ...................................Amarr - 2,5 Basic Min - 2 ....................................... Min - 2,5 Basic Gal - 3........................................ Gal - 3,5 All the same. Heavy Suits: .....................................Sentinel Suits: Basic Cal - 1 .....................................Cal - 1,5 Basic Amarr - 1,5.................................Amarr - 2 Basic Min - 1,5..................................... Min - 2 Basic Gal 2,5 .......................................Gal - 3 Commandos: - Gal - Min - Amarr - Cal - should be 3,5 - 2,5 - 2,5 - 2 Logis - Same as assault or I think better, use basic medium values if to make then tougher...
Lloyd Orfay Commando Perkone Caldari State 100	Posted - 2014.10.26 01:01:00 - [28] - Quote All suits having "some" ability to dual tank is a blessing, and mitigating it will **** everyone up. Basically that would allow people with armour damage based weapons to shoot through armour tanker's shields and immediately kill them, and vice versa for shield tankers, but shield tankers are unlucky as nearly all weapons do disproportionately high damage to shielding. Plus, this would beef up sentinels to the point that their HP pool in whatever they specialise in tanking would be so large that the HP pool may negate damage profiles. Summary: Hell no. Suits need native armour, but it must be a small amount, like 2 or 3 points Armour repairers may start better off if the basic started with 3 and prototype had just 7 Armour repair needs to be a low number, since armour sacrifices regeneration for HP and shields sacrifice HP for regeneration(Even though nearly all suits have such a sub par shield regen time/ depleted time) If a caldari was tanking a lot of armour, then it should stay so until the gun's damage profiles are treated and shield tanking becomes viable, then maybe something like a low slot or so could be removed OR we apply something like a racial suit penalty to shields or armour plates/extender's HP (Nothing really big, just something noticeable) but not regeneration modules. One main issue with tanking scouts is that scouts need to sacrifice slots, need less strafing speed(all light and medium suits do, because all light and medium suits actually move much faster than a human can side to side. Funny too because these suits also can't run as fast as a human can in terms of moving forward/back) an actual role that binds them to teams and other sacrifices. Proto players are the epitome of "havng your cake after you ate it" which is why most will never develop real skill
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1037	Posted - 2014.10.26 01:08:00 - [29] - Quote the proper hp fix is to add levels of armor. in eve a frigate cant use the same plate as a battleship in dust a scout shouldnt be able to use the same plate as a heavy. make the basic light plate something like 66 and make the basic heavy plate 106. then the basic medium plate would stay at 86. light suits cant stack as much health but they can chose to tank the scout ineffectively if they choose and its done fair. everyone wins additionally you could choose to add resistance modules but that would require an entire overhaul of hp and weapon damage. it does need to happened to put the game on par with eve because in eve ships have inate resistances and resistance mods. this would also require fixing the incorrect damage profiles and adding ammo into the game.amarr lasers are em. railguns are kinetic damage with a little thermal and blasters are thermal with some kinetic depending on what ammo is used. minmatar weapons are explosive. transfer the ammo types over from eve just reduce how extreme the stat differences are to make them fair within an fps setting. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Lloyd Orfay Commando Perkone Caldari State 100	Posted - 2014.10.26 01:13:00 - [30] - Quote iWanderer wrote: Protocake JR wrote: ... Dropsuits should have native armor repair, something along the lines of a gallente scout having 25hp/s and a caldari sentinel having 5hp/s. The rest of the dropsuits would fit in somewhere in between those two numbers depending on frame size and race. ...... This has been proposed and due to deploy on Tuesday. Original thread is https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=178392 but since it looking kind of a gallente nerf, I have proposed the following: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2418986#post2418986: Proposed Armor rep/s Light Suits: ............................. Scout Suits: Basic Cal - 0,5.....................................Cal - 1 Basic Amarr - 1................................Amarr - 2 Basic Min - 1.....................................Min - 1.5 Basic Gal - 2.................................... Gal - 3 Medium Suits:................................... Assault Suits: Basic Cal - 1........................................ Cal - 2 Basic Amarr - 2 ...................................Amarr - 3.5 Basic Min - 1 ....................................... Min - 2 Basic Gal - 2........................................ Gal - 4 Heavy Suits: .....................................Sentinel Suits: Basic Cal - 1 .....................................Cal - 1 Basic Amarr - 1.5 .................................Amarr - 2 Basic Min - 1 ..................................... Min - 1.5 Basic Gal 2.5 .......................................Gal - 3 Commandos: - Gal - Min - Amarr - Cal - should be 3 - 1 - 2 - 1 Logis - Same as assault or I think better, use basic medium values if to make then tougher... It's not a nerf, just the Devs didn't really need to use decimals for so many things I changed the stats to conform to something better(where gallente are top armour regen, amarr have second best and caldari/minmatar have the least) Proto players are the epitome of "havng your cake after you ate it" which is why most will never develop real skill

Lloyd Orfay Commando Perkone Caldari State 100	Posted - 2014.10.26 01:20:00 - [31] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: the proper hp fix is to add levels of armor. in eve a frigate cant use the same plate as a battleship in dust a scout shouldnt be able to use the same plate as a heavy. make the basic light plate something like 66 and make the basic heavy plate 106. then the basic medium plate would stay at 86. light suits cant stack as much health but they can chose to tank the scout ineffectively if they choose and its done fair. everyone wins additionally you could choose to add resistance modules but that would require an entire overhaul of hp and weapon damage. it does need to happened to put the game on par with eve because in eve ships have inate resistances and resistance mods. this would also require fixing the incorrect damage profiles and adding ammo into the game.amarr lasers are em. railguns are kinetic damage with a little thermal and blasters are thermal with some kinetic depending on what ammo is used. minmatar weapons are explosive. transfer the ammo types over from eve just reduce how extreme the stat differences are to make them fair within an fps setting. ' Auris, this is actually quite a good idea, though it may make sentinels and commandos stronger, which they're already strong enough. Maybe if this was actually used we can reduce the HP amount sentinels/ commandos don't take in so that they have the disadvantage of needing to rely on what they specialise in. Maybe the ammo type transfer might work too(but as of now plasma rifles and rails do too much damage to their opposite specification, so I guess we could have guns with stark damage types where none are hybrid, and then certain gun variants have a hybrid type but sacrifice damage in the specification for the opposite damage profile) Proto players are the epitome of "havng your cake after you ate it" which is why most will never develop real skill
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2928	Posted - 2014.10.26 11:45:00 - [32] - Quote Or just implement light, medium and heavy armor plates. This is also doable as a hotfix. Fix mouse support in Dust 514! How to do it: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=965407#post965407
Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1483	Posted - 2014.10.26 11:53:00 - [33] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Or just implement light, medium and heavy armor plates. This is also doable as a hotfix. That is literally, essentially, the same thing. Well, it at least achieves the same thing. The only thing, though, is that modules are organized by lists... looong lists. I think it would be simpler to just change the modules we have now into percentages rather than create new ones to clutter through.
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2928	Posted - 2014.10.26 13:09:00 - [34] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Or just implement light, medium and heavy armor plates. This is also doable as a hotfix. That is literally, essentially, the same thing. Well, it at least achieves the same thing. The only thing, though, is that modules are organized by lists... looong lists. I think it would be simpler to just change the modules we have now into percentages rather than create new ones to clutter through. Yeah, and IMHO it is the easiest way to implement it for Rattati & Co. Fix mouse support in Dust 514! How to do it: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=965407#post965407
iWanderer PT-BR 6	Posted - 2014.10.26 15:31:00 - [35] - Quote Lloyd Orfay wrote: ... I changed the stats to conform to something better(where gallente are top armour regen, amarr have second best and caldari/minmatar have the least)... I have made a spreadsheet with all initial proposed values, my values and your values to try it out, and to reach some balance I had to use a kind of common denominator to compare races. Lets call the value Beta. What I did was sum total (standard racial suit) hp and divide that by the time of minutes it takes to reach full hp (armor + shields). With that Beta value plot a graph with total hp versus that Beta. Result: All suits have a lower Beta than total hp, except Scout Gal and Min, which values could be revised in my proposal to Gal Scout 2hp/s and Min Scout to 1 hp/s With you proposal, which in fact I like the better hp/s, there are problems with: - Scout Gal and Min, which values could be revised in your proposal to Gal Scout 2hp/s , Min Scout to 1 hp/s , Amar Scout to 1,5 Hp/s - Amarr Logi to 2 hp/s , Cal Logi 1,5 - Comando Cal to 1,5 and Min to 2 - Amarr Assault to 2,5 - Cal Sentinal should be 1,5 but then that makes it same as Cal commando and logi. The values result in the same shape as last revision by CCP Rattati, with exception of Logi Cal which should be something like 1,5 In sum, and that I think Gal should be top armorers, you values are good with a few changes or my proposal thats gets a good Beta value across the board, with exception to Gal and Min Scout. Your proposal with 4hp for Gal Assualt could compensate for the suit bonus fiasco, but thats another discussion. This should be looked at because not all suits are the same in regard to armor, shield, shield regen and in sum, total hp. The revision should not be simple and say give commando and logi in all cases the same becausa total hp is not the same. CCP Rattati, have you tried this approach with Beta Value?
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2014.10.26 18:37:00 - [36] - Quote Example thought: Basic Armor Plate = +9% Enhanced Armor Plate = +13% Complex Armor Plate = +18% Efficacy bonuses apply HIGH END Current maxed ak.0 sent = 1344 armor using 4 low slots Ak.0 Sentinel with 750 base armor at max armor bonus and 4 low slots = 75079.2% = 1344 armor LOW END Current M-I scout with no armor skill bonus = 70 armor and 2 low slots M-I scout with MLT plates = 7018%=82.6 armor = 83 armor This keeps the highest end at the current rate and encourages the intention of separate roles. These are just quick numbers, if I find the time maybe I'll throw together a spreadsheet. Or if anyone else feels inclined...
iWanderer PT-BR 6	Posted - 2014.10.27 07:36:00 - [37] - Quote In regard to armor repping, check out a new spreadsheet I made in post: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2421336#post2421336


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