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Protocake JR
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
1473
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Posted - 2014.10.23 06:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dropsuit base health should be balanced to better reflect the suits strength depending on frame size and race. Then certain health mods, being percent based, would be better used in a certain dropsuit than another. The same with how ewar/movement/shield regen/ modules are now.
Modules like armor plates would benefit dropsuits with higher base armor better than dropsuits with low base armor. Same principle would apply to shield extenders.
Dropsuits should have native armor repair, something along the lines of a gallente scout having 25hp/s and a caldari sentinel having 5hp/s. The rest of the dropsuits would fit in somewhere in between those two numbers depending on frame size and race. Then a repair mod having, lets say, a 25% increase in armor repair, would benefit the gallente scout more than the caldari sentinel.
This would mitigate duel tanking and "light suits with assault health", which will provide more consistent "information at a glance", meaning, if you see a caldari assault/logi, it's going to be shield based. No more, "Oh hey I found a gal scout in the open, gunna go kill it- oh **** it has more over 600 armor, smaller hitbox, and faster strafe speed. nvm..."
The reason scouts (this is not a scout hate thread) have an advantage over other suits is because they can easily overcome their only major weakness, low health, with health mods. Heavy's will never have scout strafe speed, regen, and ewar (which is flawed) because those modules are percent based. Staking these modules on a heavy and medium suit just isn't worth the loss of health.
Or we could make every module give a hard numbered bonus, just like health mods are now, in order to balance out the suits, but I think it would be easier, and create less chaos if the devs made health mods percent based. Balance between frames and races will be closer. |
CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
2107
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Posted - 2014.10.23 06:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
This has been suggested before but if I remember correctly Rattati / CCP did not like the idea.
I cannot think why though I am sure there must be a reason right?
"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones"
"Guns for show, Knives for a pro"
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
263
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Posted - 2014.10.23 07:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
I really like the idea of Armor plates and shield extenders being percent based. Bump+like from me.
The scout rhetoric is unneeded though. I wouldn't think about scouts in the slightest if balancing this change -- because it's so good it balances itself!!
(although I don't agree with native repair. I think THAT is fine as it.) |
castba
Merc-0107
623
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Posted - 2014.10.23 07:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Native repair, no thanks.
Hp mods percentage based? Yes please. Difficult to balance though.
"When everything is OP, nothing is" - CCP Ratatti
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Llast 326
An Arkhos
4980
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Posted - 2014.10.23 07:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:This has been suggested before but if I remember correctly Rattati / CCP did not like the idea.
I cannot think why though I am sure there must be a reason right?
I've seen this idea before and I do like itGǪ a problem as I understand it would be the need to totally rebalance HP for all suits, and likely some other TTK adjustments. The disparity between base suit HP is very broad. Add 20% to scout and add 20% to a SentinelGǪ the gap becomes very wide even before factoring in Sent resistances.
KRRROOOOOOM
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Firbolg Barun
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
52
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Posted - 2014.10.23 07:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yep, I completely agree that MODIFERS should MULTIPLY your current suit's statistics. Could solve many problems in this game, such as scouts being better assaults than assaults. |
Protocake JR
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
1476
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Posted - 2014.10.23 07:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
@CommanderBolt
I wonder why as well? If there is a problem with this, then I would suspect it's because of a flaw of the system/mechanic overall. Or maybe it's just a lot of work. Easier said than done.
@Imp Smash
Thanks for the like. The scout rhetoric was just an example. I run scouts myself, an amarr "true ewar scout" and an "assault scout". Scouts just stick out the most over all the other suits. But other suits can do this as well. Logistics caldari for example. They have quite a few low slots that allow them to get around 600 armor, which i've seen quite a few times. The point I wanted to make was that it's unfair that one specific frame size can easily overcome it's weakness with minimal sacrifice, while the other suits cannot do the same. This caused by the inconsistent bonuses modules give. Either make all modules percent based, or make all modules give static numbers. I prefer the percent based options, as I feel it enhances the frame/race meta gameplay.
Although I can say that this may be considered a slot count/layout issue as well, if you choose to see it that way. Going from STD to PRO will give you more slots, more slots means more health and more opportunities to break out of your "mold" and become a completely different suit rather than just further enhancing the natural traits of the suit.
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Protocake JR
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
1476
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Posted - 2014.10.23 07:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
castba wrote:Native repair, no thanks.
Hp mods percentage based? Yes please. Difficult to balance though.
I'm curious, why no native repair? |
Firbolg Barun
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
53
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Posted - 2014.10.23 07:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
Another aspect is that most percentage based module bonuses do have stacking penalties. So should HP modules. |
TheD1CK
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
1375
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Posted - 2014.10.23 07:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Firbolg Barun wrote:Another aspect is that most percentage based module bonuses do have stacking penalties. So should HP modules.
Shield depleted delays and Armour movement penalties .. so they do suffer for stacking
Innapropriate Irrelevence...
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Firbolg Barun
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
53
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Posted - 2014.10.23 07:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
TheD1CK wrote:Firbolg Barun wrote:Another aspect is that most percentage based module bonuses do have stacking penalties. So should HP modules. Shield depleted delays and Armour movement penalties .. so they do suffer for stacking
Stacking penalty is not the same as a module penalty.
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castba
Merc-0107
623
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Posted - 2014.10.23 08:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Protocake JR wrote:castba wrote:Native repair, no thanks.
Hp mods percentage based? Yes please. Difficult to balance though. I'm curious, why no native repair?
Would mean even brick tanking than now.
"When everything is OP, nothing is" - CCP Ratatti
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Protocake JR
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
1478
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Posted - 2014.10.23 08:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
castba wrote:Protocake JR wrote:castba wrote:Native repair, no thanks.
Hp mods percentage based? Yes please. Difficult to balance though. I'm curious, why no native repair? Would mean even brick tanking than now.
You have to look at the native repair in context of the rebalanced base stats and rebalanced, percent based, modules. Brick tanking won't be as viable as it has always been. |
DARU Prime
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2014.10.23 08:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
About the percentage mods..
if armor or shields, would they still have the movement penalties and recharge depletion/recharge delay? |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
3854
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 10:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
You would have to completely rebuild the dropsuits.
Overtanked scouts aren't the problem (for the thousanth time)
Its inertia.
Since CCP IS STARTING CLIENT UPDATES AGAIN...
Why not ask them to fix inertia?
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Dingleburt Bangledack
290
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Posted - 2014.10.23 14:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'd like this to happen if they shared the same stacking penalties as all other percent based modules.
I don't know, I just want to live in a world where all the mods get used because "EHP > All" is no longer a thing since there would really be no point in adding a 3rd or 4th HP Mod. (Of course this would end up highlighting the fact that we're severely lacking in the High Slot department...))
Edit: Quoted something that had nothing to do with my comment...  |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
4073
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Posted - 2014.10.23 15:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
castba wrote:Native repair, no thanks.
Hp mods percentage based? Yes please. Difficult to balance though. Native armor repair went live as of this morning. All dropsuits have at least some amount of armor HP/sec.
My advice to you, playa...
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Sylwester Dziewiecki
Interregnum.
397
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Posted - 2014.10.23 18:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Protocake JR wrote:Heavy's will never have scout strafe speed, regen, and ewar (which is flawed) because those modules are percent based.
..well, but he can use LAV instead.
Double tanking - there should be some drawbacks to shield on armor modules, and armor on shield modules - so that fiting max shield and armor is not efficient.
Gallente Speed Scout.
EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
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Skullmiser Vulcansu
152
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Posted - 2014.10.25 01:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
This affects logistics suits almost as much as scouts, and I don't want the HP of logistics suits to be crippled.
It sounds to me like you want heavy frames to have a greater HP advantage than they do now.
Overall, It wouldn't affe
If this game was fun, I wouldn't be playing it.
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Protocake JR
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
1482
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Posted - 2014.10.25 01:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
Skullmiser Vulcansu wrote:This affects logistics suits almost as much as scouts, and I don't want the HP of logistics suits to be crippled.
It sounds to me like you want heavy frames to have a greater HP advantage than they do now.
Overall, It wouldn't affe
Base suit health stats would be rebalanced to better reflect their intended health.
This is to mainly stop two things: Brick tanking effectiveness and scouts being able have assault health while still maintaining frame size advantage, speed advantage, and radar advantage. |
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Protocake JR
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
1482
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Posted - 2014.10.25 01:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:Protocake JR wrote:Heavy's will never have scout strafe speed, regen, and ewar (which is flawed) because those modules are percent based. ..well, but he can use LAV instead. Double tanking - there should be some drawbacks to shield on armor modules, and armor on shield modules - so that fiting max shield and armor is not efficient.
I'm actually not a fan of all the "penalties" and "drawbacks" route. It just makes things convoluted. There is no reason for them at all when we have so many different suits.
ps. they can use an LAV outside, but not in city/indoor areas (effectively). |
KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1406
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Posted - 2014.10.25 02:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
Several resons why an ADDITIVE bonus should not be a +percentage modifier.
People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
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Protocake JR
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
1482
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Posted - 2014.10.25 02:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:Several resons why an ADDITIVE bonus should not be a +percentage modifier.
wat
I'm talking about readjusted percentage modifiers when applied to readjusted base stats. I'm speaking out against additive bonuses completely. |
Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
12791
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Posted - 2014.10.25 08:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Almost impossible to balance, and I would like to see them as a separate module if they do ever happen.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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Protocake JR
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
1482
|
Posted - 2014.10.25 12:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Almost impossible to balance, and I would like to see them as a separate module if they do ever happen.
... HOW would it be impossible? Are you joking? It makes things more straightforward; much less convoluted as things are now while enhancing the race/frame meta game.
Do you not realize the static numbers of health mods that we have now is impossible to balance between three frame sizes? |
Stupid Blueberry
Wirykomi Wolf Pack
523
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Posted - 2014.10.25 18:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
We need more modules *cough* hardeners *cough*
Chillin, waitin on Legion.
Ishukone loyalist, Caldari Scout enthusiast!
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iWanderer
PT-BR
6
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Posted - 2014.10.25 19:49:00 -
[27] - Quote
Protocake JR wrote:...
Dropsuits should have native armor repair, something along the lines of a gallente scout having 25hp/s and a caldari sentinel having 5hp/s. The rest of the dropsuits would fit in somewhere in between those two numbers depending on frame size and race. ......
This has been proposed and due to deploy on Tuesday.
Original thread is https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=178392
but since it looking kind of a gallente nerf, I have proposed the following:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2418986#post2418986:
Proposed Armor rep/s
Light Suits: ............................. Scout Suits:
Basic Cal - 0,5.....................................Cal - 1
Basic Amarr - 1................................Amarr - 1,5
Basic Min - 1.....................................Min - 1,5
Basic Gal - 2.................................... Gal - 2,5
Medium Suits:................................... Assault Suits:
Basic Cal - 1,5........................................ Cal - 2
Basic Amarr - 2 ...................................Amarr - 2,5
Basic Min - 2 ....................................... Min - 2,5
Basic Gal - 3........................................ Gal - 3,5
All the same.
Heavy Suits: .....................................Sentinel Suits:
Basic Cal - 1 .....................................Cal - 1,5
Basic Amarr - 1,5.................................Amarr - 2
Basic Min - 1,5..................................... Min - 2
Basic Gal 2,5 .......................................Gal - 3
Commandos: - Gal - Min - Amarr - Cal - should be 3,5 - 2,5 - 2,5 - 2
Logis - Same as assault or I think better, use basic medium values if to make then tougher... |
Lloyd Orfay
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
100
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Posted - 2014.10.26 01:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
All suits having "some" ability to dual tank is a blessing, and mitigating it will **** everyone up.
Basically that would allow people with armour damage based weapons to shoot through armour tanker's shields and immediately kill them, and vice versa for shield tankers, but shield tankers are unlucky as nearly all weapons do disproportionately high damage to shielding.
Plus, this would beef up sentinels to the point that their HP pool in whatever they specialise in tanking would be so large that the HP pool may negate damage profiles.
Summary: Hell no.
Suits need native armour, but it must be a small amount, like 2 or 3 points
Armour repairers may start better off if the basic started with 3 and prototype had just 7
Armour repair needs to be a low number, since armour sacrifices regeneration for HP and shields sacrifice HP for regeneration(Even though nearly all suits have such a sub par shield regen time/ depleted time)
If a caldari was tanking a lot of armour, then it should stay so until the gun's damage profiles are treated and shield tanking becomes viable, then maybe something like a low slot or so could be removed OR we apply something like a racial suit penalty to shields or armour plates/extender's HP (Nothing really big, just something noticeable) but not regeneration modules.
One main issue with tanking scouts is that scouts need to sacrifice slots, need less strafing speed(all light and medium suits do, because all light and medium suits actually move much faster than a human can side to side. Funny too because these suits also can't run as fast as a human can in terms of moving forward/back) an actual role that binds them to teams and other sacrifices.
Proto players are the epitome of "havng your cake after you ate it" which is why most will never develop real skill
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Auris Lionesse
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
1037
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Posted - 2014.10.26 01:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
the proper hp fix is to add levels of armor.
in eve a frigate cant use the same plate as a battleship
in dust a scout shouldnt be able to use the same plate as a heavy.
make the basic light plate something like 66 and make the basic heavy plate 106.
then the basic medium plate would stay at 86.
light suits cant stack as much health but they can chose to tank the scout ineffectively if they choose and its done fair.
everyone wins
additionally you could choose to add resistance modules but that would require an entire overhaul of hp and weapon damage. it does need to happened to put the game on par with eve because in eve ships have inate resistances and resistance mods.
this would also require fixing the incorrect damage profiles and adding ammo into the game.amarr lasers are em.
railguns are kinetic damage with a little thermal and blasters are thermal with some kinetic depending on what ammo is used.
minmatar weapons are explosive. transfer the ammo types over from eve just reduce how extreme the stat differences are to make them fair within an fps setting.
Don't vote for iron wolf saber.
Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
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Lloyd Orfay
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
100
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Posted - 2014.10.26 01:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
iWanderer wrote:Protocake JR wrote:...
Dropsuits should have native armor repair, something along the lines of a gallente scout having 25hp/s and a caldari sentinel having 5hp/s. The rest of the dropsuits would fit in somewhere in between those two numbers depending on frame size and race. ...... This has been proposed and due to deploy on Tuesday. Original thread is https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=178392but since it looking kind of a gallente nerf, I have proposed the following: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2418986#post2418986:Proposed Armor rep/sLight Suits: ............................. Scout Suits:Basic Cal - 0,5.....................................Cal - 1 Basic Amarr - 1................................Amarr - 2 Basic Min - 1.....................................Min - 1.5 Basic Gal - 2.................................... Gal - 3 Medium Suits:................................... Assault Suits:Basic Cal - 1........................................ Cal - 2 Basic Amarr - 2 ...................................Amarr - 3.5 Basic Min - 1 ....................................... Min - 2 Basic Gal - 2........................................ Gal - 4 Heavy Suits: .....................................Sentinel Suits:Basic Cal - 1 .....................................Cal - 1 Basic Amarr - 1.5 .................................Amarr - 2 Basic Min - 1 ..................................... Min - 1.5 Basic Gal 2.5 .......................................Gal - 3 Commandos: - Gal - Min - Amarr - Cal - should be 3 - 1 - 2 - 1 Logis - Same as assault or I think better, use basic medium values if to make then tougher...
It's not a nerf, just the Devs didn't really need to use decimals for so many things
I changed the stats to conform to something better(where gallente are top armour regen, amarr have second best and caldari/minmatar have the least)
Proto players are the epitome of "havng your cake after you ate it" which is why most will never develop real skill
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