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Bahirae Serugiusu
Vendetta Reactionary Force
174
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Posted - 2014.10.14 01:35:00 -
[31] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:
As long as CCP listens to the so-called majority in the forums, which basically mean people who are too bad to actually play the game, things wont get better.
AS you can see, you posted something that was half-way ranty but in no way false and all you get is troll soup up the anus. Ignorance will always drive change, specially if they cry the hardest. Most ADS pilots actually prefer to play the game instead of being in the forums 24/7 so they will not be heard above all the **** most of these forum warriors crap through their mouths at a rate so fast you don't know how it's physically possible that their anus isn't vacuming all oxygen of the room they are sitting in...
I've seen more ADS pilots on the forums whining about AV then anything else lately. |
Bahirae Serugiusu
Vendetta Reactionary Force
174
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Posted - 2014.10.14 01:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:XxGhazbaranxX wrote:... going 40-0 with a scout, a heavy or a logi as long as those damn ADS pilots aren't able to. It's a really hipocritical idea that ground troops will always stick to.
To be fair, anyone and everyone can shoot back at a Scout, Heavy or Logi. The same is true of vehicles, every single player has free unlimited swarm missiles. Every player has acess to installations, militia tanks with militia railguns, militia kamikazee ships, militia heavy suits and militia forge guns. SP cost 0 Anyone and everyone can shoot at vehicles.
Lets see Installations have a massive blindspot, militia tanks at best can get points for damaging a standard dropship with one shot, militia forge guns can barely strip shields on a Incubus, militia swarms can barely strip shields on a LAV, kamikaze dropships would work assuming they are flying a Python and don't see you before its to late. |
Miokai Zahou
WarRavens
Capital Punishment.
405
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Posted - 2014.10.14 01:50:00 -
[33] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:TTK on an ADS is identical to the TTK on an HAV.
I kill a python in 3 shots. I kill a gunnlogi in 3 shots. TTK is identical unless tye gunnlogi sacrifices a useful gun turret to spike their tank hard.
Same with an Incubus and madrugar. Three shots unless the driver forgoes a more useful main gun.
Are you saying the ADS needs to be more resilient and hard to kill than an HAV?
Serious question.
Also when I have two 5m SP assaults focus fire on my sentinel my max skill sentinel usually dies. Why should an ADS be different facing two enemy AV?
HAVs die by the numbers vs. Two AV with a level of haste that is amazing. When I pair off with another forge gunner even an overtanked HAV dies in around seven seconds.
Making ADS able to tank and deal with AV teams would actually make them more resilient than an HAV because of speed.
Teamwork is deadly. Tank drivers have learned that when an area has multiple AV it's time to be somewhere else immediately where there are not multiple AV.
Here is where people make the biggest mistake when comparing TTK with an ADS VS whatever - ADS have almost no cover. A HAV/infantry can utilize the surrounding cover on the ground because there is an abundant amount to use where as an ADS does not.
Now combine that factor with homing missiles that have an incredible amount of DPS and range and plus most of the time infantry does not render and you have a very bad situation for an ADS TTK, team work is deadly but i can solo skilled HAVs and ADS pilots by myself with a advance SL with an advance caldari commando suit which is saying something.
ADS needs an ehp increase or cop/pg increase.
Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.
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Miokai Zahou
WarRavens
Capital Punishment.
405
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Posted - 2014.10.14 02:06:00 -
[34] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Miokai Zahou wrote:ADS is in a bad place at the moment as the time to kill is way too short and the rate of fire nerf didn't help either but I've gotten used to it.
The TTK of a Maxed Swarmer vs an ADS (assuming best fits) is:
- Python: 12.02s
- Incubus: 6.01s
*Assumes 0m away from Target
Notice that with a base speed of 50m/s, you can still escape the Swarmer's lock range in 3.5s, which is shorter than the TTK of any of the Dropships listed. The Incubus may be much more susceptible to Swarms than the Python, but I don't see how this is a problem considering how Swarm Launchers are Explosives (-20/+20). That would be like a Shield Tanker trying to take on a SCR head-on as opposed to attacking it by surprise and wondering why you keep dying.
Numbers are great on paper but in practical use it is almost negligible due to the constant variables of the continues battle conditions applied per match plus limited resources the PS3 can keep it's performance at 'peak' condition before going into overload i.e rendering issues.
Swarm Launchers although have a profile of Explosives (-20/+20) still do more damage to the Python due to low shield ehp and armor than an Incubus that can passively tank the damage while flying away and self repairing during damage taken - the Python can not.
Admittedly those that hover to long in one area should be shot down (I've done that too so I'm bad and should feel bad!) but most times i hit-and-run infantry/drop uplinks and and never see the one or two SL while making high speed passes which is pretty much the death kneel of the python.
Over all the ADS does need to be re-looked into especially the Python's ehp or the mechanics of the shield in general as the TTK is way to short.
Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
524
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Posted - 2014.10.14 02:54:00 -
[35] - Quote
Bahirae Serugiusu wrote:
3. You know those silly little turrets that you have on your ADS that you wish you could remove because why should you share your dropship with other people? Let two people onto your ADS and use them.
I hear removing hp to fit 2 extra turrets is a good way to avoid swarms from downing you without reloading... Spec into dropships and let me know how that one turns out.
If swarms are to continue being unavoidable, then the only other options are to drop the damage, make it harder to lock on or reduce the distance they travel... They're supposed to be area denial, but the area they deny is most of the map.
The other issue is with the 1v1 balance... If you fit multiple turrets you can have 3 people in a ship, yet 1 av still trumps 3 people... Not to mention vehicles are limited to 5 (or 2 if you scrub into ambush modes) yet the whole team is free to carry some form of AV.
Also 1 last issue with this (lack of) balance, is that the reduced number of vehicles is having a serious effect on the already low payouts for everyone. |
Halla Murr
Skullbreakers
43
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Posted - 2014.10.14 04:46:00 -
[36] - Quote
Bahirae Serugiusu wrote:Lets see Installations have a massive blindspot, militia tanks at best can get points for damaging a standard dropship with one shot, militia forge guns can barely strip shields on a Incubus, militia swarms can barely strip shields on a LAV, kamikaze dropships would work assuming they are flying a Python and don't see you before its to late.
Installations do have a blindspot, this is true. That does not mean that an ADS is invulnerable while above the installation: said infantry player manning the installation could quite easily have a Swarm/Forge/PLC and hop off to shoot at the now relatively stationary target (if they're maintaining position to avoid being shot.)
MLT FGs: they are not nearlly as effective as proper AV, this is correct. But a MFG charges as fast as and does as much damage as a STD FG. Thing is, most ADSs are tanked to PRO levels (ie, using the best modules available) because that is the only way to survive, and considering even the cheapest fit is still more expensive than almost every dropsuit (I think a MLT ADS might cost less than a fully outfitted PRO Logi, though I'm not certain on that) it isn't worth losing a marginally cheaper 'ship when fitting it properly would have kept you alive.
MLT Swarms: again, substantially less effective than skilled AV. Not exactly unreasonable. But that does not mean that they are not threatening. Anecdotally; I ran a completely unskilled (Anti-Armour fit, 0 SP in AV or relevant skills) and while I did not kill the enemy Python, I knocked it's shields to 1/3rd strength (from roughly 2600 down to 1000) with two volleys - this was enough to net me Vehicle Damage WP (equivalent to more than an infantry kill.) That fit risked zero investment (SP or ISK) and was still a reasonable threat that cannot be ignored for more than a couple of seconds.
Kamikaze DS: this is a strange one, but mostly because it does actually require skill to fly. I've used KDSs to kill pilot-stacking ADSs before Delta (because I abhor that abuse - SP rendering actual skill irrelevant) and I can fairly reliably kill an enemy ADS. You say that the ADS must not see you? Wrong - if the ADS sees you it has two options: consider you a threat and evade/attempt to shoot you down (essentially what every ADS pilot tries to assess); or ignore you (usually if you are considered a transport 'ship) and attempt to actually contribute to the ground battle in some way.
Assuming a vaguely competent KDS pilot (ie, someone who has at least a little experience against ADSs and actually knows how to fly) then the ADS must be constantly on watch for the KDS leaving the redline (almost certainly at the flight ceiling) while simultaneously keeping tabs on all ground threats (which extends for a 300m radius: FGs and large Rails being the prime culprits) and also actually attacking targets - all of which eats up concentration. An ADS thats drops it's awareness for ten seconds is likely to get rammed.
Point being that even the most basic of AV is not as awful as made out. A MLT Swarm with a half-awake mind behind it is more threatening than a PRO Swarm derping about in the open and waving to the pilot before opening fire. Then, the PRO Swarmer dedicated to doing the most damage possible (statistically and tactically) to vehicles is more than a handful: given the Delta ROF nerf, they are almost untouchable*.
(*Considering that typical ADS -> Swarm engagement range is between 50m-80m, which Swarms traverse in roughly 3-4s (unless someone can give me some solid numbers for speed and acceleration post-Delta?))
Bahirae Serugiusu wrote:I've seen more ADS pilots on the forums whining about AV then anything else lately.
And I've seen more trying to suggest reasonable changes and getting s*** on by AV players who want easy points.
Main of Kallas Hallytyr. ADS, Logistics, Scout, Commando and Assault.
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Halla Murr
Skullbreakers
43
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Posted - 2014.10.14 04:47:00 -
[37] - Quote
Which brings me to my next point...
Atiim wrote:The TTK of a Maxed Swarmer vs an ADS (assuming best fits) is:
- Python: 12.02s
- Incubus: 6.01s
*Assumes 0m away from Target
Notice that with a base speed of 50m/s, you can still escape the Swarmer's lock range in 3.5s, which is shorter than the TTK of any of the Dropships listed. The Incubus may be much more susceptible to Swarms than the Python, but I don't see how this is a problem considering how Swarm Launchers are Explosives (-20/+20). That would be like a Shield Tanker trying to take on a SCR head-on as opposed to attacking it by surprise and wondering why you keep dying.
First of all, those TTK's: interesting that the Python is more than twice as survivable, in terms of length of time. However, I must ask/point out: does that include the initial lock-on time? The first lock-on should (about 95% of the time) be ignored as, sort of like a Shotgun Cloaked Scout, the Swarmer is almost certain to launch unmolested. Consider then that the second volley is likely to have been locked during the flight time of the first, and you can knock 2.1s off the front of those numbers.
Secondly: the Python is so much more survivable due to the damage profiles and the way proficiency applies: an anti-armour weapon is inherently bad against a shield-tanked defender. As your analogy about the ScR/Shield Suit goes, why are Swarm users (more notably than Forge users) so intent on being so much more effective against all types of vehicles and not lobbying for the correct content to be added? Quite simply, Swarms are perfectly legitimate where they are: what they are not is the anti-shield weapon that needs to be introduced (ie, Gallente Heavy and Amarr Heavy/Light AV, as well as the Minmatar Heavy/Light AV.)
Swarms are plenty capable of destroying an Incubus if sufficiently skilled. By my maths, the ideal (ie, most dedicated) Swarm (Prof 5, MinCom 5, not including Damage Mods though) is doing 3880.8 armour damage with roughly 5-8 seconds of repping available.
Wiyrkomi/MinCom suit:
Base 1372.8/volley
vs Shield 1098.24
vs Armour 1647.36
w/ Prof 5 1884.464
1st Volley (1s travel, assumed from first-mover advantage, and not unreason): breaks shields; 91.834 armour damage
2nd Volley (2s travel time, +0.5s lock-on**): 1986.298 armour damage
3rd Volley: (4-5s travel time, +0.5s lock-on**): 3880.762 armour damage
3880.762 armour damage over roughly 5-8s. An Incubus must have 3881 armour, including 8 seconds worth of repair to survive the first three volleys. Assuming a 5s reload/re-lock window, that would give an ADS a roughly 13s long repair window.
(**Most of the lock-on time is considered during travel time of the previous volley.)
A sample fit for you:
ADV turret of choice (likely Missile, considering the current state of the game)
STD Afterburner
PRO 120mm Plate
PRO Light Armour Repairer
PRO PG Extension
= 4247 armour; 75 hp/s; 93.75 hp/s with max skill
= 5465.75 armour over the 13s repair window.
(= 5222 with no repair skill)
Assuming an additional 2s travel window, that's 5653.25.
The fourth volley produces a total of 5775.226 armour damage, enough to destroy the dropship. Considering that the above dropship fit costs 297,019 ISK. The following Commando fit costs 42,882 ISK (plus an additional low slot of choice) and outputs the above damage progression:
STD Minmatar Commando
PRO Swarm Launcher
STD Combat Rifle
1x PRO Damage Mod
X-3 Nanohive
1x Low slot module of choice
Honestly, that cost is fine, and so is the damage. What's not fine, is Swarms being considered 'too weak' versus Pythons. Let's consider the following fit versus the above Swarmer:
Python
ADV Turret
PRO Heavy Shield Extender
ADV Light Shield Booster
ADV Afterburner
PRO PG Extension
295,624 ISK
= 2873 Shields
= 4 second delay; 12 second depleted delay (8 second depleted delay with max skill)
= 960 Armour
1st: 1098.24
2nd: 2196.48
Shield Booster: 900 shields plus 2-3s of recharge (+/-1127): 1069.48
3rd: 2167.96
Again, is this unreasonable? This is exactly like the ScR/Shield analogy but backwards: Armour/ScR. What about the next volleys?
With the same 7s window (5s reload/re-lock; 2s travel) the Python recharges 1568 shields:
4th: 1698.2
5th: 2796.44 (76.56 remaining)
6th: 1762.398 armour damage.
Total TTK is between 20 and 30 seconds, depending on the travel times and user error/skill. TTK of the Swarmer is...hard to determine: unlike the Swarm, the Missile Turret requires the vehicle itself to align in specific ways whilst the impact of the Swarms themselves change that in unpredictable ways; mathematically, a MinCom will survive two splash damage hits from an ADV missile turret, dying to the third unless a direct hit is involved, which is around 3.6s. Not to mention the acquisition of the target and the positioning of the fight.
Enough rambling from me...I'll end with this:
Swarms are sufficiently powerful against an Incubus.
Swarms are sufficiently threatening against a Python, while being suboptimal once damage profiles are considered.
Main of Kallas Hallytyr. ADS, Logistics, Scout, Commando and Assault.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
3631
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Posted - 2014.10.14 20:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
I actually need to start testing the PLC against dropships soon
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
525
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Posted - 2014.10.14 20:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I actually need to start testing the PLC against dropships soon
Before people stop flying them? xD |
Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
4173
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Posted - 2014.10.14 20:58:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:XxGhazbaranxX wrote:... going 40-0 with a scout, a heavy or a logi as long as those damn ADS pilots aren't able to. It's a really hipocritical idea that ground troops will always stick to.
To be fair, anyone and everyone can shoot back at a Scout, Heavy or Logi. The same is true of vehicles, every single player has free unlimited swarm missiles. Every player has acess to installations, militia tanks with militia railguns, militia kamikazee ships, militia heavy suits and militia forge guns. SP cost 0 Anyone and everyone can shoot at vehicles.
This is how you make a post when you want your feedback disregarded.
If this is true, and a swarmer is coming at you, why do you shoot back with your HMG? I'm sure you can switch up in the middle of the firefight with ease. (Actually, unlike the infantry you're shooting, you really can switch yourself from a vehicle to infantry easily. You just jump out.)
The reality is, at any given time, most of the people on the field cannot shoot at you, but you can shoot at them. Trying to argue this point is completely non-constructive.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Dust User
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
835
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Posted - 2014.10.14 22:12:00 -
[41] - Quote
The ADS nerf has separated the pros from the scrubs. It's actually quite refreshing.
All this crying from these sub-par pilots while I watch Lions-Fan and Derrith still dropping 20+ kills in a PC. |
The True Inferno
Myrmidon Syndicate
74
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Posted - 2014.10.15 10:05:00 -
[42] - Quote
Miokai Zahou wrote:ADS is in a bad place at the moment as the time to kill is way too short and the rate of fire nerf didn't help either but I've gotten used to it.
What needs to be done is a little buff to the ADS ehp to reflect the swarm launcher increased effectiveness either that or an increase in the cpu/pg for better fitting.
Please note guys I'm infantry and an ADS pilot and believe me when I say SL is dumbs easy filthy PoS weapon for skilless players (me!) to go killing tanks/dropships.
All you need to do is aim, lock on and fire into the air three times before they even know what hit them then reload and so it again... just wow very easy mode.
I would much like a resistance bonus on the ADS's up type, like the old logi lavs or resistance modules pre1.7, it would make hp modules much more effective on an ADS.
ScP = GÖÑ
If you like chiptune
An Ace Pilot
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
233
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Posted - 2014.10.15 10:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:XxGhazbaranxX wrote:... going 40-0 with a scout, a heavy or a logi as long as those damn ADS pilots aren't able to. It's a really hipocritical idea that ground troops will always stick to.
To be fair, anyone and everyone can shoot back at a Scout, Heavy or Logi. The same is true of vehicles, every single player has free unlimited swarm missiles. Every player has acess to installations, militia tanks with militia railguns, militia kamikazee ships, militia heavy suits and militia forge guns. SP cost 0 Anyone and everyone can shoot at vehicles. This is how you make a post when you want your feedback disregarded. If this is true, and a swarmer is coming at you, why do you shoot back with your HMG? I'm sure you can switch up in the middle of the firefight with ease. (Actually, unlike the infantry you're shooting, you really can switch yourself from a vehicle to infantry easily. You just jump out.) The reality is, at any given time, most of the people on the field cannot shoot at you, but you can shoot at them. Trying to argue this point is completely non-constructive.
Jump out of a dropship with an HMG......
Sometimes i worry for you.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
233
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Posted - 2014.10.15 10:27:00 -
[44] - Quote
Dust User wrote:The ADS nerf has separated the pros from the scrubs. It's actually quite refreshing.
All this crying from these sub-par pilots while I watch Lions-Fan and Derrith still dropping 20+ kills in a PC.
I stole F.A. 's pilot (could ve been derrith not sure) Python in a PC by the way, and downed two more.
Man, stop the hero worship.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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Dust User
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
835
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Posted - 2014.10.15 13:21:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Dust User wrote:The ADS nerf has separated the pros from the scrubs. It's actually quite refreshing.
All this crying from these sub-par pilots while I watch Lions-Fan and Derrith still dropping 20+ kills in a PC. I stole F.A. 's pilot (could ve been derrith not sure) Python in a PC by the way, and downed two more. Man, stop the hero worship.
You remembering every time you shot him down shows how bad you are.
All I'm trying to say is that ADS aren't useless like a lot of these pilots want you to believe. |
Derrith Erador
Fatal Absolution
2869
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Posted - 2014.10.15 13:52:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:Dust User wrote:The ADS nerf has separated the pros from the scrubs. It's actually quite refreshing.
All this crying from these sub-par pilots while I watch Lions-Fan and Derrith still dropping 20+ kills in a PC. I stole F.A. 's pilot (could ve been derrith not sure) Python in a PC by the way, and downed two more. Man, stop the hero worship.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it wasn't you. The only person to ever steal one of my ADS in a PC was Yoshi. And even then, that wasn't much of an accomplishment on his end, my pilot suit has the protection of a bad condom.
And I'm definitely sure it wasn't me, because I've never seen you PC before.
Well, now that I got the war room spirit out of me, what the heck was this thread about again?
FAs official perv and lech. My dream is to turn 80 and become a dirty old man chasing skirts.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
233
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Posted - 2014.10.15 15:39:00 -
[47] - Quote
Derrith Erador wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:Dust User wrote:The ADS nerf has separated the pros from the scrubs. It's actually quite refreshing.
All this crying from these sub-par pilots while I watch Lions-Fan and Derrith still dropping 20+ kills in a PC. I stole F.A. 's pilot (could ve been derrith not sure) Python in a PC by the way, and downed two more. Man, stop the hero worship. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it wasn't you. The only person to ever steal one of my ADS in a PC was Yoshi. And even then, that wasn't much of an accomplishment on his end, my pilot suit has the protection of a bad condom. And I'm definitely sure it wasn't me, because I've never seen you PC before. Well, now that I got the war room spirit out of me, what the heck was this thread about again?
Meh, i wasn't sure if it was or wasn't you specifically, but i distinctly remember it was against FA, a pilot jumped out with the forge gunners he was planting on the roof , killed 'em, took the ship.
Anyways thread is about the usual things. Swarms OP vs Dropshipps, the usual trolls reacting they always do, more personal attacks instead of anything else.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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