DUST Search - Review for ADS post delta

Adipem Nothi wrote:

BrotherofHavok wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

BrotherofHavok wrote:

I know that ADS were originally too fast for swarms which is why the swarms got the buff that they did. However, currently the ADS are at a huge disadvantage. Their inability to heavily tank means that the ADS are far more likely to go down to a single swarm launcher.

Maybe it's just me, but if you see swarms they're guaranteed to hit you no matter what kind of evasive flying you do. Pythons are unable to resistance the missiles or forge enough and incubus may be able to armor rep tank enough to survive but chances are slim especially if there are multiple av users.

A single swarmer will consistently crash a Python only if said Python lingers after being hit 3x while the Swarmer reloads (idiot pilot) or if the Python is hit by a second AV source (teamwork).

Are you sure? A few times that my python was taken own was due to a single swarm launcher and i'm not sure if he/she had to reload. As for being an idiot and sitting there i might be accused of doing so but that's only for the first shot. Most of the time the swarm launcher player and the swarms themselves won't become visible (latency issues) until after they hit me and they'll usually do about 1000 points of damage or more to my shields with just the 1 set of 4 swarms. The 2nd set is sure to hit me because i'm just pulling away and the 3rd set is almost sure to hit as well as long as there isn't any kind of lock on issues plaguing the enemy player.

No offense intended. Assuming optimal conditions, a clever swarmer may get 3 volleys onto target even if the pilot responds when first struck. The "idiot" in this scenario is the pilot who gets hit with those 3 volleys, then lingers about while the swarmer reloads, relocks and proceeds to place a 4th volley. The majority of Pythons I've encountered require 4+ volleys. Whether or not all Pythons require 4+ volleys I cannot say.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 305	Posted - 2014.09.26 04:05:00 - [1] - Quote Here is my background in Dust. 35million Lifetime skills points focused in on ADS (Python) maxed out, Proto Anti-Vehicle fits (Swarms, Proxy, Forges), Proto Assault (caldari and rail rifles), Proto Commando (gallente with AR and PLC), and ADV Scout (caldari). Also I have a lot of experiance with milita vehicles with plenty of kills with my 20G Railgun and Sica Blaster tanks. overall I feel I am pretty diverse in dust and have been playing for quite some time. My opinion: I feel that ADS is not "useless" but its in my experiance after losing tons of ADS in a few days, I feel that ADS is too weak for the current changes in Delta Patch. Here is my reasoning. 1) PRE-DELTA Anti-Vehicle Advantages that need to taken into account. AV players have several advantages that ADS pilots do not have such as the First movers advantage. We have all see plenty of evidence of rendering issues between infantry and airborne combat, which gives the AV an immediate advantage over the ADS. The AV player will always be able to fire of 1 volley and start his/her 2nd volley before the ADS pilot has identified his position due to rendering. They also have War points that ADS pilots do not get, which is a huge advantage as it give the squad tons of points to their orbitals. AV players are rewarded 75 points based on damage scaling which ADS does not get those kinds of points. Not only that the scaling on War points is vastly different... AV gets War Points based on Assists (50 WP), destruction, (150 WP), kills (per 50 WP), Damages scale (75 WP) and Intel (15 WP). While ADS only gets Assists (25 WP), Kills (per 50 WP), Vehicle Kill Assist (35 WP) and Intel (15 WP) Note: This is a scenario revolving around AV vs ADS (The AV player is not involved within Vehicles as he cannot use his AV equipment until he leaves his vehicle so Vehicle damage or destruction does not play into account in these numbers. AV players also have advantages of AI Installation support, its may seem silly but I have witness plenty of turning tides where an AI installation gets a few shots or damages a ADS a few times allowing the destruction of that vehicle. AV players also have advantages in the terrain, where players can use peek a boo tactics within buildings or bridges to hurt ADS players (again rendering and War points play additional advantages). ADS pilots cannot hide withing compounds as the walls do massive amounts of damage if they are so much as tap them, Though the ADS can gain altitude or retreat to red line the ADS has to deal with first movers advantage again to re-engage target he/she was firing at previously. Granted ADS can Lock down a Compound once within fire support range which enemies are rending and is in superior fire position but Tanks and even a well place Turret mounted LAV can do the exact same thing, so how can these vehicles used in tactical situations not be held equally accountable as the ADS? Finally AV players have a much larger target to fire upon that ADS pilots have, and this is because of how the ADS functions. A Single Infantry Unit is 1/9th the size of a Dropship, which with higher altitude (assume that player has rendering in) is even smaller from the ADS point of view. The AV's see a much larger target to spot plus the first movers advantage that AV players have over ADS pilot. 2) POST DELTA Anti-Vehicle Advantages - Note: all advantages Pre-Delta are still present Swarm buffs have allowed a stronger destructive game against ADS with increase Speed, acceleration and with the additions to nerfing the After Burner ( I think is a smart move given Swarms always were effective at nullifying and area denying ADS but not destroying, I always felt that Forge Guns and Railguns did very effective jobs destroying an ADS but swarms needed abit of buffing) The Lower ROF for Turrets (Missle's and Railgun's) for on Racial ADS have left drive by shooting to be substantially less effective than PRE-DELTA. So hit and run tactics for ADS is not an options as rendering prevents ADS pilots from see what needs to be shot leaving them to shoot blindly with a low ROF as they cannot splash damage a wide area to combat the first movers advantage. So essentially ADS cannot do Hit and Run tactics, nor can they stay stationary to allow rendering to rend in the AV players as they will lose to first movers advantage, Swarms buffs, and After Burner nerfing. (I completely disagree with ROF nerfing as I felt that it was not the true problem to ADS being so powerful PRE-DELTA. I felt that ADS was too powerful due to the bug which allow bonus python skills to stack. For me, Denying or Destroying Solo ADS pilots PRE-Delta was not a huge problem, but the additional side gunner getting the bonus for each pilots skill in the ADS allow for a devastating vehicle that was needing to be addressed. This was the wrong way to fix that issue.)
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 305	Posted - 2014.09.26 04:12:00 - [2] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: That almost sounds like a Swarmer had advantage over an ADS! Pre-Delta, you say!? Boggles the mind how ADS didn't drop like flies. Quite the opposite, in fact. But that can't be. AV had so many advantages. :: scratches head :: granted these are advantages that needed to be taken into account during the nerf. Not advantages that make AV superior to ADS
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 305	Posted - 2014.09.26 04:15:00 - [3] - Quote additionally I wanted to include that Data and Numbers are a great source of information and even a better tool for predicting future outcomes. Unfortunately, Data is not a perfect tool to predict future outcomes as it is based on real world events which have multiple variables but only give us the information to predict a perfect world outcome. For example I suspect Data collect around ADS pilots are slightly inaccurate due to the side gunners getting additional bonus for multiple pilots within a single drop ship. That the True Data revolving around a single pilot within a ADS is slightly above balance which would have been more deserving of a lighter touch on the ROF nerfing. If the side gunners bonus have been address (still need to test that) than those numbers and data collected around ADS would probably give ADS a more proper re-balancing than get a heavy nerf stick.
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 309	Posted - 2014.09.26 14:49:00 - [4] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: The problem with these "advantages", is that they're all inferior advantages to everything ADSes have in their favor, but Minor Treat didn't feel like listing all of those. ;) on the contrary I ran out of room on the post :p. Also All the advantages for the ADS is common knowledge to everyone as they are no gameplay mechanics thats unique to ADS advantages (Also that bug where pilots skills stack is an advantage ADS had but everyone knew it needed to be fixed and I included it in my list) . All the advantages the ADS has is similar to that of Tanks or well mounted LAV, with the exception that they fly. Everyone knows that they can escape battle zones by flying away, can suppress infantry and ground Vehicle Units, and transport friendlies from point A to Point B. Anti-Vehicle in the other hand have distinct advantages that are unique to ADS as it can only occurs to that of airborne vehicles. Rendering issues are not nearly as much of an issue for ground vehicles as it is for Airborne vehicles. Collision Damage is also a unique disadvantage to Airborne Vehicles. Everything I listed is specific issue revolving around ADS that needed to be taken into account during the nerf. Granted pre-Delta AV Swarms had difficult time destroying ADS but its was the Swarm alone that struggled not AV. Thats why the only AV that got buffed was the Swarm Launcher. So that means Pre Delta all the other options for AV were effective at destroying ADS but how does ADS get a nerfing while a Buffing to Swarms to balance out the game? Several AV players used Swarms as their primary AV but AV players with tons of experiance battle vehicle use various AV (Forge, Railgun, installations, ect), as a result it has become a one sided arguments without all the variables taken into account.
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 309	Posted - 2014.09.26 15:30:00 - [5] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Minor Treat, swarms needed a buff because they were ineffective. ADS needed a nerf because they were globally too effective. Swarms were ineffective I can agree with this. but ADS were only too effective because of the stacking bonus as I explained in the previous post. Its my theory that the data collect on ADS is inaccurate due to the skill stacking of sidegunners, not the pilots themselves.
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 309	Posted - 2014.09.26 15:46:00 - [6] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Minor Treat wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Minor Treat, swarms needed a buff because they were ineffective. ADS needed a nerf because they were globally too effective. Swarms were ineffective I can agree with this. but ADS were only too effective because of the stacking bonus as I explained in the previous post. Its my theory that the data collect on ADS is inaccurate due to the skill stacking of sidegunners, not the pilots themselves. When shooting down ADS I have found three-man ADS to be DEEPLY in the minority. You can count the bodies that fall out while the ADS crashes. Its not a popular tactics but I have gone ten times more damage with a multiple piloted dropship than single pilots dropship. two manned dropship is actually slightly more common but regardless of how common it is, the damage output from sidegunners is tremedious which has an effect on the data collected.
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 309	Posted - 2014.09.26 16:31:00 - [7] - Quote THEPIMP NAMED SLICKBACK wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Plasma cannon is bonused for shields. Have you ever seen some use a plasma cannon for av I use it all the time for av, I included it as part of my commando suit in my background for my original post. Having all the additional damage bonus for my Gallente Commando makes my PLC a deadly weapon for infantry and Vehicles alike.
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 309	Posted - 2014.09.26 16:47:00 - [8] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: THEPIMP NAMED SLICKBACK wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Plasma cannon is bonused for shields. Have you ever seen some use a plasma cannon for av Have you SEEN how the plasma cannon works now??? It's amazing! Unless you're shooting it at infantry. Used to be, you could adjust aim such that arc would account for target distance. Now, it either hits the target or whizzes by him. I have no problem using the PLC in Delta granted it could be a bit of a learning curve with the near projectile speed of the PLC. But I use my PLC against heavy suits which one hit kill them, or splash damage those medium and light suits hiding behind cover.
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 312	Posted - 2014.09.28 17:10:00 - [9] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: BrotherofHavok wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: BrotherofHavok wrote: I know that ADS were originally too fast for swarms which is why the swarms got the buff that they did. However, currently the ADS are at a huge disadvantage. Their inability to heavily tank means that the ADS are far more likely to go down to a single swarm launcher. Maybe it's just me, but if you see swarms they're guaranteed to hit you no matter what kind of evasive flying you do. Pythons are unable to resistance the missiles or forge enough and incubus may be able to armor rep tank enough to survive but chances are slim especially if there are multiple av users. A single swarmer will consistently crash a Python only if said Python lingers after being hit 3x while the Swarmer reloads (idiot pilot) or if the Python is hit by a second AV source (teamwork). Are you sure? A few times that my python was taken own was due to a single swarm launcher and i'm not sure if he/she had to reload. As for being an idiot and sitting there i might be accused of doing so but that's only for the first shot. Most of the time the swarm launcher player and the swarms themselves won't become visible (latency issues) until after they hit me and they'll usually do about 1000 points of damage or more to my shields with just the 1 set of 4 swarms. The 2nd set is sure to hit me because i'm just pulling away and the 3rd set is almost sure to hit as well as long as there isn't any kind of lock on issues plaguing the enemy player. No offense intended. Assuming optimal conditions, a clever swarmer may get 3 volleys onto target even if the pilot responds when first struck. The "idiot" in this scenario is the pilot who gets hit with those 3 volleys, then lingers about while the swarmer reloads, relocks and proceeds to place a 4th volley. The majority of Pythons I've encountered require 4+ volleys. Whether or not all Pythons require 4+ volleys I cannot say. well if it takes four volleys than you are either using a basic or militia swarm launcher. advance swarms either destroy or damn near destroy ADS, Proto Swarms are a going to kill a python is three shots unless he is hardened or using boosters shields. In those cases he had properly manage his modules to increase his survival.
Minor Treat The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 312	Posted - 2014.09.28 18:07:00 - [10] - Quote wripple wrote: All the more proof that this once promising game's biggest fault is the simple fact that its key developers do not play it, or at least not nearly enough to justify producing it. What we have are professional starship makers giving us an FPS that is ultimately the same dry game we've been playing for almost 3 years now. everything will be okay my mercenary buddy (patting on the back) we all know this but we are still here though. Its like being abused except we like it.