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Boosting/derateing WP payout by mu ratio.

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Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2243	Posted - 2014.09.24 14:49:00 - [1] - Quote Since CCP Rattati has mentioned that the DUST team is going to be looking at WP & the cancerous passive in-match sp payouts aaaand we have been looking for a holisic way to separate the monstrous noob-destroying protovets from our tender new players..... What do peeps think about multiplying WP payouts for kills & assists ~~but~~ by the ratio of the two player's -¦ scores? e.g., if i kill 13ear i get approx 325 WP and if he kills me he gets approx 12 WP because of our relative -¦ scores. Thoughts? PSN: RationalSpark
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 193	Posted - 2014.09.24 14:57:00 - [2] - Quote No no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2243	Posted - 2014.09.24 14:58:00 - [3] - Quote Also....this is a situation where looking at the two player's relative gear metalevels makes sense and could also be use to modify payouts. e.g.: if i kill a protoscrub while wearing my sver logi i get 50% more WP but if he kills me he gets 50% less. PSN: RationalSpark
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2243	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:02:00 - [4] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: No You probably mean YES...when peeps don't provide arguments it usually indicates they're protecting hidden motives ;) PSN: RationalSpark
Heimdallr69 Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 3669	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:03:00 - [5] - Quote So we should get **** for WP and shouldn't bother playing anymore.. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3380	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:05:00 - [6] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: What do peeps think about multiplying WP payouts for kills & assists ~~but~~ by the ratio of the two player's -¦ scores? e.g., if i kill 13ear I get approx 325 WP and if he kills me he gets approx 12 WP because of our relative -¦ scores. Thoughts? If matchmaking / squad balancing is working correctly, you should be placed in matches with other mercs who are close to your mu score anyway. This just adds complication without adding depth. TL;DR - No. He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2243	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:07:00 - [7] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: So we should get **** for WP and shouldn't bother playing anymore.. Depends who you're fighting, i suppose. The two mechanics proposed work together. High -¦ players could up their WP payout in pubs by running lower meta gear. We could calibrate payouts such that if a player of any meta was to run standard gear they'd be guaranteed full WP payouts. PSN: RationalSpark
REDBACK96USMC Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 63	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:07:00 - [8] - Quote I have no problems with them increasing the amount of base SP a new player has to spend to begin with. They did it in Eve to give the noobs an little pep in their step. Couldn't hurt anything here either. Leave the isk alone though. Force them to finish academy and run a few pub matches before they can afford the skillbooks. Will help them choose where to spend that SP.
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 195	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:11:00 - [9] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: So we should get **** for WP and shouldn't bother playing anymore.. Depends who you're fighting, i suppose. The two mechanics proposed work together. High -¦ players could up their WP payout in pubs by running lower meta gear. We could calibrate payouts such that if a player of any meta was to run standard gear they'd be guaranteed full WP payouts. Seems like a limitation without a problem...why do this at all..would just punish all older players and kill the game faster no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
hold that Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 267	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:11:00 - [10] - Quote Yeah F-that. Why should someone who's been playing longer be penalized? That's a sorry way to bridge SP gap. NOOBS MUST: 1 GET GOOD 2 RUN IN SQUADS 3 DEDICATE THEMSELVES TO ONE ROLE 4 RAISE ALL CORES 5 STOP COMPLAINING AND LOOK AT # 1

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2243	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:12:00 - [11] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: What do peeps think about multiplying WP payouts for kills & assists ~~but~~ by the ratio of the two player's -¦ scores? e.g., if i kill 13ear I get approx 325 WP and if he kills me he gets approx 12 WP because of our relative -¦ scores. Thoughts? If matchmaking / squad balancing is working correctly, you should be placed in matches with other mercs who are close to your mu score anyway. This just adds complication without adding depth. TL;DR - No. The -¦ score of players varies considerably in a match, what we're really balancing is teams, not individual -¦. This would meat that a high -¦ player or squad would have to step up and face the tough guys on the other team for full wp payout. But that's really what you'd do anyway if you were trying to win the match: protect your blueberries. PSN: RationalSpark
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3380	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:20:00 - [12] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: The -¦ score of players varies considerably in a match, what we're really balancing is teams, not individual -¦. This would meat that a high -¦ player or squad would have to step up and face the tough guys on the other team for full wp payout. But that's really what you'd do anyway if you were trying to win the match: protect your blueberries. How do you address the issue of knowing what mu score you are firing at? How would a new player even know if the player he was blasting was a veteran or another new player like him? Also, you are insane if you think this will slow veterans from killing new players. In fact, given the New Eden universe, I bet there would be some vets who would go out of their way to pulverize players with a lower mu score. Side note: I am fairly certain that we are placed in matches with players who have mu scores close to ours. I know the word "close" isn't very scientific, but we probably not given the brackets for matches on purpose. He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2243	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:21:00 - [13] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: So we should get **** for WP and shouldn't bother playing anymore.. Depends who you're fighting, i suppose. The two mechanics proposed work together. High -¦ players could up their WP payout in pubs by running lower meta gear. We could calibrate payouts such that if a player of any meta was to run standard gear they'd be guaranteed full WP payouts. Seems like a limitation without a problem...why do this at all..would just punish all older players and kill the game faster The primary motivating factor is the NPE in DUST. The draconian solution is to separate players but that's a bad suggestion because it isolates players and denies them the opportunity to learn from better players. So the question is how do we keep highly experienced protogeared squads and militia/std noobs in the same matches? High -¦ Players are rightfully reacting to reduced WP payouts, so let's put a floor on the system: WP payouts based on delta -¦ can't go below 40 WP for kills and 20 WP for assists. Does that sound more reasonable? PSN: RationalSpark
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2243	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:23:00 - [14] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: The -¦ score of players varies considerably in a match, what we're really balancing is teams, not individual -¦. This would meat that a high -¦ player or squad would have to step up and face the tough guys on the other team for full wp payout. But that's really what you'd do anyway if you were trying to win the match: protect your blueberries. How do you address the issue of knowing what mu score you are firing at? How would a new player even know if the player he was blasting was a veteran or another new player like him? Also, you are insane if you think this will slow veterans from killing new players. In fact, given the New Eden universe, I bet there would be some vets who would go out of their way to pulverize players with a lower mu score. Side note: I am fairly certain that we are placed in matches with players who have mu scores close to ours. I know the word "close" isn't very scientific, but we probably not given the brackets for matches on purpose. You don't know -¦, but every experienced player in this game immediately recognizes a tough fight when they see one. PSN: RationalSpark
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 3381	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:29:00 - [15] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: You don't know -¦, but every experienced player in this game immediately recognizes a tough fight when they see one. And if they are smart, they will avoid the tough fight and go for the easy prey. Taking the path of least resistance is human nature. Proof of concept: I blap TitanaticPowerNine with my ScR: KILL +15 "Ha. Newberry..." I see him again. I will still kill him... probably very easily... as he is a new player: KILL +15 Has this reduction of WP's kept me from killing him? No. He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 195	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:36:00 - [16] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: So we should get **** for WP and shouldn't bother playing anymore.. Depends who you're fighting, i suppose. The two mechanics proposed work together. High -¦ players could up their WP payout in pubs by running lower meta gear. We could calibrate payouts such that if a player of any meta was to run standard gear they'd be guaranteed full WP payouts. Seems like a limitation without a problem...why do this at all..would just punish all older players and kill the game faster The primary motivating factor is the NPE in DUST. The draconian solution is to separate players but that's a bad suggestion because it isolates players and denies them the opportunity to learn from better players. So the question is how do we keep highly experienced protogeared squads and militia/std noobs in the same matches? High -¦ Players are rightfully reacting to reduced WP payouts, so let's put a floor on the system: WP payouts based on delta -¦ can't go below 40 WP for kills and 20 WP for assists. Does that sound more reasonable? the solution is to increase the scrubs time in scrub academy..and boost starting sp..not put in a factor that ruins the gameplay for everyone who has suffered and stuck with dust no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Echo 1991 WarRavens Capital Punishment. 442	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:37:00 - [17] - Quote hold that wrote: Yeah F-that. Why should someone who's been playing longer be penalized? That's a sorry way to bridge SP gap. NOOBS MUST: 1 GET GOOD 2 RUN IN SQUADS 3 DEDICATE THEMSELVES TO ONE ROLE 4 RAISE ALL CORES 5 STOP COMPLAINING AND LOOK AT # 1 While 3 of the 5 points are right, the problem new players have is that they get stomped and can't do anything about it. They don't have the sp or the know how either. Like what is a noob gonna do against a full proto gal scout that he can't see but can see him as long as he is within passive range? Sure he could manage to kill him but I wouldn't put money on it.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2243	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:37:00 - [18] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: You don't know -¦, but every experienced player in this game immediately recognizes a tough fight when they see one. And if they are smart, they will avoid the tough fight and go for the easy prey. Taking the path of least resistance is human nature. Proof of concept: I blap TitanaticPowerNine with my ScR: KILL +15 "Ha. Newberry..." I see him again. I will still kill him... probably very easily... as he is a new player: KILL +15 Has this reduction of WP's kept me from killing him? No. On the other hand, the newberry, who is going to perform no better or worse than they do now, will end up ahead in terms of WP. I'd call that a win. Also don't know if you saw it, but i modified the original suggestion so the payout doesn't go too low for vets. Will modify the OP. PSN: RationalSpark
SILENT GIANT FATHERS-AND-SONS 99	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:46:00 - [19] - Quote I kinda like the idea, I see it as If your running around in proto gear, shooting a militia blueberry Is of no more value than shooting an uplink. It would slow the farming/taking advantage of the fresh recruits, and re-direct the effort to playing the game like it was meant. But if that blue berry managed to out wit someone much stronger than him/her they should get a better reward. Tailoring points per kill to suit strength. Obviously if you ask a protostomper if they are ok getting less points for shooting bunnies theyre gonna react negatively. I guess they need the esteem booster. Really, you think you actually earned that kill when I run around in a cheap militia fit and your crew of stompers keeps mowing me down? On the flip side if I manage to outwit said proto squad, hell yea I earned that kill, and a larger payout would be fair. I'm pretty sure I read in Delta, that Academy is gonna be 2x as long so it should help. Matchmaking by meta wont really work if you swap to different grade suits in match. And I'll try to find a link to my "can't balance a blueberrry" thread cause there is just things in a pub match you cant really balance i.e. dumbberries/trolls/ etc. Sometimes I think you get thrown in with whoever cause they're the only other people online playing at that time. All this and I created my alt over weekend and have been sitting on my SP and the matches I get into are still fair/fun with such a low level character. I still see familiar names, so I know I'm going up against decent players. The two main factors are get used to controls/setting, learn the maps. If you know how to play FPS games the learning curve isn't that bad. This is a pretty competitive game and I like it for that reason. You can still screw off just dont waste your isk doing so or at least dont complain about it. Its not easy kill-o-duty. I'd hate to see it turned into that.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2243	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:46:00 - [20] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: So we should get **** for WP and shouldn't bother playing anymore.. Depends who you're fighting, i suppose. The two mechanics proposed work together. High -¦ players could up their WP payout in pubs by running lower meta gear. We could calibrate payouts such that if a player of any meta was to run standard gear they'd be guaranteed full WP payouts. Seems like a limitation without a problem...why do this at all..would just punish all older players and kill the game faster The primary motivating factor is the NPE in DUST. The draconian solution is to separate players but that's a bad suggestion because it isolates players and denies them the opportunity to learn from better players. So the question is how do we keep highly experienced protogeared squads and militia/std noobs in the same matches? High -¦ Players are rightfully reacting to reduced WP payouts, so let's put a floor on the system: WP payouts based on delta -¦ can't go below 40 WP for kills and 20 WP for assists. Does that sound more reasonable? the solution is to increase the scrubs time in scrub academy..and boost starting sp..not put in a factor that ruins the gameplay for everyone who has suffered and stuck with dust The academy can only do so much - it's primary value is to provide a less harsh environment where new peeps can learn systems, weapons etc. in lieu of having an actual tutorial. There is nothing in the academy that will prepare players, over any length of time, for what they will encounter in public matches. You don't think 40 WP is enough payout for killing a 400 hp noob who doesn't know what passive scan means? PSN: RationalSpark

Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 197	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:51:00 - [21] - Quote Seems like a limitation without a problem...why do this at all..would just punish all older players and kill the game faster [/quote] The primary motivating factor is the NPE in DUST. The draconian solution is to separate players but that's a bad suggestion because it isolates players and denies them the opportunity to learn from better players. So the question is how do we keep highly experienced protogeared squads and militia/std noobs in the same matches? High -¦ Players are rightfully reacting to reduced WP payouts, so let's put a floor on the system: WP payouts based on delta -¦ can't go below 40 WP for kills and 20 WP for assists. Does that sound more reasonable?[/quote] the solution is to increase the scrubs time in scrub academy..and boost starting sp..not put in a factor that ruins the gameplay for everyone who has suffered and stuck with dust[/quote] The academy can only do so much - it's primary value is to provide a less harsh environment where new peeps can learn systems, weapons etc. in lieu of having an actual tutorial. There is nothing in the academy that will prepare players, over any length of time, for what they will encounter in public matches. You don't think 40 WP is enough payout for killing a 400 hp noob who doesn't know what passive scan means?[/quote] no i think the idea in general is one of idiocy no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Maiden selena MORTIMOR Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 197	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:53:00 - [22] - Quote look its not our fault the bottom of the fps barrel is the new players of dust..i have seen the most stupid gamers in this game that i have ever witnessed...nothing can really account for that and blame does not lie with the few die hard dust fans that actually know how to play an fps no im not a mortedeamor alt..im her slave When my master is banned I represent her wishes and that of the Mortimor famil
Michael Arck 5751	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:57:00 - [23] - Quote I dont see why the more seasoned should get less. Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 114	Posted - 2014.09.24 16:06:00 - [24] - Quote When was the last time you stopped to see who and what your shooting at before you engage unless your a cloaked and damped scout? Most of us shoot first and ask questions later because other wise your dead. The only way this may help is to discourage players from trolling the edges of the map looking for easy prey. But then again they are looking for easy prey so the lower WP prolly won't bother them. So I think it may have marginal affects to benefit new players but not enough to be worth the effort. The Best Worst game you can't stop playing..... DUST
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2243	Posted - 2014.09.24 16:25:00 - [25] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: When was the last time you stopped to see who and what your shooting at before you engage unless your a cloaked and damped scout? Most of us shoot first and ask questions later because other wise your dead. The only way this may help is to discourage players from trolling the edges of the map looking for easy prey. But then again they are looking for easy prey so the lower WP prolly won't bother them. So I think it may have marginal affects to benefit new players but not enough to be worth the effort. I dunno, when i go in alone against The Infected One and cS4RT i know i'm doing a foolish thing, but i'm doing it for a reason like we need the point or we lose by cloning, etc. With what i've proposed, vets will notice very little difference over a match, maybe 20% less WP if they're pure killers and don't put down uplinks or rez teammates. Any vet who does these support things prolly will only notice a 10% decrease, and if they're willing to get out of their proto gear they won't notice any difference at all. I really don't understand where the tears are coming from. But noobs will notice a difference, prolly a big one unless they are some kind of god of FPSs. This proposal might just get vets out of pubs and into FW or PC for the improved WP payout/combat experience. Also, this system i'm proposing should only apply to pubs. PSN: RationalSpark
Joe Macro Acme.Taco 19	Posted - 2014.09.24 17:49:00 - [26] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: [quote=Vrain Matari]The -¦ score of players varies considerably in a match, what we're really balancing is teams, not individual -¦. Also, you are insane if you think this will slow veterans from killing new players. In fact, given the New Eden universe, I bet there would be some vets who would go out of their way to pulverize players with a lower mu score. Yes, they certainly will. One of my first matches after matchmaking deployed I ran into a mostly Nyian San squad. All running AUR weps and suits and they tore us up. I suspected they were vets running on low skill alts just to wreak havoc on low skill players.
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1937	Posted - 2014.09.24 18:15:00 - [27] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Since CCP Rattati has mentioned that the DUST team is going to be looking at WP & the cancerous passive in-match sp payouts aaaand we have been looking for a holisic way to separate the monstrous noob-destroying protovets from our tender new players..... What do peeps think about multiplying WP payouts for kills & assists ~~but~~ by the ratio of the two player's -¦ scores? e.g., if i kill 13ear i get approx 325 WP and ~~if he kills me he gets approx 12 WP because of our relative -¦ scores~~. Edit for modification: Minimum WP payout for ultra-mu players 40 WP per kill, 20 WP for assist. Thoughts? Addition from post # 3 below: Vrain Matari wrote: Also....this is a situation where looking at the two player's relative gear metalevels makes sense and could also be used to modify payouts. e.g.: if i kill a protoscrub while wearing my sver logi i get 50% more WP but if he kills me he gets 50% less. Why would an employer of mercenaries pay his best employees the worst money? Not to mention all good players would immediately dump the game.
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1937	Posted - 2014.09.24 18:20:00 - [28] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: What do peeps think about multiplying WP payouts for kills & assists ~~but~~ by the ratio of the two player's -¦ scores? e.g., if i kill 13ear I get approx 325 WP and if he kills me he gets approx 12 WP because of our relative -¦ scores. Thoughts? If matchmaking / squad balancing is working correctly, you should be placed in matches with other mercs who are close to your mu score anyway. The 'matchmaker' (actually just a team balancer) does not place similar mu mercs in the same battles. It just takes the first 32 mercs that come along and assigns them to teams based on their mus.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2244	Posted - 2014.09.24 20:39:00 - [29] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Since CCP Rattati has mentioned that the DUST team is going to be looking at WP & the cancerous passive in-match sp payouts aaaand we have been looking for a holisic way to separate the monstrous noob-destroying protovets from our tender new players..... What do peeps think about multiplying WP payouts for kills & assists ~~but~~ by the ratio of the two player's -¦ scores? e.g., if i kill 13ear i get approx 325 WP and ~~if he kills me he gets approx 12 WP because of our relative -¦ scores~~. Edit for modification: Minimum WP payout for ultra-mu players 40 WP per kill, 20 WP for assist. Thoughts? Addition from post # 3 below: Vrain Matari wrote: Also....this is a situation where looking at the two player's relative gear metalevels makes sense and could also be used to modify payouts. e.g.: if i kill a protoscrub while wearing my sver logi i get 50% more WP but if he kills me he gets 50% less. Why would an employer of mercenaries pay his best employees the worst money? Not to mention all good players would immediately dump the game. By the same token an employer of mercenaries wouldn't pay his best employees to spend his time in the mess tent washing pots and pans. He'd send him after the big dogs on the other side mowing down the troops. And from the baseline cap proposed above the max hit to wp is 20% at worst, prolly much less for the vast majority of high mu players, whereas the newer player will be getting a hell of an incentive to try harder. PSN: RationalSpark
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4374	Posted - 2014.09.24 20:51:00 - [30] - Quote I think it should be based upon the gear the player is wearing and less on the SP of the players. So if a long term vet is trying to challenge himself by running starter fits and killing newer players with enough SP to have proto suits, then that vet should get the greater WP for having a greater challenge. This would also affect new players who don't have enough skill for higher tier items, as they could get more WP for those proto bear kills. I don't think vets should be outright nerfed, especially if they are not proto stomping. You can always tell a Millford Minja



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