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Crimson ShieId Psygod9 918	Posted - 2014.09.23 01:24:00 - [1] - Quote I was under the impression the issues with the ADS revolved around the skill stacking glitch and the afterburners/speed of swarms. As such, I'm a bit confused as to why the operation (?) skill is being nerfed (Caldari/Gallente Assault Dropship skills) Don't get me wrong, I absolutely despise the ADS, their ability to rocket away and out of range at the moment of taking damage has bugged me for a very long time, but I don't get this nerf. Yes, the ADS can be effective at AV or AI, depending on their turret, but I don't believe they need this particular nerf. I run into these things quite often, I've had them harassing my militia tank and Gorgon before, preventing me from going places (Such as rooftops to kill snipers) and such, but I've never really felt like the turrets on them have been OP (Outside the stacking glitch of course). I'm not a pilot myself, I fly militia to get to where I need to go and that's it, so I'm not certain of exactly how much SP needs to be invested, but given it's an 8X skill and starts at 49K, I know it's quite expensive. Going against ADS pilots on a regular basis, driving them away with forge guns, occasionally ramming, whatever I can manage at the time, I've never gotten the impression that they needed this kind of nerf and I believe this is one of those cases where too many things are being changed at once. As the blaster is not an effective AI weapon, rails and missiles are the only option for dropships to engage infantry, and cutting down the rate of fire on these severely limits their (what I consider) already limited AI purposes and even AV purposes (It's tough to fly above someone, keeping your ship steady while aiming down through your vehicle at a target you might not even be able to see and shooting down on them while they try to get away) I know I'm not the only one that feels this nerf is a bit excessive, and without the numbers to look over, all I can think of is that this will hurt the ADS functionality a bit too much and is an unnecessary nerf towards something that, while not balanced at the moment due to outrunning one of the two types of AV capable of hitting and killing it, is not in need of such a heavy nerf. I'd hope that this could be reconsidered, or the nerf not be as excessive, perhaps even wait till the next hotfix to see how the swarm speed changes things. I have no doubt that the ADS will still remain a powerful force no matter which way the nerf goes, as will any DS when piloted with skill and in possession of good gunners, but due to the current aiming mechanics of the ADS, I do not feel this nerf is necessary. Nova Knives are best sidearm.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1795	Posted - 2014.09.23 01:42:00 - [2] - Quote The Nerf is excessive and pointless, but my big problem is the lack of discussion about it. I never even heard about nerfing the ROF until the notes came out. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Crimson ShieId Psygod9 918	Posted - 2014.09.23 01:43:00 - [3] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: The Nerf is excessive and pointless, but my big problem is the lack of discussion about it. I never even heard about nerfing the ROF until the notes came out. I knew they wanted to do something about that stacking penalty, but that was it, so I guess we're in the same boat there. Nova Knives are best sidearm.
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 281	Posted - 2014.09.23 02:00:00 - [4] - Quote Eh. My Scrambler Pistol got nerfed harder than anything ever (43% RoF Nerf), for no reason other than "its going to outperform these clearly **** pistols we're adding in 1.8, we should just make it ** like than instead of releasing usable weapons." I was hopeful that they would fix it in Delta, and give me a reason to take my PS3 out of the crawlspace. They didn't. They actually went and nerfed it some more. Just do want I did. Quit.
The Master Race Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 20	Posted - 2014.09.23 02:17:00 - [5] - Quote Since almost everyone uses ads to frag mercs often putting 30 personal kills on the board is prolly the reason. I am just guessing, but would imagine they were meant as support and not the meat grinder they turned out to be. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 167	Posted - 2014.09.23 03:09:00 - [6] - Quote The Master Race wrote: Since almost everyone uses ads to frag mercs often putting 30 personal kills on the board is prolly the reason. I am just guessing, but would imagine they were meant as support and not the meat grinder they turned out to be. No theyre meant for killing thats why theyre called assault dropships . Shitbird
Crimson ShieId Psygod9 919	Posted - 2014.09.23 03:25:00 - [7] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Eh. My Scrambler Pistol got nerfed harder than anything ever (43% RoF Nerf), for no reason other than "its going to outperform these clearly **** pistols we're adding in 1.8, we should just make it ** like than instead of releasing usable weapons." I was hopeful that they would fix it in Delta, and give me a reason to take my PS3 out of the crawlspace. They didn't. They actually went and nerfed it some more. Just do want I did. Quit. I thought the ScP's ROF was being buffed back up? Nova Knives are best sidearm.
CommanderBolt TerranProtossZerg 1709	Posted - 2014.09.23 04:03:00 - [8] - Quote You see you could argue that we have this problem that having additional mercs along in vehicles doesn't offer any substantial benefit (barring pilot stacking) hence everyone goes solo in vehicles hence all of these compounded issues. How about we start incentivising having gunners in ADS and having gunners in Tanks instead of "oh you want gunners? your going to be a paper bag then" -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7788	Posted - 2014.09.23 04:05:00 - [9] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Eh. My Scrambler Pistol got nerfed harder than anything ever (43% RoF Nerf), for no reason other than "its going to outperform these clearly **** pistols we're adding in 1.8, we should just make it ** like than instead of releasing usable weapons." I was hopeful that they would fix it in Delta, and give me a reason to take my PS3 out of the crawlspace. They didn't. They actually went and nerfed it some more. Just do want I did. Quit. ROF is increased for the Scrambler Pistol, both to reduce oversampling and get closer to old ROF? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Fristname Family name The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 81	Posted - 2014.09.23 15:05:00 - [10] - Quote Why would ads need nerf I kill any ds in 5secs flat with my gastruin and 2/3shot wih breach wich by the way better be the next officer forge. I use everything prettymuch and my ads account is just taking off and if you nerf my ROF please make bolas a non solid object for ds also make suicide ds not be possible the scrubiness of it is amZing. Ads gets attacked and swamped by av after the 1st kill it gets and the forge impact can flip a python which results in a instant loss. Please dont nerf the 10% or at least make the ads skill give 3% ROF per levepl and the race specific do 5%. Oh and while im here *GIVE ME MY GOD DAM FORGE GUN RELOAD SPEED NuMBERS YOU STOLE THEM IN 1.8!!!* Australian mercy worky.

manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 127	Posted - 2014.09.23 16:07:00 - [11] - Quote I thought dev responses were meant to be on topic? thanks for the response rattati. You listen to atiim pushing his blatant agenda around and decide to nerf multiple ADS aspects into the ground. Well guess what... do you know why you haven't heard much feedback from the ads community? Because you don't listen... There have been plenty of posts, i made 2 myself. Yet you have consistently failed to recognise that the ADS community is a high skill and tiny community in dust. Everyone out there has a swarm launcher. You just seem to enjoy punishing teamwork.... Having a gunner means an extra player is sacrificing a different role to fly in that dropship. That dropship does not receive any form of HP/Tank bonus because of that gunner. Therefore, the gunner is essentially reducing the personal hp of the ADS by half, as he will lose his role if the ADS goes down. Therefore this ADS now has 2 people relying on it's ability to hold it's own. Now you go ahead and say that practice, teamwork and high skill training (not sp) should be thrown out of the window. How many people do you honestly encounter with a gunner in an ADS.... and how many of them are purely AV? I'm sick of people pushing their own agenda on this game, i love the ADS because i am a flight enthusiast. It's always been a diverse, challenging and rewarding aspect of the game, similar to the functionality of non-straightforward weaponry such as the laser rifle, scrambler rifle, ion pistol and knives. Everyone wants to be able to win.... this game literally has a whole playerbase who just want to win, ofcourse they do, it's human nature. It is YOUR responsibility to sift the bias from the masses. Not OURS. Why should we have to defend ourselves on the forum when all you hear is a misinformed corporate representation of in game scenarios. Tell me honestly rattati, how many times did you die to ADS in the million clone event. I bet you 100,000 isk you didn't die once. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 127	Posted - 2014.09.23 16:10:00 - [12] - Quote Fine, i understand that aspects of the ADS experience are flawed. But it is very hard to understand this unless you fly one. You see an ADS running away from swarms. I see myself reacting in a manner to avoid swarm launchers, assess possible threats, spot the swarms not from rendering but from fire trails; at the same time engaging in a variety of manoeuvres such as flips to add distance and avoid forge guns while simultaneously recovering from the shock of losing nearly 2/3 of my HP almost instantly. I expect the discussions regarding ADS balance in hotfix echo to be more constructive and less biased/pushy. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game 129	Posted - 2014.09.23 16:21:00 - [13] - Quote Oh, and i want a respec for my ADS skill as it is a complete violation of my choices.... Im not paying 3 million SP for a 15% rof increase compared to 50% NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V. 1927	Posted - 2014.09.23 17:13:00 - [14] - Quote manboar thunder fist wrote: Oh, and i want a respec for my ADS skill as it is a complete violation of my choices.... Im not paying 3 million SP for a 15% rof increase compared to 50% did heavies get a respec for their suit, HMG, and FG nerf? Realisticaly all these changes mean is that you will ONLY go 20-0 instead of 40-0 holds out tear recepticle Amarr: Assault V, Scout V, Sentinel V, Commando V, Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 795	Posted - 2014.09.23 17:26:00 - [15] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: manboar thunder fist wrote: Oh, and i want a respec for my ADS skill as it is a complete violation of my choices.... Im not paying 3 million SP for a 15% rof increase compared to 50% did heavies get a respec for their suit, HMG, and FG nerf? Realisticaly all these changes mean is that you will ONLY go 20-0 instead of 40-0 holds out tear recepticle I find it hilarious how people bandy K/DR about like some grail. It was either yesterday or Sunday when I went 37/1 in a STD CalSentinel with STD HMG. That suit cost me 13k ISK, but that K/DR is irrelevant because it isn't an ADS, even though my best ADS streak is about 30 and either 0 or 1. Alt of Halla Murr.
Orphan Shadow Waiting For Deployment 55	Posted - 2014.09.23 17:32:00 - [16] - Quote People crying about the ScP are hilariously over reacting. The reading comprehension fail by fizzle is priceless. He quit, yet he's still here. Lol. As for the ADS, there was a day that ADS was complete crap. So it got some buffs. Kinda like so many other things in the game. It's over powered now and everyone agrees on that point. Rattati has explained more than once that ADS damage scales beyond other weapons in the game thus making it difficult to balance. So people beg for it to be dialed back slowly instead of being put in line for consistency. Your points have been read and heard (there are blue tags on multiple ADS threads), but Rattati made a difficult decision, took full ownership for it in front of everyone, and promised to revisit as needed. It's done. Quit crying about "ADS is dead, tears, wah wah, useless, blah blah". You guys crying about it are no different than anyone else who has cried about their favorite whatever. Have you noticed that every gun user, class and role user has cried at some point? Everyone. This is how balancing works over time and it's not easy. Bottom line: DUST development under Rattati is faster, better, and more transparent than at any other time in DUST's history. This won't be the last balance pass on the ADS. Some pilots have made good points and have well written thoughts. I don't mean to offend those pilots. Also, the ADS community has the pleasure of being represented by Judge, who is by far one of the greatest analytical contributors to the game from the player community. You may not be getting heard personally, but people like Judge are.
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Dark Taboo 1710	Posted - 2014.09.23 18:34:00 - [17] - Quote GENERAL the ADS had enough isk/sp barriers to actually warrant such a high bonuses. Apart from that the thing that really broke the game wasn't even the fact that it existed, the fact was that so much isk was currently in the game because of poor Planetary conquest decision (that were fixed waaaay too late) that many players could abuse the use of vehicles in general. Where the regular player could afford to lose one every 2 to 3 matches maybe more depending on the fit these people did not have that need and could simply spam them giving much grief to other players and creating a horrible game experience. Matchmaking was also a big factor (resolved) in which you could have 2 full squads in one team and no squads in the other, one abusing vehicles and the other team proverbially taking it like a pornstar. POWER RATIOS If it's power that many people where afraid or pissed off about, the should only need look to the fit of the month players who regularly get 20+ kills on a regular basis, a very conservative number since many passed the 30 and 40 mark, without having to use an ADS. SO power level was in fact balanced since at such a high isk/sp barrier your performance was akin to that of a mercenary on the ground. GUNNERS On the other hand, when talking about gunners, people could only say it's a bug but the evidence in the code changes demonstrate that skill stacking has always existed and there was even an active choice as to what skills stacked and which didn't. To this I bring the example of ammo capacity and proficiency. ammo capacity stacks and proficiency doesn't. I would like everyone to know that this paragraph isn't merely defending the status quo of maintaining what many forum warrior believed to be an unbalanced mechanic but the simple fact is that there where many barriers and balancing aspects to the whole pilot gunner dynamic that the regular joe simply did not want to fuss over. For example I was a dedicated pilot and had a dedicated gunner with both of us maxed skills. We would kill tanks very easily because they were not specced or skillfult. when a skilled tank came one would ussually have trouble taking it out since they knew how to move and what to do. The same thing goes for infantry. A good infantryman could simply avoid spotc where the ship could attack and consequently avoid damage altogether. Forge gunners could simply deny everything on the map, since thy could hit you before you could hit or find them. Against ADS and vehicles in general I would use a breach forge and my buddy would use an assault foge and we would destroy vehicles in no time. It was al about the regular player not wanting to waste time and think about what they could do to actually make a difference. Run and gunn is the only mindset most have. GUNNER/PILOT ENTRY BARRIERS as many people know it takes about 2.4 million skillpoints to max out the racial ads skill. Not to mention the prerequisites of actually getting to this skill. Lets say a total of 3 million per character pilot and gunner to have this power level. Add about 5 extra million minimum for the pilot since they have to have the fitting skills maxed out to be able to actually be effective with his ship you have a total of about 11 million skill points base for a good ads gunner duo. Now, realistically a pilot gunner duo would have to spend 500k minimum on a dropship. Thats 250k per player (same as a proto suit) for similar advantages. RESULTS In my experience with the pilot/gunner combo the average kills per match were 30 for the gunner and usually none for the pilot since my focus was positioning and staying in the air. If you divide 30 kill by 2, remember its a two man team and one person cannot be attributed all the glory, the average kills per person in said dropship is 15 which is by far overpowered. Now for the sake of argument lets say they average 50 kills per match, that would still equate to 25 kills per player in the ads which is well withing the boundaries of top players using FoTM or their weapon of choice for the isk/sp ratio. VERSUS VEHICLES Versus vehicle both ships had their potential as solo boats and an exponential increase n damage with a gunner. This exponential increase though did not mean isnta wins. Intelligent vehicle users did know how to avoid damage and the less experienced or skill(sp) ones lost as is the case in most situations that involve sp/isk investment. OTHER THOUGHTS The ADS changes go too far. In games you mostly saw an ads every 2 or 3 matches and even if you see one every match it's relatively easy for one person to keep it away from the action. I myself can 2 shot a python with my PLC and commando and anyone who has tried hitting an ads with a PLC knows how difficult it is. This is to say that even though I do not agree with the changes I would have fully supported them if they had been done in an ordered manner instead of the nerf hammer that has failed CCP countless times when it comes to balancing. As it stands it seem the changes will come out and I hope CCP takes a good look at usage scenarios and not simple usage amounts since this change will not affect missile incubus users which are the majority because of how difficult small rails are to use and how badly blaster perform on ADSs. After these changes I hope CCP uses the balancing scalpel instead of the nerf hammer. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3060	Posted - 2014.09.23 19:17:00 - [18] - Quote Skill stacking was a known thing back in beta. It was a thing. Everyone knew it was a thing. At the time it was an intentional design feature. Now it's a "bug." Stacking was coded in, it's not accidental behavior. It's just behavior that's no longer useful to the game.
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 50	Posted - 2014.09.23 19:59:00 - [19] - Quote The way rattati only says anything to the guy talking completly off topic here because he knows he completly screwed over the pilot community here and never even mentioned it. So much for this being a game which listens to its community. Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 798	Posted - 2014.09.23 22:30:00 - [20] - Quote (Reposted here, since this is specifically about the ADS nerfs and not about Delta in general) ROF Nerf Impact on DPS XT-1 Small Missiles Charlie ROF: 50; 0.83/sec; 9.6 sec until reload Delta ROF (unchanged) Charlie Python 5: 75; 1.25/sec; 6.4 sec until reload Delta Python 5: 57.5; 0.96/sec; 8.3 sec until reload Direct DPS Charlie/Delta: 379.2 Charlie Python 5: 568.8 Delta Python 5: 436 Splash DPS Charlie/Delta: 297.9 Charlie Python 5: 446.9 Delta Python 5: 342.6 Small Missiles seem fine for the most part. Personally, I'd much rather look at the Small Missiles themselves more than Python: reducing damage, increasing ROF marginally and increasing clip size would be a better way to make Missiles useful on other vehicles but also make them more skill dependant, requiring multiple impacts to kill most suits rather than the current high damage splash (which is what truly makes people cry foul about the ADS, and most specifically about the Python.) - This idea has been mentioned before, I might add. 20GJ Particle Cannon Charlie ROF: 120; 2/sec; 8 before overheat Delta ROF: 92; 1.53/sec; 6.13 before overheat Charlie Incubus 5: 180; 3/sec; 12 before overheat Delta Incubus 5: 105.8; 1.763/sec; 7.05 before overheat DPS/Damage Before Overheat Charlie: 868.4/3473.6 Delta: 665.8/2661.65 Charlie Incubus 5: 1302.6/5210.4 Charlie Incubus 5/ADS 5: 1432.86/5731.44 Delta Incubus 5: 765.6/3061.11 Delta Incubus 5/ADS 5: 842.16/3367.22 Currently, due primarily to the broken hit efficacies, the Incubus rips through shield vehicles and somewhat struggles with armour (apply a .77 multiplier for the Shield DPS; .68 multiplier for Armour DPS for any Charlie number: Delta numbers are a .9 for Shields and 1.1 for Armour.) With the proposed ROF changes, a L5 Incubus is getting a single extra shot before it overheats. This is, essentially, worthless. It must also be reminded that DPS figures are always contingent on landing all shots: it applies to all DPS statistics, obviously, and not just ADSs, but I raise the point because of the difficulty in targeting and maintaining your target whilst flying. Against an enemy dropship, you usually get a single good pass before they begin evasive manoeuvres - landing all of your shots in that 4 second overheat window against a dropship is about a 70% odds, give or take for pilot skill (attacker and defender.) When the target is moving or otherwise wary of you/other anti-vehicle weaponry, landing all shots is difficult. An HAV, for example, is a difficult target because of the mechanisms available for ground attack manoeuvres: using first person view is viable in an aerial engagement but rarely applicable to a strafing run. Even more to the point, HAVs have much greater responsiveness with regards acceleration - we've all seen an HAV 'yoyo' about the place. The point being that landing all sots against a ground target is even harder. So, with the proposed changes, an Incubus with Small Railgun is going to have to apply it's full DBO repeatedly to threaten any vehicle, which is no easy task once the enemy is alerted. Quite frankly, the ROF nerf is too much and impacts upon the Incubus's ability to perform its role (primarily AV using the Small Railgun) far more greatly than the Python's anti-infantry ground attack role is affected. Alt of Halla Murr.

Fristname Family name The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 82	Posted - 2014.09.24 03:33:00 - [21] - Quote Can some one take me into their incubs with a blaster. I wish to see a 30000rpm gun once before the nerf. XD also to any devs i have been waiting to veiw the forge gun reload speed for like 3months now can you atleast do that for me. Australian mercy worky.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 171	Posted - 2014.09.24 04:38:00 - [22] - Quote Fristname Family name wrote: Can some one take me into their incubs with a blaster. I wish to see a 30000rpm gun once before the nerf. XD also to any devs i have been waiting to veiw the forge gun reload speed for like 3months now can you atleast do that for me. Ask around in 1st airborne theres a few lv 5 incubus guys in there.


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