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TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 1242	Posted - 2014.09.21 23:47:00 - [1] - Quote So most would agree that a Scout should dedicate his fits to Ewar to benefit the 'Scout' side of their role, And more than most will agree scouts should have a harder time tanking up then what they have Then we have those who would complain Ewar mods are of little use outside of Scout suits.. So combining these into something to potentially balance Scout fittings - Reduce fiiting (CPU) on scout suits - Reduce fitting cost of EWAR modules (make the differnce from basic/complex small) This would leave Scouts in a position where they have no choice but to fit up in a way that allows - Weaponry and EWAR - Survivability and EWAR But due to less fitting available, Weaponry and Survivability both being on a Scout fit would be eliminated, the Ewar mods become used by all Scouts (lowering HP tanks) and with the lower fitting cost of EWAR They become less of an expense to Medium/Heavy frames which is fair seen as they are inneffective ... So this would surely be hotfixable.. but what is the player and CCP opinion on this..? Innapropriate Irrelevence... Welcome to the Dust Forum, hang around to see why everyone else left :/
The Master Race Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 6	Posted - 2014.09.21 23:53:00 - [2] - Quote Here is a article on Ewar knowing is half the battle now you know... http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/EWAR_Guide. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2376	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:00:00 - [3] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: So most would agree that a Scout should dedicate his fits to Ewar to benefit the 'Scout' side of their role, And more than most will agree scouts should have a harder time tanking up then what they have Then we have those who would complain Ewar mods are of little use outside of Scout suits.. So combining these into something to potentially balance Scout fittings - Reduce fiiting (CPU) on scout suits - Reduce fitting cost of EWAR modules (make the differnce from basic/complex small) This would leave Scouts in a position where they have no choice but to fit up in a way that allows - Weaponry and EWAR - Survivability and EWAR But due to less fitting available, Weaponry and Survivability both being on a Scout fit would be eliminated, the Ewar mods become used by all Scouts (lowering HP tanks) and with the lower fitting cost of EWAR They become less of an expense to Medium/Heavy frames which is fair seen as they are inneffective ... So this would surely be hotfixable.. but what is the player and CCP opinion on this..? What about minmitar scouts? We have no eWar bonuses, so reducing fitting capacity would not be a good way to go for them. Also, gg on those PC's earlier. I was playing for a friend who needed to hit 10 matches, and i think i killed you a few times. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Jebus McKing Legio DXIV 658	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:02:00 - [4] - Quote I don't have a problem with scouts who want to have some kind of assault fittings. (Weaponry and survivability) But what I don't like is that they can do that AND get their EWAR bonus. This is especially a problem with the Cal scout who gets a ~50m scan range and thus can see everyone but other scouts AND gives its whole squad this scanning advantage AND still can use all of its slots for tanking. So my proposal would be to tie (at least some of) those bonuses to the modules involved instead of making them inherent. You have to post numbers and math to be taken seriously. // @JebusMcKing
Omega Black Zero Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 96	Posted - 2014.09.22 00:41:00 - [5] - Quote How about giving Commando eWar as well, it would make it a scout killer class? Just a passing thought.
Crimson ShieId Psygod9 908	Posted - 2014.09.22 01:08:00 - [6] - Quote OP, haven't you heard? Ewar is OP and needs to be removed from the game. Those dirty wallhacking scouts are the new enemy, not the brick tanking ones! Get with the times! In all seriousness though, I haven't seen many brick tanked scouts lately. Most of the Gallente scouts I've been noticing have around 300 or less armor, and I've been seeing more and more running with the base stats, no HP modifiers included. Nova Knives are best sidearm.
The Master Race Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 8	Posted - 2014.09.22 02:04:00 - [7] - Quote The stealth ability they have seems fine what I have a problem with is there weaponry It would be nice if they could only fit side arms. Not only does it fit the class, but with there stealth they can choose there position. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4299	Posted - 2014.09.22 04:05:00 - [8] - Quote The Master Race wrote: The stealth ability they have seems fine what I have a problem with is there weaponry It would be nice if they could only fit side arms. Not only does it fit the class, but with there stealth they can choose there position. Aside from NKs, the other side arms are just simply not strong enough. When you sacrifice that much HP to be tacnet invisible, the more shots it takes to take down a target, the more likely you will die. Scouts can't take on other frames when it comes down to who has the most HP, and no matter how much stealth you use, you are going to make yourself known when you start shooting. If scouts are relegated to side arms, it will be nothing but knifers because you simply can't provide enough fire power with the other weapons, especially at range. Side arms only has been a horrible idea ever since it had been brought up months (years?) ago, and it has not ever gotten more convincing. You can always tell a Millford Minja
The Master Race Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 9	Posted - 2014.09.22 04:47:00 - [9] - Quote SMGs shred people, scrambler pistols have a huge head shot bonus, ion pistols can be charged for a big hit, and magsecs/bolt pistols have range. They are all viable if you can control your range and as a scout you pretty much get to not to mention get the jump on people. All I read one eye was don't nerf me bro. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4302	Posted - 2014.09.22 04:57:00 - [10] - Quote The Master Race wrote: SMGs shred people, scrambler pistols have a huge head shot bonus, ion pistols can be charged for a big hit, and magsecs/bolt pistols have range. They are all viable if you can control your range and as a scout you pretty much get to not to mention get the jump on people. All I read one eye was don't nerf me bro. SMGs are very short range. Pistols are unforgiving, and are relatively short range. Mag Sec is decent, but if the Bolt Pistols were viable, more people would carry them. I get just as much right to mention scouts getting the jump on people in scout balancing as a non scout. Besides, you are beating a dead horse. CCP has already flat out denied any limitations of scouts to side arms. At this point you are just crying because scouts are actually deadly now. Just like the other suits. You can always tell a Millford Minja

The Master Race Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 9	Posted - 2014.09.22 05:16:00 - [11] - Quote lol I had two scouts a easy mode shotgun scout and I just deleted my mini kn scout because I didn't like the name. They are deadly and op the starting profile is epic and camping a point with or without stealth is an easy win unless you run into the heaviest of heavies or like 3 people. Just wondering did you read the delta patch notes one eye? I did a search and couldn't find this info you were talking about if you could provide me with a link that would be great. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2378	Posted - 2014.09.22 11:28:00 - [12] - Quote The Master Race wrote: The stealth ability they have seems fine what I have a problem with is there weaponry It would be nice if they could only fit side arms. Not only does it fit the class, but with there stealth they can choose there position. Well I have a problem with your weaponry. I think you should only be able to fit sniper rifles and flay lock pistols because thats what I arbitrarily decided "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 373	Posted - 2014.09.22 13:05:00 - [13] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: So most would agree that a Scout should dedicate his fits to Ewar to benefit the 'Scout' side of their role, And more than most will agree scouts should have a harder time tanking up then what they have Then we have those who would complain Ewar mods are of little use outside of Scout suits.. So combining these into something to potentially balance Scout fittings - Reduce fiiting (CPU) on scout suits - Reduce fitting cost of EWAR modules (make the differnce from basic/complex small) This would leave Scouts in a position where they have no choice but to fit up in a way that allows - Weaponry and EWAR - Survivability and EWAR But due to less fitting available, Weaponry and Survivability both being on a Scout fit would be eliminated, the Ewar mods become used by all Scouts (lowering HP tanks) and with the lower fitting cost of EWAR They become less of an expense to Medium/Heavy frames which is fair seen as they are inneffective ... So this would surely be hotfixable.. but what is the player and CCP opinion on this..? Where is the carrot? Since someone inform me that passive scanning works on 360* - I know that so silly, me excuse is that I can not read all patch info. So, I start to use proto gallente scout with only EWAR modules. I need to tell that there is no reward in providing 'scout bonuses' to squad - you paying a lot, and in return get not much. Yes you are walking prob, and you detect a lot of red dots, but no one is paying you for doing this. I run mostly random matches - ambush recently, if I see squad I joining to them, and I'm trying to provide as much intel about enemy troops as it is possible. So my tactics is to use complete stealth-cloak and penetrate unseen frontline, hide somewhere between red dots and scan them from time to time with active scanner to pick high profiles with str scanner(that usually 60-70% of me wp profit if squad is cool kill 'burning' dots). From time to time I'm killing those who try to play alone, but only if I'm completely sure that next thing I will see is red-cloud looking for me. When game ends I usually get kicked from squad - players in squad have no idea what benefit did I provide to squad, all they see is stupid blueberry that stand between enemies for half match and did nothing about it, and he ends up somewhere at place 12+ on scoreboard(if they bother to even check board) - would you bother about that kind of player, I bet no. Generally speaking scouting mechanic is not in place where I see it, and the more you dig into passive scanning the less meaning information for yourself you get. Iit is very important to distinguish between 'real-hostile' red dot, like sentinel behind wall with full HP, and 'easy-kill' red dot, like light scout with half armor - it is very important when you have 240HP total, because all you can see is red dot at radar. It's look like today-scouts the more they skill in and fit scanning modules the less meaning information for them they get. But for squad at the other hand it's priceless - imagine that you playing as sentinel and for example normally all you can see is 1-2 dots, having scout in squad that uncovers 95% enemy team and doing so in way that they are not aware of it, it's epic. Lowering EWAR req. is cool, but what I would like to see is more carrots for players that decide to fit them. Gallente Speed Scout. EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 1245	Posted - 2014.09.22 16:06:00 - [14] - Quote This was just a suggestion, I want something to be fixed with scouting that will remove the Slayer Tourists While at the same time keeping the Scout as a viable suit for killing... which it should be Without the crutch of 600+ HP I'm not certain how it could be done, but something to promote Ewar over HP mods, may help - @ Gav, yup good fights, I die lots :) - @ Syl, 'Carrot' well the reward is that u and your squad can have shared intel via passive scans Though this may be part of the issue if a 'WP' reward was in place, mercs might use Ewar a little more Innapropriate Irrelevence... Welcome to the Dust Forum, hang around to see why everyone else left :/
The Master Race Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 15	Posted - 2014.09.22 18:42:00 - [15] - Quote Arbitrary lol you can turn invisible at will. The suit has the best stats and second best slots in a game. Arbitrary you should look up words before you use them gavrilo. It isn't like a scout can't shred people with side arms it just get rid of easy mode. (I play easy mode scout) New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
Radec fett 1	Posted - 2014.09.22 18:52:00 - [16] - Quote I don't care what up guys do to the scouts that have ewar, just don't touch the minmatar scouts, we have the lowest eHP, the lowest CPU/PG and no dampening/precision bonus Im a proud minmatar scout, ill cut u down with my knife or throw an RE , one way or another i will assassinate u...
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4323	Posted - 2014.09.22 19:42:00 - [17] - Quote The Master Race wrote: SMGs shred people, scrambler pistols have a huge head shot bonus, ion pistols can be charged for a big hit, and magsecs/bolt pistols have range. They are all viable if you can control your range and as a scout you pretty much get to not to mention get the jump on people. All I read one eye was don't nerf me bro. I am looking at the Delta numbers did you? While I have not exhaustively done so, I am seeing a nerf in RANGE to ALL SIDE ARMS. For comparison, the effective range of an HMG, which is supposed to be the quintessential CQC weapon, has a new proposed effective range of 52, which is actually greater than many of the side arms, especially with the range nerf. Not to mention that the DPS of an HMG is so great that even with a fall off, you are looking at this situation: A heavy with 1000 to 1500 HP that when compared to a tanked scout at 500 to 600 HP, will have twice as much HP as the scout, greater range than a number of the scouts weapons (assuming the scenario of side arm only), and will effectively be able to destroy a scout at long range with the scout having absolutely no viable weaponry option. Except NKs. That is it. Want to take on a heavy? Well, its NKs, and CQC for you. Got a Cal scout with Range Amps? Doesn't matter, you can only fit in close and medium ranges. FYI, this actually wouldn't be a nerf to me. I run NKs and an SMG. It wouldn't affect me at all. It WOULD affect the balance of this game. I want balance. You are the one crying to nerf a suit that can now kill you. That is what happens when suits that were underperforming for nearly a year after the "official release" of a game suddenly get some much needed attention. Sure, there were significant problems of tanked scouts getting off two shots with shotguns that should never have happened, and there were some much needed fixes. There are many options that address real problems, that don't over correct for one or two abusive situations to make ineffective many other legitimate uses of the suit. Making scouts side arm only is not a legitimate solution to anyone looking for a balanced game. Period. You can always tell a Millford Minja
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4323	Posted - 2014.09.22 19:44:00 - [18] - Quote The Master Race wrote: Arbitrary lol you can turn invisible at will. The suit has the best stats and second best slots in a game. Arbitrary you should look up words before you use them gavrilo. It isn't like a scout can't shred people with side arms it just get rid of easy mode. (I play easy mode scout) Scouts aren't invisible. They are blury. Sometimes when they run, they glow. That is not invisible. That is less visible. If we were actually invisible, many cloaked scouts would die less. But they don't because contrary to your mischaracterization, you can actually see them. You can always tell a Millford Minja
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4323	Posted - 2014.09.22 19:46:00 - [19] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: This was just a suggestion, I want something to be fixed with scouting that will remove the Slayer Tourists While at the same time keeping the Scout as a viable suit for killing... which it should be Without the crutch of 600+ HP I'm not certain how it could be done, but something to promote Ewar over HP mods, may help - @ Gav, yup good fights, I die lots :) - @ Syl, 'Carrot' well the reward is that u and your squad can have shared intel via passive scans Though this may be part of the issue if a 'WP' reward was in place, mercs might use Ewar a little more No one dislikes the tourists as much as the old school scouts. I appreciate that your heart is in the right place. I also dislike tanked scouts. But as many have proposed before, taking away passive dampening ability and making it an efficacy bonus to module use would be a much better option. Or a doubling of the movement penalty on plates just for scouts. Either would be better than side arm only. You can always tell a Millford Minja
maluble Art.of.Death VP Gaming Alliance 74	Posted - 2014.09.22 20:28:00 - [20] - Quote The Master Race wrote: SMGs shred people, scrambler pistols have a huge head shot bonus, ion pistols can be charged for a big hit, and magsecs/bolt pistols have range. They are all viable if you can control your range and as a scout you pretty much get to not to mention get the jump on people. All I read one eye was don't nerf me bro. I agree unless wielding a sniper rifle a scout should be using a cqc weapon. Let us keep the use of SR and SG but not other light weapons.

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4328	Posted - 2014.09.22 20:35:00 - [21] - Quote maluble wrote: The Master Race wrote: SMGs shred people, scrambler pistols have a huge head shot bonus, ion pistols can be charged for a big hit, and magsecs/bolt pistols have range. They are all viable if you can control your range and as a scout you pretty much get to not to mention get the jump on people. All I read one eye was don't nerf me bro. I agree unless wielding a sniper rifle a scout should be using a cqc weapon. Let us keep the use of SR and SG but not other light weapons. That is cherry picking. One of the major factors in Dust is variety of style. There is no reason a scout shouldn't be able to use a RR, ScR, or CR. In fact, there are many situations where they are at a disadvantage for doing so, so why limit them? In the same way that Sentinals should be allowed to use weapon other than an HMG and Forge, so should scouts be able to use something other than SR, SG and side arms. You can always tell a Millford Minja
The Master Race Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 18	Posted - 2014.09.22 20:56:00 - [22] - Quote There is no real loss in SR or SG you have knova knifes for insta kills and you can fit your sniper rifle to any other suit and get undetectable with 3 slots (upcoming sniper changes in mind). New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
CharacterNameWasTaken G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 60	Posted - 2014.09.22 21:03:00 - [23] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: So most would agree that a Scout should dedicate his fits to Ewar to benefit the 'Scout' side of their role, And more than most will agree scouts should have a harder time tanking up then what they have Then we have those who would complain Ewar mods are of little use outside of Scout suits.. So combining these into something to potentially balance Scout fittings - Reduce fiiting (CPU) on scout suits - Reduce fitting cost of EWAR modules (make the differnce from basic/complex small) This would leave Scouts in a position where they have no choice but to fit up in a way that allows - Weaponry and EWAR - Survivability and EWAR But due to less fitting available, Weaponry and Survivability both being on a Scout fit would be eliminated, the Ewar mods become used by all Scouts (lowering HP tanks) and with the lower fitting cost of EWAR They become less of an expense to Medium/Heavy frames which is fair seen as they are inneffective ... So this would surely be hotfixable.. but what is the player and CCP opinion on this..? Maybe instead of lowering ew fitting add it in with the scout skill just like the cloak as in maybe 5% reduction to ew modules per lvl same for biotics.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4328	Posted - 2014.09.22 21:15:00 - [24] - Quote CharacterNameWasTaken wrote: Maybe instead of lowering ew fitting add it in with the scout skill just like the cloak as in maybe 5% reduction to ew modules per lvl same for biotics. I am curious as to how this would work. Can you give me an example of how this would run? I am having a hard time picturing it. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2380	Posted - 2014.09.23 00:26:00 - [25] - Quote The Master Race wrote: Arbitrary lol you can turn invisible at will. The suit has the best stats and second best slots in a game. Arbitrary you should look up words before you use them gavrilo. It isn't like a scout can't shred people with side arms it just get rid of easy mode. (I play easy mode scout) I am willing to bet all the isk i own that my vocabulary is superior to yours. Don't go down this road, many have been publicly shamed while doing so. By second best, if you mean out of the 5 suits in the game, we have the third best, then yes, you're correct. Assaults/Logis (1st/2nd), Scout, Sentinel, Commando. Scouts are only "easy mode" in pubs, which is the same place that dual plasma cannons are easy mode. When you run your "easy mode" scout, any player worth their salt will destroy you until pick up an HMG heavy. That is true easy mode right there. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2380	Posted - 2014.09.23 00:29:00 - [26] - Quote TBH it would be to my benefit if scouts could only run sidearms, SG's and SR's. However, for the sake of balance, Im going to say your idea is terrible. It'd be fine if we took away the HMG and sentinel's SA slot It'd be fine if we took away the logi's weapon slot It'd be fine if we limited the assault to only one LW It'd be fine if we limited the commando to one LW and a SA "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9515	Posted - 2014.09.23 01:06:00 - [27] - Quote Honestly, I'm of the the opinion that limiting scouts to sidearms only is too much of a nerf. I have been experimenting recently on my alt using all known sidearms skilled to at least level 3 in their operations. So far, the only viable sidearms I can see working for sidearm-only scouts are the Nova Knives, Sub Machine Gun, Scrambler Pistol, and the Bolt Pistol. Even then, you have to be good with these things and the Nova Knives are the only OHK weapon of their class. In fact, heavies fear knives more than than the shotgun because they are relatively quiet and most heavies can be killed on the first hit when used correctly. Heavies won't even realize that their Logibros have been filleted until they're stabbed by the knifer as well. Knives don't generate any trails either. Essentially, limiting the scout to sidearm only won't have any impact on scouts that are dedicated ninja knifers that are as deadly as most players out there already. A skilled knifer can go 20-5 easily with a knife-only fit. There is another way to deal with scouts that are becoming better than assaults though. I don't know who originally thought of this, but the idea is that a scout's inherent bonuses would not kick in unless the suit is fitted with modules that are respective to them. An EWAR scout for example will not be able to use its inherent EWAR bonuses if the related modules are not fitted. They keep their CPU and PG as they are but are forced to make a choice between pretending to be assaults and using their suit exactly how it's suppose to be used. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5142	Posted - 2014.09.23 01:14:00 - [28] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: There is another way to deal with scouts that are becoming better than assaults though. I don't know who originally thought of this, but the idea is that a scout's inherent bonuses would not kick in unless the suit is fitted with modules that are respective to them. An EWAR scout for example will not be able to use its inherent EWAR bonuses if the related modules are not fitted. They keep their CPU and PG as they are but are forced to make a choice between pretending to be assaults and using their suit exactly how it's suppose to be used. o/ Pretty sure that Scouts came up with that idea :-). Another option is to simply increase movement penalty of plates on Light/Scout frames to widen the gap of effectiveness between Assault and Assault Lite, assuming of course that the gap is deemed too narrow. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9518	Posted - 2014.09.23 01:21:00 - [29] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: There is another way to deal with scouts that are becoming better than assaults though. I don't know who originally thought of this, but the idea is that a scout's inherent bonuses would not kick in unless the suit is fitted with modules that are respective to them. An EWAR scout for example will not be able to use its inherent EWAR bonuses if the related modules are not fitted. They keep their CPU and PG as they are but are forced to make a choice between pretending to be assaults and using their suit exactly how it's suppose to be used. o/ Pretty sure that Scouts came up with that idea :-). Another option is to simply increase movement penalty of plates on Light/Scout frames to widen the gap of effectiveness between Assault and Assault Lite, assuming of course that the gap is deemed too narrow. That's actually another good option. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2892	Posted - 2014.09.23 01:28:00 - [30] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: There is another way to deal with scouts that are becoming better than assaults though. I don't know who originally thought of this, but the idea is that a scout's inherent bonuses would not kick in unless the suit is fitted with modules that are respective to them. An EWAR scout for example will not be able to use its inherent EWAR bonuses if the related modules are not fitted. They keep their CPU and PG as they are but are forced to make a choice between pretending to be assaults and using their suit exactly how it's suppose to be used. o/ Pretty sure that Scouts came up with that idea :-). Another option is to simply increase movement penalty of plates on Light/Scout frames to widen the gap of effectiveness between Assault and Assault Lite, assuming of course that the gap is deemed too narrow. That's actually another good option. +1 for constructive discussion. Also, related to some other comments in the thread, "side-arm only" is not a conceptually useful method. It creates the possibility of as much (or more) balance difficulties as it may solve and I remain not in support of that as a method for any of our current classes. Now if new classes were added (such as the pilot suit) that might provide for such a method being the correct route, but short of that I maintain the stance I have had on the subject since beta. Say no to the side-arm only nerf bat. 0.02 ISK Cross PS ~ Standard disclaimer, I am a player not a Dev, my views are my own and do not decide the way the game is deployed, when presenting feedback I do not represent my personal view as the community view and I remain open to new information and reasoning regardless of the subject so if I disagree with you please feel free to persuade me. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)



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