Pages: 1 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2839
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 00:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've been doing some field testing with the Ishukone Assault Forge Gun to test AV efficacy. I normally run a caldari sentinel with two damage mods in the highs for what, +8% ish damage total since Heavy damage mods are +5% before diminishing returns?
After some thorough (and needlessly violent) testing, I am ready to produce my results, which were obtained using a templar sentinel with an Ishukone Assault Forge Gun, three militia armor reps, a toxin SMG, and a militia locus grenade.
Overtanked Gunnlogi target: 2 Extenders, and a plate, no hardener. Right around 5200 HP RAW. Provided by Shooter01I was talking about heavy mods + forge gunr
CalSent with two damage mods: 5 shots from front/side arc. 2 shots from behind. Amarr Sentinel with no damage mods: 5 shots from the front/side arc. 2 shots from behind.
Random Pubbies in Soma and Madrugar: The other white meat. They got ripped apart with the Amarr Sentinel setup.
My last match ran 1505 WP, 4 kills, 4 deaths. 5 tanks were destroyed in the making of this fiasco, as well as several LAVs and Fixed turret emplacements. We lost, but it wasn't because of me screwing off. I spent the match hunting the abundant tank drops in my crapfit proto-gun Kill Me Suit.
At this point I'll be yanking all of my heavy damage mods off my AV fits. They don't provide any meaningful benefit to the role. I highly recommend you do as well, as most of the lost efficiency will be made up for by me putting my last point of forge gun proficiency in. My assessment as a career psychopath and all-round tank-murdering bastard is that there's no reason to bother with damage mods after forge gun proficiency 3.
Anyone want to provide feedback on whether damage mods do anything worthwhile on HMG fits? I don't notice any difference, personally. |
|
CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
7458
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 04:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well they were kept the same to not break the HMG, thats the fact.
We can look at this later.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
|
|
ACT1ON BASTARD
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
165
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 08:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Well they were kept the same to not break the HMG, thats the fact.
We can look at this later. No youre not buffing forges, vehicles are easy enough to kill as is, didnt you read 2 hits to back of tank = death.This is coming from vet forgegunner day 1, my first weapon.Im also a pilot and when i hit the field in my ads im enemy #1.Have to dodge installations, swarms, forges, rammers, other dropships/tanks.AV has it way too easy, i can set up shop on a building and prevent vehicles from even entering the map, my fits also invulnerable to snipers because i put reps so i have no real enemy. Rattati just play vehicles for a couple of days and youll see the abomination youve created a.k.a. AV. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2844
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 09:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
I agree. Forge gun needs no buff.
I think Heavy damage mods should be swapped to a different bonus since marauders are not a thing. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2844
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 10:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: No youre not buffing forges, vehicles are easy enough to kill as is, didnt you read 2 hits to back of tank = death.This is coming from vet forgegunner day 1, my first weapon.Im also a pilot and when i hit the field in my ads im enemy #1.Have to dodge installations, swarms, forges, rammers, other dropships/tanks.AV has it way too easy, i can set up shop on a building and prevent vehicles from even entering the map, my fits also invulnerable to snipers because i put reps so i have no real enemy. Rattati just play vehicles for a couple of days and youll see the abomination youve created a.k.a. AV.
read the post. He never said that forges were getting a buff. I simply pointed out that the heavy damage mods are worthless. Quit being a reactionary git because getting damage mods spiked up isn't my objective and will not be part of my agenda until such time as marauders are re-released (with chromosome stats).
Changing damage mods from +damage to + magazine capacity, fitting boosts or range enhancements (probably a bad idea don't use the +range idea) might be a better option than the useless turd that is 5% damage mods that were made gimpy because the HMG is a CQC monster.
It has no effect on TTK whatsoever and the benefit of damage mods on the HMG is negligible at best. So right now its a useless module. We dont need useless modules. |
Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
312
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 10:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Dont want to burst your bubble but you can 2 shot kill that thing when hitting the weakspot in the back. Ive done it multiple times and if you want to go forge AV you take a buddy with you in a LAV and drive behind that guy. Then jump out and he is toast.
Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2845
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 10:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:Dont want to burst your bubble but you can 2 shot kill that thing when hitting the weakspot in the back. Ive done it multiple times and if you want to go forge AV you take a buddy with you in a LAV and drive behind that guy. Then jump out and he is toast.
This was actually included in my thesis statement in the OP.
It was not to complain that the aforementioned gunnlogi was too tough. It was that there was no functional difference between no damage mods and two damage mods regardless of angle of attack.
Please read the whole post before attemting to correct me.
And I do your backshot maneuver you describe solo. I'm usually extremely successful with it. |
ACT1ON BASTARD
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
165
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 15:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: No youre not buffing forges, vehicles are easy enough to kill as is, didnt you read 2 hits to back of tank = death.This is coming from vet forgegunner day 1, my first weapon.Im also a pilot and when i hit the field in my ads im enemy #1.Have to dodge installations, swarms, forges, rammers, other dropships/tanks.AV has it way too easy, i can set up shop on a building and prevent vehicles from even entering the map, my fits also invulnerable to snipers because i put reps so i have no real enemy. Rattati just play vehicles for a couple of days and youll see the abomination youve created a.k.a. AV.
read the post. He never said that forges were getting a buff. I simply pointed out that the heavy damage mods are worthless. Quit being a reactionary git because getting damage mods spiked up isn't my objective and will not be part of my agenda until such time as marauders are re-released (with chromosome stats). Changing damage mods from +damage to + magazine capacity, fitting boosts or range enhancements (probably a bad idea don't use the +range idea) might be a better option than the useless turd that is 5% damage mods that were made gimpy because the HMG is a CQC monster. It has no effect on TTK whatsoever and the benefit of damage mods on the HMG is negligible at best. So right now its a useless module. We dont need useless modules. Hey you gotta draw the line somewhere. Just look at the state of v vs. av, av gets buffs and vehicles get nerfed every single update.Literally every update. Why the constant nerfs? Well if you give someone an inch theyll take the mile. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2859
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 15:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
ACT1ON BASTARD wrote:Hey you gotta draw the line somewhere. Just look at the state of v vs. av, av gets buffs and vehicles get nerfed every single update.Literally every update. Why the constant nerfs? Well if you give someone an inch theyll take the mile. I suggest drawing the line with someone who is interested in making AV into easy mode.
I am not, but I will mock the sh*t out of people who whine, act childish and demand that driving a vehicle make them immune to infantry plebes.
Bluntly I would rather have proto weapon mods that add 200 rounds to an HMG drum and two or three shots to a forge magazine given the illusiory usefulness of what we have. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2836
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 08:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
/Cross steals Breakin's research to use as a reason marauders should be back in the game (what? I want there to be more toys to blow upplay with )
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2901
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 08:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:/Cross steals Breakin's research to use as a reason marauders should be back in the game (what? I want there to be more toys to blow upplay with )
I have very specific ideas on how to do that, balance against AV and buff dropships so that AV effective against marauders does not insta-murder them.
Untanked LAVs should be considered suicide sleds. |
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3531
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 08:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
While I agree that other weapon modifier modules such as Mag Capacity Bonus Reload Speed Bonus Recoil Reduction Bonus would be welcome across all tiers, it's not that the damage mods are ineffective. But forge guns will only see a decent return when the difference between modded and unmodded is at least 1 shot, which would have to be a very large bonus.
HMG's also get minimal returns because decreasing a 0.9second TTK by 8% is only 0.83 or 700ths of a second difference. But then this exactly why damage mods should remain as they are.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2903
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 09:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
No. Useless mods are detrimental to the game.
They should not be a thing. If the assault/scout damage mods got dumped back to 5% everyone would be up in arms.
The idea that heavy suits need to be somehow ineffectual is a sh*t thesis statement.
Right now the forge is a solid AV piece with good efficacy across the board. It should remain as is because nerfing it to where you HAVE to have a damage mod to be as good is a crap move.
Honestly heavy weapons should stand on their own, not be propped up by a damage boost mod. The amount of damage they do is quite solid on their own.
The only thing current damage mods give is an illusion of improvement. This is not good and it is misleading to players who don't come here and read the forums. |
Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1140
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 15:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I've been doing some field testing with the Ishukone Assault Forge Gun to test AV efficacy. I normally run a caldari sentinel with two damage mods in the highs for what, +8% ish damage total since Heavy damage mods are +5% before diminishing returns?
After some thorough (and needlessly violent) testing, I am ready to produce my results, which were obtained using a templar sentinel with an Ishukone Assault Forge Gun, three militia armor reps, a toxin SMG, and a militia locus grenade.
Overtanked Gunnlogi target: 2 Extenders, and a plate, no hardener. Right around 5200 HP RAW. Provided by Shooter01
CalSent with two damage mods: 5 shots from front/side arc. 2 shots from behind. Amarr Sentinel with no damage mods: 5 shots from the front/side arc. 2 shots from behind.
Random Pubbies in Soma and Madrugar: The other white meat. They got ripped apart with the Amarr Sentinel setup.
My last match ran 1505 WP, 4 kills, 4 deaths. 5 tanks were destroyed in the making of this fiasco, as well as several LAVs and Fixed turret emplacements. We lost, but it wasn't because of me screwing off. I spent the match hunting the abundant tank drops in my crapfit proto-gun Kill Me Suit.
At this point I'll be yanking all of my heavy damage mods off my AV fits. They don't provide any meaningful benefit to the role. I highly recommend you do as well, as most of the lost efficiency will be made up for by me putting my last point of forge gun proficiency in. My assessment as a career psychopath and all-round tank-murdering bastard is that there's no reason to bother with damage mods after forge gun proficiency 3.
Anyone want to provide feedback on whether damage mods do anything worthwhile on HMG fits? I don't notice any difference, personally.
I don't use damage mods on any AV fit, the reason is just math and the nature of the weapons and targets. The issue is the number of hits it takes to kill, and unless you are having to make another hit with your target just having a sliver of health then there is no point to dmg mods. Rhree hits is three hits, whether the last hit has to do only 500 damage or 1000 damage. The HMG has a different dynamic.
Dmg mods don't need fixing, it is just the nature of the beast that they aren't useful.
Because, that's why.
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2911
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 15:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Honestly heavy damage mods could be removed without significantly changing the game dynamic. |
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2882
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 18:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Cross Atu wrote:/Cross steals Breakin's research to use as a reason marauders should be back in the game (what? I want there to be more toys to blow upplay with ) I have very specific ideas on how to do that, balance against AV and buff dropships so that AV effective against marauders does not insta-murder them. Untanked LAVs should be considered suicide sleds. If a thread or spreadsheet/doc goes on up those be sure to give me a shout so that I see it. o7
Cheers, Cross
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
The Master Race
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 21:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
I would love to see a forge gun buff I mean you guys are removing our splash dmg. 5 shots with a heavy weapon which takes a huge investment compared to how many shots with a swarm which fits any suit at a lesser sp cost? |
Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
3298
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 22:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Cross Atu wrote:/Cross steals Breakin's research to use as a reason marauders should be back in the game (what? I want there to be more toys to blow upplay with ) I have very specific ideas on how to do that, balance against AV and buff dropships so that AV effective against marauders does not insta-murder them. Untanked LAVs should be considered suicide sleds. If a thread or spreadsheet/doc goes on up those be sure to give me a shout so that I see it. o7 Cheers, Cross
I'll see about making something, Also Master Race... Soylent Green is made of PEOPLE.
http://evil-guide.tripod.com/
|
Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2887
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 23:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Cross Atu wrote:/Cross steals Breakin's research to use as a reason marauders should be back in the game (what? I want there to be more toys to blow upplay with ) I have very specific ideas on how to do that, balance against AV and buff dropships so that AV effective against marauders does not insta-murder them. Untanked LAVs should be considered suicide sleds. If a thread or spreadsheet/doc goes on up those be sure to give me a shout so that I see it. o7 Cheers, Cross I'll see about making something, Also Master Race... Soylent Green is made of PEOPLE. Thanks Killer, I look forward to it o7
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
|
Dimitri Rascolovitch
The Immortal Knights
228
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 03:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
ACT1ON BASTARD wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: No youre not buffing forges, vehicles are easy enough to kill as is, didnt you read 2 hits to back of tank = death.This is coming from vet forgegunner day 1, my first weapon.Im also a pilot and when i hit the field in my ads im enemy #1.Have to dodge installations, swarms, forges, rammers, other dropships/tanks.AV has it way too easy, i can set up shop on a building and prevent vehicles from even entering the map, my fits also invulnerable to snipers because i put reps so i have no real enemy. Rattati just play vehicles for a couple of days and youll see the abomination youve created a.k.a. AV.
read the post. He never said that forges were getting a buff. I simply pointed out that the heavy damage mods are worthless. Quit being a reactionary git because getting damage mods spiked up isn't my objective and will not be part of my agenda until such time as marauders are re-released (with chromosome stats). Changing damage mods from +damage to + magazine capacity, fitting boosts or range enhancements (probably a bad idea don't use the +range idea) might be a better option than the useless turd that is 5% damage mods that were made gimpy because the HMG is a CQC monster. It has no effect on TTK whatsoever and the benefit of damage mods on the HMG is negligible at best. So right now its a useless module. We dont need useless modules. Hey you gotta draw the line somewhere. Just look at the state of v vs. av, av gets buffs and vehicles get nerfed every single update.Literally every update. Why the constant nerfs? Well if you give someone an inch theyll take the mile.
wanna know why? 1.8 AV got nerfed into the ground, and we got invincible flying HAVs
Burst HMG is OP use it. I do
|
|
ACT1ON BASTARD
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
167
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 03:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
Dimitri Rascolovitch wrote:ACT1ON BASTARD wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: No youre not buffing forges, vehicles are easy enough to kill as is, didnt you read 2 hits to back of tank = death.This is coming from vet forgegunner day 1, my first weapon.Im also a pilot and when i hit the field in my ads im enemy #1.Have to dodge installations, swarms, forges, rammers, other dropships/tanks.AV has it way too easy, i can set up shop on a building and prevent vehicles from even entering the map, my fits also invulnerable to snipers because i put reps so i have no real enemy. Rattati just play vehicles for a couple of days and youll see the abomination youve created a.k.a. AV.
read the post. He never said that forges were getting a buff. I simply pointed out that the heavy damage mods are worthless. Quit being a reactionary git because getting damage mods spiked up isn't my objective and will not be part of my agenda until such time as marauders are re-released (with chromosome stats). Changing damage mods from +damage to + magazine capacity, fitting boosts or range enhancements (probably a bad idea don't use the +range idea) might be a better option than the useless turd that is 5% damage mods that were made gimpy because the HMG is a CQC monster. It has no effect on TTK whatsoever and the benefit of damage mods on the HMG is negligible at best. So right now its a useless module. We dont need useless modules. Hey you gotta draw the line somewhere. Just look at the state of v vs. av, av gets buffs and vehicles get nerfed every single update.Literally every update. Why the constant nerfs? Well if you give someone an inch theyll take the mile. wanna know why? 1.8 AV got nerfed into the ground, and we got invincible flying HAVs Invincible really? If you cant use reason theres no point arguing with you. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2951
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 04:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
ACT1ON BASTARD wrote:Dimitri Rascolovitch wrote:
wanna know why? 1.8 AV got nerfed into the ground, and we got invincible flying HAVs
Invincible really? If you cant use reason theres no point arguing with you.
I find all the bitching that ADS are impossible to kill hilarious.
If i don't kill four a night I bother playing it's an off day. usually I kill 6-8 of the damn things in a night. |
Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
3299
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 08:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Killar-12 wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Cross Atu wrote:/Cross steals Breakin's research to use as a reason marauders should be back in the game (what? I want there to be more toys to blow upplay with ) I have very specific ideas on how to do that, balance against AV and buff dropships so that AV effective against marauders does not insta-murder them. Untanked LAVs should be considered suicide sleds. If a thread or spreadsheet/doc goes on up those be sure to give me a shout so that I see it. o7 Cheers, Cross I'll see about making something, Also Master Race... Soylent Green is made of PEOPLE. Thanks Killer, I look forward to it o7 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10laEqL4ZRXte0O5Mv_gna6Zxgt4s4yXQCOcrrEL3ORg/edit#gid=0
Not Complete but about to pass out any second now so that's everything for now.
http://evil-guide.tripod.com/
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2953
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 09:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
I need the original numbers of the old HAVs and common use solid fit examples from chromosome. Focused on tank over gank.
I need the old stats from the base marauder and enforcer hulls as well as their skill bonuses. My ideas for how to balance are based around TTK with specific weapons in each AV class. I need the numbers specifically so I can see if they can be shoehorned into the current AV/V meta without boning dropship pilots or making enforcers tougher than gunnlogi/madrugar. |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4297
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 13:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Breaking Stuff, I have been reading a lot of your posts recently and I am really starting to like you.
CCP Rattati wrote:Well they were kept the same to not break the HMG, thats the fact.
We can look at this later. That is what I thought. From an HMG balance perspective it was probably the right move.
I switched to a Sidearm Damage mod on my Burst HMG fit for a while, because with the Burst you are forced to switch to your sidearm so often, and I figured the Burst had the stopping power without needing anything extra. However, I noticed other Sentinels started beating me more consistently in 1v1 fights, so I switched back to the Heavy Damage mod. Even at 5% (well 4% as I had to downgrade with the last fitting nerf) it still makes the difference that allows me to survive with a few tics of armor rather than the other Sentinel surviving.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
|
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4297
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 13:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:The only thing current damage mods give is an illusion of improvement. This is not good and it is misleading to players who don't come here and read the forums. Damage mods with an HMG make the difference when going against another HMG heavy.
Damage mods on a high alpha weapon such as a Forge Gun would only be useful if the tank was getting away with only a few ticks of Armour left. As you say, if it takes the same number of shots, with or without the Damage modes, then it is not worth putting the damage mods on the fit. But that is more of a factor of the Forge Gun being a high Alpha weapon. It is not really a measure of whether damage mods are strong enough.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2960
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 15:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
The bonus to TTK on the HMG is negligible.
2 damage mod HMG on any suit vs a hard tank gallente or amarr sentinel alwsys loses. They have a higher % HP over all other sentinels and the mods don't overcome that fast enough.
You won't even notice the difference vs. Anything lighter and you wind up gaining more benefit from getting proficiency 5. |
Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
3303
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 22:25:00 -
[28] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I need the original numbers of the old HAVs and common use solid fit examples from chromosome. Focused on tank over gank.
I need the old stats from the base marauder and enforcer hulls as well as their skill bonuses. My ideas for how to balance are based around TTK with specific weapons in each AV class. I need the numbers specifically so I can see if they can be shoehorned into the current AV/V meta without boning dropship pilots or making enforcers tougher than gunnlogi/madrugar.
I am also going to need tank and dropship pilots who aren't entitled "Infantry need to be impotent against me" idiots to review my work and make sure I dont forget something critical.
I will need AV gunners who aren't interested in having a giant IWIN butan vs. Vehicles to do the same.
I know how I think HAVs and ADS should be balanced against forge guns for TTK. But I will need to backtrace the numbers with the swarms and PLC to make sure I don't gimp some players unintentionally in the proposal.
Finally... when I and whoever helps get done with the math...
I will need someone to help me make it so the whole thing makes sense to read.
Any volunteers? Old numbers would be Ideal *cough* *cough*
http://evil-guide.tripod.com/
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 :: [one page] |