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CamClarke Inner.Hell 78	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:24:00 - [1] - Quote This is for discussing the balance between Scouts and eWar, specifically Dampeners versus Active/Passive scanning. Weigh in, be constructive. My thoughts are below. They mostly involve math. I assume cloaks apply their 10% after all other bonuses, but I cannot find a definitive answer. I think I've finally figured out why Scouts are so infuriating, having recently specced into an Amarr Scout (Level 3 now) myself. Every single Scout can be immune or nigh-immune to eWar. Every Scout can get under a gk.0 Logistics Focused Scanner, which is the most precise scan you can have in Dust. It is more precise than an Amarr Scout's double precision passive scans (second best in game) after maximum bonuses to both suits. Dampening has no hard counter. It is ridiculous how easy it is to get the drop on someone not actively looking for a cloaked Scout while standing in the middle of a mostly flat, open field with no cover where they will be gunned down by the rifle users instead of the shotgunner. An Amarr Scout can passively scan, at best, 17.85 dB while using two Complex Precision Enhancers. A gk.0 Logistics using a Duvolle Focused Active Scanner scans at exactly 15 dB after its 25% precision bonus (20 dB base). If a Scout is dampened enough to get under a gk.0 Logistics Duvolle Focused Active Scanner cloaked, it is dampened enough to get under the Amarr Scout passive scan uncloaked. An Amarr Scout can dampen to 14.96 dB before cloak, but it sacrifices all of its low slots to do so. Even so, it can fit Extenders in the two high slots to achieve 432 HP while completely undetectable except via eyesight. It can also drop one Dampener for a plate or other low slot module of choice and remain unscannable by both passive Amarr Scout scans all the time and by a gk.0 Focused while cloaked, making them potentially quite tough. A Caldari Scout can dampen to 16.59 dB optimally. It can go lower but it is pointless since it already can avoid Amarr Scout passive scans and must use a prototype cloak to get under a gk.0 Focused anyway. Even so, they're quite hardy for a mostly undetectable Scout, able to fit 503 HP comfortably and still move fast. The Minmatar Scout gets a shorter end of the stick, as it must sacrifice all of its low slots to reach 16.38 dB. Again, a prototype cloak puts it under a gk.0 Focused, but they don't get quite as much maximum HP at only 430. Were it not for its speed and hacking bonus, this would most likely never be used by anyone but the most dedicated knifers. A Gallente Scout can triple-dampen to under 15 dB easily or double-dampen to get under while cloaked. Double-dampened puts them at 560 HP maximum without a speed sacrifice. This makes them by far the tankiest of the mostly unscannable fit Scouts. If triple-dampened, they max out at 477 HP without using speed-penalty plates, again making them the tankiest of the completely unscannable fit Scouts. So, we can see from the above that while running a prototype cloak, every Scout is capable of being unscannable, while half of them can achieve that even without a cloak for an additional low-slot sacrifice. This electronic warfare immunity combined with near visual invisibility and their own ability to pick up everything that isn't dampened on their passive scans may be too much, especially with how little each one but the Minmatar must sacrifice for this level of effectiveness. Combined with the extremely high damage of the Shotgun, it is very unlikely for any Medium to survive an encounter with a Scout, as they do not have the mobility to dodge effectively if they do survive the first shot and have a high chance of being taken by surprise. I propose a buff for either the Gallente Logistics bonus or for the Duvolle Focused Active Scanner, as Duvolle Focused Active Scanners do have crippling limitations such as very long recharge (40 seconds, tied with the Duvolle Quantum Active Scanner which tags 20/30 seconds, leaving a very long downtime window), a narrow scanning angle (60 degrees, average but Scouts have the mobility to swing around the obvious path and come from a different angle), fairly short range for an Active Scanner designed to pick up a target that can run over 8 m/s (100m), and a short tag duration (5 seconds default, 7.5 seconds on gk.0 Logistics, you have to charge their position immediately to make effective use of the scan). Duvolle Focused Active Scanners also have double the PG fitting requirements of any other variant of Active Scanner (38 CPU, 18 PG versus all of the others which use 46 CPU, 9 PG). Active Scanners are also the only piece of equipment that only benefit a squad rather than a full team, making them useless to teammates not in your squad. With all of these limitations, they should be precise enough to scan anything, no matter how dampened. Another possible solution would be to make Precision Enhancers apply their bonuses to Active Scanners, but this could possibly make Scouts useless. A gk.0 Logistics could get a potential 73.79% bonus, making the Flux and Quantum scan at 7.34 dB and making the Focused redundant and worthless comparatively. A buff to the Amarr Scout's precision would be welcome to the Amarr Scout users, but this would marginalize the use of the Duvolle Focused Active Scanner on a gk.0 Logistics. It would possibly push them into broken-tier, as passive scans are always on scanning 360 degrees and would make them a necessity for all serious squads, as the Caldari Scout was. Alternatively, increasing the stacking penalty on Profile Dampeners would discourage the use of large amounts of them and achieve a similar effect, but doing this would further encourage the use of the Assault Scout type fit. I worked out the fits and numbers using Protofits. They're all legitimate, no limits but CPU, have 1 proto weapon and 2 proto equipment. tl;dr: Dampened Scouts have no counter, current tools not good enough, buff Focused Scanner
Arcturis Vanguard Murphys-Law 278	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:03:00 - [2] - Quote With ewar being what it is and with what a scout can achieve through their ewar abilities, they are still the best choice for anyone wanting to play competitively. With the recent assault class buff, those that play PC have seen a very marginal increase to their use during PC matches but all top corps are still using scouts in abundance. Their ability to infiltrate undetected and visually difficult to see makes them beast in most situations. Heavies will always dominate compound areas of the map and will see them in abundance with a couple of logis at best offering needed reps and ammo for the fatties. Rarely do I see gallogi because of the downtime lengths of scanners and narrower l.o.s. Passives are much better because they are constant and 360-¦. I'll offer no opinions on how to "fix" the "unbalanced" feel of scouts as I do not know what the right answers are. Amarr Heavy V Amarr Assault V Caldari Scout V Caldari logistic IV Prof V HMG & FORGE Prof IV CR, SMG Prof III ScR
Rizlax Yazzax Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 404	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:11:00 - [3] - Quote In a game of counters, one side has to win. CCP chose dampening. If they were to make it scanning, someone else would be posting the exact opposite of what you have. Why dampen when something can always pick you up? It swings both ways, with no clear right answer.
ARF 1049 The Phoenix Federation 139	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:19:00 - [4] - Quote While on paper this sounds OP... Hardly any scouts heavy Ewar accept PC's Keep always alert and listen for decloak sounds etc... Besides scouts are supposed to live off of speed stealth and early awareness... I only run 1 range amp on my 5 main scout fits, I tend to run rifles so I mainly rep tank (gal) with an AR, I run the amp on my GLU, but I have no issues with scouts doing this. sure there is still assholes who run tanked scouts but no one tanks JUST Ewar man... It works better on paper than reality... Like communism... "Gallente tech with Amarr ideals swimming around in my head, I'll burn every shield tanking impurity out there."
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1150	Posted - 2014.09.04 15:28:00 - [5] - Quote I've seen a lot of post written Cam and I have to say that yours is one of the best . You speak the truth , simple and plain . Seems that you have no bias and you show points for comparison . Great work Cam . I see no agenda in what you report and it's more or less bringing a lot of issues to light , like I didn't know that precisions didn't effect the active scanners . I really thought that they would but thanks for the insight . Again .. great work . Posts like this one will be great considering the feedback and the fact that if someone was considering what to speck in , you would help them make a good decision compared to the fact that they might be going into something with no knowledge . Post like these are needed to help those who know nothing about the mechanics of the game . I hope that the discussion doesn't kill the intention . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3758	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:33:00 - [6] - Quote Here is why: Picking up a person on scan > Hiding from a scan Using a fully decked Amarr with precision forces the other scouts to give up tank and other fittings in order to beat the scans, rendering them more vulnerable. At that point, it is blind vs blind scout battles. Use your freaking eyes, and adapt. Work within a team, and dampened scouts are not such a problem. P.S. Gal do have more flexibility, but they are much less OP than they have been, there are fewer tanked Gals than there were before, and it is still an issue CCP is going to address. This includes a possible scout only penalty to standard armor plates. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Joel II X Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 3271	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:39:00 - [7] - Quote In order to dodge the Duvolle Focused on a Gk.0, one must sacrifice heavy tank (except the filthy Caldari. I don't think they'll ever get under it). Anyways, i think it's balanced. At least it doesn't take a Scout Gk.0 with all 4 CPX Dampners to dodge it.
Death Shadow117 New Age Empire. General Tso's Alliance 350	Posted - 2014.09.04 16:55:00 - [8] - Quote One thing ill say i.didnt read it all but if a scout is using damps.they are sacrificing a tank/rep mod so yes you can get under all scans but youll be paper thin. Why?
CamClarke Inner.Hell 85	Posted - 2014.09.04 18:22:00 - [9] - Quote I'm of the opinion that Dust should be balanced around PC, not pubs. Face it, most pub players are terrible. I'm not what I consider good myself and still crush the majority of pubbers. You don't see any real competitive games like DOTA or Street Fighter being balanced around the lower tier players, do you? In PC, you don't roll around in one big blue ball like you do in pubs. Those of us left outside the city have to deal with Scouts, and we need something that help us with that effectively. Even those inside have problems with them as they run around destroying ground-level uplinks unseen and generally being a huge pain, murdering Logistics and Sentinels alike. There's no point to listening for a decloak sound - by the time you hear it there's already a shotgun round in your back before you've spun around halfway. Good scouts will also continue strafing towards your back as you spin. Yes, it is true that they sacrifice a fair bit of HP to do this, but at the same time they gain a nearly unbeatable element of surprise which, combined with a Shotgun of any grade, means death. It doesn't matter how much HP you have if you can kill your would-be opponent before he even knows you're there.
Mauren NOON The Exemplars 438	Posted - 2014.09.04 18:35:00 - [10] - Quote Gal scouts are broken...no one should be unscanable.....that is all Scr and commando enthusiast. Amarrica!

Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1456	Posted - 2014.09.04 18:45:00 - [11] - Quote CamClarke wrote: T I assume cloaks apply their 10% after all other bonuses, but I cannot find a definitive answer. That assumption is correct, both using the spreadsheet that CCP provided as well as in-game tests we performed.
PARKOUR PRACTIONER D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1846	Posted - 2014.09.04 18:49:00 - [12] - Quote If i have to put more damps on to avoid you then fine, alk for that. Would like a buff to the scanner, and a cooldown decrease per level i thik would be good. If you wanna be stealthily, you have to stealth tank at the sacrifice of HP. Which is the scout role, low HP high mobility and stealth. I like your directness, if its not direct i dont understand it lol. PSN Sil4ntChaozz Anything you can do a RAPTOR can do better Scout Devotee with moments of FACEPALM
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1456	Posted - 2014.09.04 18:58:00 - [13] - Quote CamClarke wrote: An Amarr Scout can dampen to 14.96 dB before cloak, but it sacrifices all of its low slots to do so. Even so, it can fit Extenders in the two high slots to achieve 432 HP while completely undetectable except via eyesight. It can also drop one Dampener for a plate or other low slot module of choice and remain unscannable by both passive Amarr Scout scans all the time and by a gk.0 Focused while cloaked, making them potentially quite tough. A Caldari Scout can dampen to 16.59 dB optimally. It can go lower but it is pointless since it already can avoid Amarr Scout passive scans and must use a prototype cloak to get under a gk.0 Focused anyway. Even so, they're quite hardy for a mostly undetectable Scout, able to fit 503 HP comfortably and still move fast. The Minmatar Scout gets a shorter end of the stick, as it must sacrifice all of its low slots to reach 16.38 dB. Again, a prototype cloak puts it under a gk.0 Focused, but they don't get quite as much maximum HP at only 430. Were it not for its speed and hacking bonus, this would most likely never be used by anyone but the most dedicated knifers. Where did you get the dB numbers above? They do not jive with CCP nor my data (derived from Protofits). Please see this document for details: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27NTsVHhvR9akFXSUp6VDh3c0k/edit?usp=sharing In short, here are the numbers you posted above and what I believe the correct values are: Amarr @ 14.96 should be 14.73 (w/ 4 profile dampeners) which cloaks down to 13.26. You conclusion is incorrect, as it only takes 3 dampeners and a cloak to get under 15db. Caldari 16.59 -> 15.72 (w/2 profile dampeners) which cloaks down to 14.15. Your conclusions are correct. Min 16.38 ->15.85 (w/3 profile dampeners). Your conclusions are accurate. Far be it from me to correct you, particularly the day before our PC against each other, but in the pursuit of truth there are no enemies. Take care...Leadfoot
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1456	Posted - 2014.09.04 19:00:00 - [14] - Quote Looking past the above comments, I agree with your conclusion below: "This electronic warfare immunity combined with near visual invisibility and their own ability to pick up everything that isn't dampened on their passive scans may be too much, especially with how little each one but the Minmatar must sacrifice for this level of effectiveness. Combined with the extremely high damage of the Shotgun, it is very unlikely for any Medium to survive an encounter with a Scout, as they do not have the mobility to dodge effectively if they do survive the first shot and have a high chance of being taken by surprise." This is dead on correct, IMO, and much of the reason why PCs are filled with shotgun scouts, they've been the flavor of the past few months, and they more often than not top the leaderboards. There is no effective counter as the Cal/Gal scout simply tank too many HP and have too much alpha advantage. When taken alongside the surprise factor provided by cloaks, they are nary unstoppable, and this is the source of significant imbalance in the game and a prevalence of Scouts that persists at the highest level of this game.
Funkmaster Whale Seituoda Taskforce Command 2392	Posted - 2014.09.04 19:02:00 - [15] - Quote Get rid of the wallhacks. Get rid of enemy red dots appearing on your HUD so you can line and time your shots on everyone perfectly. I use a Scout and it's nonsense that I can see everyone and no one can see me. Red dots should only be appearing on your radar to signal you that there are enemies nearby and to proceed with caution. eWar shouldn't be "Ok just wait for this red dot to come around the corner and shoot him in the face." Scouts need some sort of drawback to being able to see everyone as well as being invisible. And don't say "Oh but they have low EHP!" I have like 400 EHP and I can still dominate everyone because unless they're a heavy or another invisible scout they're usually dead before they can respond. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kyoudai Furinkazan 1150	Posted - 2014.09.04 19:58:00 - [16] - Quote CamClarke wrote: I'm of the opinion that Dust should be balanced around PC, not pubs. Face it, most pub players are terrible. I'm not what I consider good myself and still crush the majority of pubbers. You don't see any real competitive games like DOTA or Street Fighter being balanced around the lower tier players, do you? In PC, you don't roll around in one big blue ball like you do in pubs. Those of us left outside the city have to deal with Scouts, and we need something that help us with that effectively. Even those inside have problems with them as they run around destroying ground-level uplinks unseen and generally being a huge pain, murdering Logistics and Sentinels alike. There's no point to listening for a decloak sound - by the time you hear it there's already a shotgun round in your back before you've spun around halfway. Good scouts will also continue strafing towards your back as you spin. Yes, it is true that they sacrifice a fair bit of HP to do this, but at the same time they gain a nearly unbeatable element of surprise which, combined with a Shotgun of any grade, means death. It doesn't matter how much HP you have if you can kill your would-be opponent before he even knows you're there. I have to disagree with you about pubs because most of the PC players play pubs and it's so much more easier to get in a pub then it is a PC match so I just can't relate with that type of opinion and pub players for the most part , squad up so your pretty much facing what you would while playing a PC match because I see pub players using their PC fits so their going " all out " when some PC players play pub matches . Not all .. and I understand that but some do take that type of attitude while playing pub matches because bottom line is , that their trying to win .. no matter what . The only " lower tier " players are those who are new alts or players in general . Even PC players that play in advanced materials play like they are using prototype so I just can't tell too much of a difference besides new players and alts . Most experienced players would not use a prototype fit in a pub match because it's truly no contest considering the match at hand in certain instances .. not so much and some play better in advanced then they would in proto so I just can't understand this ^^^ type of thought . Delta should come with a SP or infantry SP refund so that a campaign for one is not needed .
Extraneus Tenebrarum CaUsE-4-CoNcErN 72	Posted - 2014.09.04 20:13:00 - [17] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Get rid of the wallhacks. Get rid of enemy red dots appearing on your HUD so you can line and time your shots on everyone perfectly. I use a Scout and it's nonsense that I can see everyone and no one can see me. Red dots should only be appearing on your radar to signal you that there are enemies nearby and to proceed with caution. eWar shouldn't be "Ok just wait for this red dot to come around the corner and shoot him in the face." Scouts need some sort of drawback to being able to see everyone as well as being invisible. And don't say "Oh but they have low EHP!" I have like 400 EHP and I can still dominate everyone because unless they're a heavy or another invisible scout they're usually dead before they can respond. Oh but they have low eHP!
CamClarke Inner.Hell 88	Posted - 2014.09.04 20:30:00 - [18] - Quote @Leadfoot10: I was going off of whatever Protofits was telling me, but I was also swapping around certain Complex Dampeners for Enhanced Dampeners due to them having no meaningful effect on the result while saving CPU for fitting other modules, fitting them as if I would use them in the game. Basically, if I could save the CPU while still being under 15 dB cloaked or uncloaked, I did it. I thought I did say that you could drop one Dampener in favor of a different module for unscannable while cloaked on Amarr Scout. I guess it wasn't obvious since I changed the formatting of the other paragraphs.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 591	Posted - 2014.09.04 20:55:00 - [19] - Quote I think much of it will be fixed if they just have a delay on decloaking so that they can't start firing the second you hear them decloak. Situational awareness only goes so far depending on the lighting and if it's obscuring the blue sheen. Not too mention its pretty hard to see the blue sheen even in favorable light when a scout is sprinting at 9-12 m/s. I have stared intently at scouts hiding behind a supply depot before only to have them a few seconds later shotgun me in the back, and this was 3 feet from my 40" LED tv.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 591	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:04:00 - [20] - Quote Extraneus Tenebrarum wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Get rid of the wallhacks. Get rid of enemy red dots appearing on your HUD so you can line and time your shots on everyone perfectly. I use a Scout and it's nonsense that I can see everyone and no one can see me. Red dots should only be appearing on your radar to signal you that there are enemies nearby and to proceed with caution. eWar shouldn't be "Ok just wait for this red dot to come around the corner and shoot him in the face." Scouts need some sort of drawback to being able to see everyone as well as being invisible. And don't say "Oh but they have low EHP!" I have like 400 EHP and I can still dominate everyone because unless they're a heavy or another invisible scout they're usually dead before they can respond. Oh but they have low eHP! I think having some percentage close to the enemies db should give you those red triangles every couple of seconds if they are in your passive scan range, letting you know that their is an enemy nearby and their general direction. Likewise every couple of seconds it should ping the red chevron and their redberry on your scanner every couples of seconds if your precision is under their db. In other words, Ewar should work like sonar instead of wallhacks.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2543	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:05:00 - [21] - Quote The problem with passive and active scanning is that it is binary. If you slide under the scanner once you will always slide under the scanner. There is no margin for error, no blip on the radar that pops up for an instant then gone. If you can get under the scanner DB you automatically win. This is an inherently sh*t mechanic. Its also a mechanic that makes NK and SG trivial to deliver to a victim. You will see the heavy through the wall. He will never detect you unless he happens to catch a glimpse of the blur. I shoot friends and enemies in cloak till I see the blue chevron.
Michael Arck 5389	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:11:00 - [22] - Quote Scouts are like the fat kids who were picked on at school but grew up to be a successful muscle bound individual. Its funny. Archistrategos *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain*
CamClarke Inner.Hell 88	Posted - 2014.09.04 21:36:00 - [23] - Quote @Breakin Stuff: I agree. It's a terrible mechanic in its current state, but it's also something I do not think they can change with a hotfix.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2252	Posted - 2014.09.05 00:41:00 - [24] - Quote My thoughts-Dampening for scouts needs to be buffed so that we can't have our sub 400 HP suits ping on everyones radar like a 2k HP heavy with resistances. The counter for a dampened scout is plain and simple eyes and gun game.....if you keep getting killed by one, than he is simply a better player than you, and your gun game needs to be buffed and/or your situational awareness needs improvement. Dampening should always be much more powerful than precision. With precision you gain the ability to see the enemy without him seeing you, which is ridiculous, nullifies sneak attacks and any weapons other than fine rifles. With dampening, you play the game just how its supposed to be played--with your eyes. The dampened scout shouldn't ping on your radar, and you shouldn't ping on his, if you are a scout. TL;DR--Stop trying to reinstate your perma-scan crutches--it breaks the real scouts in the game by a lot. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Jace Kaisar 128	Posted - 2014.09.05 02:17:00 - [25] - Quote Rizlax Yazzax wrote: In a game of counters, one side has to win. CCP chose dampening. If they were to make it scanning, someone else would be posting the exact opposite of what you have. Why dampen when something can always pick you up? It swings both ways, with no clear right answer. This is truth. The only way to fix this is to make scans less powerful the farther away from the source. Un-hotfixable I'm a Spooky Scary Ghost Before you ask, yes this is me.
Sclompton Face-Smasher uptown456 88	Posted - 2014.09.05 04:14:00 - [26] - Quote ARF 1049 wrote: While on paper this sounds OP... Hardly any scouts heavy Ewar accept PC's Keep always alert and listen for decloak sounds etc... Besides scouts are supposed to live off of speed stealth and early awareness... I only run 1 range amp on my 5 main scout fits, I tend to run rifles so I mainly rep tank (gal) with an AR, I run the amp on my GLU, but I have no issues with scouts doing this. sure there is still assholes who run tanked scouts but no one tanks JUST Ewar man... It works better on paper than reality... Like communism... Gal scout with 2 comp damps a comp kin cat, a comp amp-enh pre (have to skill more), a comp dmod-Allotek breach shotgun, m209 assa. smg-basic cloak, rep tool is the proto suit I have never used but have in my fittings sitting there because i'm an anti proto suit type of guy that helps random blueberries... am I that different? My basic and adv are also similar to the proto fits that have a few variations Playstyle: Scout, Passionate In-bred Sniper, Support, and Enemy finder Weapon: Pro Shotty, Sniper, and Scrambler Rifle
Sclompton Face-Smasher uptown456 88	Posted - 2014.09.05 04:27:00 - [27] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Get rid of the wallhacks. Get rid of enemy red dots appearing on your HUD so you can line and time your shots on everyone perfectly. I use a Scout and it's nonsense that I can see everyone and no one can see me. Red dots should only be appearing on your radar to signal you that there are enemies nearby and to proceed with caution. eWar shouldn't be "Ok just wait for this red dot to come around the corner and shoot him in the face." Scouts need some sort of drawback to being able to see everyone as well as being invisible. And don't say "Oh but they have low EHP!" I have like 400 EHP and I can still dominate everyone because unless they're a heavy or another invisible scout they're usually dead before they can respond. WHy do you have 400 ehp in the first place there "scout"? Playstyle: Scout, Passionate In-bred Sniper, Support, and Enemy finder Weapon: Pro Shotty, Sniper, and Scrambler Rifle
Sclompton Face-Smasher uptown456 88	Posted - 2014.09.05 04:35:00 - [28] - Quote TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: Extraneus Tenebrarum wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: Get rid of the wallhacks. Get rid of enemy red dots appearing on your HUD so you can line and time your shots on everyone perfectly. I use a Scout and it's nonsense that I can see everyone and no one can see me. Red dots should only be appearing on your radar to signal you that there are enemies nearby and to proceed with caution. eWar shouldn't be "Ok just wait for this red dot to come around the corner and shoot him in the face." Scouts need some sort of drawback to being able to see everyone as well as being invisible. And don't say "Oh but they have low EHP!" I have like 400 EHP and I can still dominate everyone because unless they're a heavy or another invisible scout they're usually dead before they can respond. Oh but they have low eHP! I think having some percentage close to the enemies db should give you those red triangles every couple of seconds if they are in your passive scan range, letting you know that their is an enemy nearby and their general direction. Likewise every couple of seconds it should ping the red chevron and their redberry on your scanner every couples of seconds if your precision is under their db. In other words, Ewar should work like sonar instead of wallhacks. I'm not against that but if the ping is as annoying as the charge sniper sound I would rather get wall hacked Playstyle: Scout, Passionate In-bred Sniper, Support, and Enemy finder Weapon: Pro Shotty, Sniper, and Scrambler Rifle
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 600	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:26:00 - [29] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: My thoughts-Dampening for scouts needs to be buffed so that we can't have our sub 400 HP suits ping on everyones radar like a 2k HP heavy with resistances. The counter for a dampened scout is plain and simple eyes and gun game.....if you keep getting killed by one, than he is simply a better player than you, and your gun game needs to be buffed and/or your situational awareness needs improvement. Dampening should always be much more powerful than precision. With precision you gain the ability to see the enemy without him seeing you, which is ridiculous, nullifies sneak attacks and any weapons other than fine rifles. With dampening, you play the game just how its supposed to be played--with your eyes. The dampened scout shouldn't ping on your radar, and you shouldn't ping on his, if you are a scout. TL;DR--Stop trying to reinstate your perma-scan crutches--it breaks the real scouts in the game by a lot. Eyes don't work much of the time on cloaked scouts in any non-dark area especially when those scouts have kincats. I stare intently where I know they are and don't even see them move sometimes because the lighting and particle effects distort the would be tell tale sign of a moving cloak. Dampened scouts sure no problem, but dampened and cloaked scouts with OHKO CQC weapons that has been the problem. First strike for the only strike is what people hate about cloaked scouts at the moment. Judge's video pretty much sums it up here: Judge's Video Personally I think if there is a delay on when one can fire a weapon when deactivating a cloak the cheap tactics with the cloak will be dealt with. This will make the cloak and ambush tactic instead of a sprinting bunny hop OHKO shotgun blast before someone can even see you decloak situation. Scouts have low e/hp however they also have faster movement speed, wallhacks, and frames that are **** in the game's current hit detection with many false positives that occur when firing on them.
Mejt0 The Only Survivor. 451	Posted - 2014.09.05 13:08:00 - [30] - Quote Ill make it clear for You (community): 1. Dampeners should beat enchancers/scanners. That's the point of using them. 2. Single pice of eqiupment shouldn't detect scout that uses 2-3slots for damps and a cloak (eqiupmemt that have biggest cpu/pg reqiurments). 3. Scout without kin cat(s) is slow. That 8m/s means nothing. 4. Right now caldari scout is the only one that doesnt have any specific role. Amarr scans, gallente slay, matar hacks/slays. Caldari is ,,mech,, gallente copy (that means it's worse). 5. When player decloak, he is fully decloaked. You see that he's still cloaked, but he's not. Delay on cloaks can be added. But knowing some people there will still be qq. Caldari Loyalist Markiplier fan. Got 6815 WP only on wrecking tanks with Ion Cannon.

Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1467	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:02:00 - [31] - Quote CamClarke wrote: @Leadfoot10: I was going off of whatever Protofits was telling me, but I was also swapping around certain Complex Dampeners for Enhanced Dampeners due to them having no meaningful effect on the result while saving CPU for fitting other modules, fitting them as if I would use them in the game. Basically, if I could save the CPU while still being under 15 dB cloaked or uncloaked, I did it. I thought I did say that you could drop one Dampener in favor of a different module for unscannable while cloaked on Amarr Scout. I guess it wasn't obvious since I changed the formatting of the other paragraphs. Thanks for your reply and the correction. FYI, there are still some bugs in the "max skills" option in Protofits. You have to go in and uncheck the old scout bonuses (there are pre- and post- charlie bonuses being applied when you check "max all skills"). I made this mistake the first time I calculated my spreadsheet from Protofits, but that error has since been corrected and I'm fairly certain the spreadsheet I posted above is accurate in this regard. Both this factor, and the use of enhanced rather than complex modules could have led to the odd numbers you posted. Hope this helps....Leadfoot p.s. what a great match we had last night against you guys, although I think I set a new personal record in futility in that match...and I think Fusion just killed me again while I was typing this. :)
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1467	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:09:00 - [32] - Quote Jace Kaisar wrote: Rizlax Yazzax wrote: In a game of counters, one side has to win. CCP chose dampening. If they were to make it scanning, someone else would be posting the exact opposite of what you have. Why dampen when something can always pick you up? It swings both ways, with no clear right answer. This is truth. The only way to fix this is to make scans less powerful the farther away from the source. Un-hotfixable I agree with you both, however I would contend the larger problem is that the Gal (and, to a lesser extent the Amarr and Cal) scouts can still evade scans and tank enough eHP to still be dominant. The Gal scout is simply not weak enough after it gets under all scans (85hp when it beats the 15dB Gallogi scanner, and a whopping 255 addl hp to beat the 18dB Amarr scout's passives), and as a result cloaked scouts with shotguns and CRs dominate PCs. The wise Gal scout runs 0 dampeners (which defeats all base scouts), and if he gets scanned he runs a suit with 2 dampeners which evades all passives, and simply cloaks when he gets the "You have been scanned" message....and nobody picks him up.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1467	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:29:00 - [33] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: My thoughts-Dampening for scouts needs to be buffed so that we can't have our sub 400 HP suits ping on everyones radar like a 2k HP heavy with resistances. The counter for a dampened scout is plain and simple eyes and gun game.....if you keep getting killed by one, than he is simply a better player than you, and your gun game needs to be buffed and/or your situational awareness needs improvement. Dampening should always be much more powerful than precision. With precision you gain the ability to see the enemy without him seeing you, which is ridiculous, nullifies sneak attacks and any weapons other than fine rifles. With dampening, you play the game just how its supposed to be played--with your eyes. The dampened scout shouldn't ping on your radar, and you shouldn't ping on his, if you are a scout. TL;DR--Stop trying to reinstate your perma-scan crutches--it breaks the real scouts in the game by a lot. And I'm sure scouts don't use those same "perma-scan crutches" when running a scout against medium/heavy suits, do they? Of course they do. So why is it a "perma-scan crutch" when scouts do it to other scouts, but not when scouts do it to every other suit in the game? Either it's a crutch for everyone or nobody.
CamClarke Inner.Hell 91	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:54:00 - [34] - Quote @Leadfoot10: Yeah, I did untick the pre-Charlie Scouts in the All 5s character before making those fits, as I spotted a suspicious similarity between Amarr and Caldari Scout passive scan precision when mucking about. The strange dB numbers are all just from changing out certain Complex Dampeners for Enhanced and even a Basic on one of Gallente Scout fits I believe. They all ended up at or under 16.59 dB, the magic number for getting under 15 while cloaked. I did absolutely awful in that PC last night. Your scouts swung around WAY wide, I didn't even get a "Some Margin Of Error" using my early warning system before they were on me at home point. Guess I need to go quadruple scans so I can check the flanks more often, "must have one uplink" be damned. Didn't help that a bunch of the outside people DC'd mid-battle. I'm actually still pretty pissed off about that match. You kinda fell for Gav's bait though, he's kind of the resident forum troll at the moment. So he gets a 3/10 for making someone give a serious reply. If Gav's serious though, then my god, the level of hypocrisy is astounding. A quadruple Focused Active Scanner fit can't even permascan anyway - maximum duration 30 seconds across four, recharge 40 seconds for the first one in the cycle. It'd take two Gallente Logistics running 3 Focused Scanners each and coordinating timing to permascan scouts if they even could scan them in the first place. One more thing, if Active Scanners are made for scanning, and Dampeners are made for avoiding Active/Passive Scanners, then what is the Focused Active Scanner for other than picking up Dampened Scouts? Does it even have a purpose if it cannot do its job?
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 3786	Posted - 2014.09.05 20:00:00 - [35] - Quote @ Cam Gav is a little over zealous in his ferver for his Minja. He is serious, but you can always count on him being serious in the same hyperbolic way. He is young, and many of us were like that in our youth. Otherwise he is a good guy. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2266	Posted - 2014.09.06 00:16:00 - [36] - Quote TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: My thoughts-Dampening for scouts needs to be buffed so that we can't have our sub 400 HP suits ping on everyones radar like a 2k HP heavy with resistances. The counter for a dampened scout is plain and simple eyes and gun game.....if you keep getting killed by one, than he is simply a better player than you, and your gun game needs to be buffed and/or your situational awareness needs improvement. Dampening should always be much more powerful than precision. With precision you gain the ability to see the enemy without him seeing you, which is ridiculous, nullifies sneak attacks and any weapons other than fine rifles. With dampening, you play the game just how its supposed to be played--with your eyes. The dampened scout shouldn't ping on your radar, and you shouldn't ping on his, if you are a scout. TL;DR--Stop trying to reinstate your perma-scan crutches--it breaks the real scouts in the game by a lot. Eyes don't work much of the time on cloaked scouts in any non-dark area especially when those scouts have kincats. I stare intently where I know they are and don't even see them move sometimes because the lighting and particle effects distort the would be tell tale sign of a moving cloak. Dampened scouts sure no problem, but dampened and cloaked scouts with OHKO CQC weapons that has been the problem. First strike for the only strike is what people hate about cloaked scouts at the moment. Judge's video pretty much sums it up here: Judge's Video Personally I think if there is a delay on when one can fire a weapon when deactivating a cloak the cheap tactics with the cloak will be dealt with. This will make the cloak a flanking tactic instead of a sprinting bunny hop OHKO shotgun blast before someone can even see you decloak situation. Scouts have low e/hp however they also have faster movement speed, wallhacks, and frames that are **** in the game's current hit detection with many false positives that occur when firing on them. I do love it when scouts are hypocritical though and I just run a shotgun cloak and sneak up on their shotgun cloak and ohko them. "I'm sorry didn't you see me? Wasn't I obvious?!" You obviously haven't played me. The fact is, SG hit detection is so bad that even I in my MINMITAR scout can survive a shot and turn around and blap you. Also, people who you sneak up on from behind you didn't need the cloak for in the first place "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2266	Posted - 2014.09.06 00:23:00 - [37] - Quote CamClarke wrote: @Leadfoot10: Yeah, I did untick the pre-Charlie Scouts in the All 5s character before making those fits, as I spotted a suspicious similarity between Amarr and Caldari Scout passive scan precision when mucking about. The strange dB numbers are all just from changing out certain Complex Dampeners for Enhanced and even a Basic on one of Gallente Scout fits I believe. They all ended up at or under 16.59 dB, the magic number for getting under 15 while cloaked. For the uncloaked fits under 15 dB, why bother dampening even more if you can make it just under 15 db with a weaker dampener? Save yourself the CPU for a better sidearm/optional module. I did absolutely awful in that PC last night. Your scouts swung around WAY wide, I didn't even get a "Some Margin Of Error" using my early warning system before they were on me at home point. Guess I need to go quadruple scans so I can check the flanks more often, "must have one uplink" be damned. Didn't help that a bunch of the outside people DC'd mid-battle. I'm actually still pretty pissed off about that match. You kinda fell for Gav's bait though, he's kind of the resident forum troll at the moment. So he gets a 3/10 for making someone give a serious reply. If Gav's serious though, then my god, the level of hypocrisy is astounding. A quadruple Focused Active Scanner fit can't even permascan anyway - maximum duration 30 seconds across four, recharge 40 seconds for the first one in the cycle. It'd take two Gallente Logistics running 3 Focused Scanners each and coordinating timing to permascan scouts if they even could scan them in the first place. One more thing, if Active Scanners are made for scanning, and Dampeners are made for avoiding Active/Passive Scanners, then what is the Focused Active Scanner for other than picking up Dampened Scouts? Does it even have a purpose if it cannot do its job? Scanning isn't a counter--its a flat out I-WIN button if you scan a scout. Period. The counter to dampening has always been eyes and the ability to fire your weapon. Your target has lower HP than you and most likely less DPS. If you can always ping him with him only sometimes pinging you, you have a huge imbalance. Yes passive scans are broken. Yes they need a fix. No, you're fix is not the one, its basically asking for med-frame 514 except worse all over again. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
CamClarke Inner.Hell 91	Posted - 2014.09.06 01:15:00 - [38] - Quote So one specific piece of equipment on one specific suit of one specific race with a very long list of limitations and weaknesses is not limiting enough to be considered balanced to you? What would you propose then?
CamClarke Inner.Hell 92	Posted - 2014.09.06 09:10:00 - [39] - Quote Apologies for double post, but I feel a bump is needed. I just had a thought. The LP stores have equipment that is superior to their best ISK versions. The Imperial Viziam Drop Uplink (150 LP one), the State Ishukone Nanite Injector, and the Republic Boundless Repair Tool. What if my suggested 17 dB Focused Active Scanner were an LP store item for the Gallente? They are the only race without a superior piece of equipment in their LP store, and would make it a bit more troublesome to acquire and discourage common usage in pubs. Do not say the Federation CreoDron Active Scanner is good. You're better off with a Quantum or Flux.


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