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CamClarke
Inner.Hell
78
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Posted - 2014.09.04 14:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is for discussing the balance between Scouts and eWar, specifically Dampeners versus Active/Passive scanning. Weigh in, be constructive. My thoughts are below. They mostly involve math. I assume cloaks apply their 10% after all other bonuses, but I cannot find a definitive answer.
I think I've finally figured out why Scouts are so infuriating, having recently specced into an Amarr Scout (Level 3 now) myself.
Every single Scout can be immune or nigh-immune to eWar. Every Scout can get under a gk.0 Logistics Focused Scanner, which is the most precise scan you can have in Dust. It is more precise than an Amarr Scout's double precision passive scans (second best in game) after maximum bonuses to both suits.
Dampening has no hard counter. It is ridiculous how easy it is to get the drop on someone not actively looking for a cloaked Scout while standing in the middle of a mostly flat, open field with no cover where they will be gunned down by the rifle users instead of the shotgunner.
An Amarr Scout can passively scan, at best, 17.85 dB while using two Complex Precision Enhancers. A gk.0 Logistics using a Duvolle Focused Active Scanner scans at exactly 15 dB after its 25% precision bonus (20 dB base). If a Scout is dampened enough to get under a gk.0 Logistics Duvolle Focused Active Scanner cloaked, it is dampened enough to get under the Amarr Scout passive scan uncloaked.
An Amarr Scout can dampen to 14.96 dB before cloak, but it sacrifices all of its low slots to do so. Even so, it can fit Extenders in the two high slots to achieve 432 HP while completely undetectable except via eyesight. It can also drop one Dampener for a plate or other low slot module of choice and remain unscannable by both passive Amarr Scout scans all the time and by a gk.0 Focused while cloaked, making them potentially quite tough.
A Caldari Scout can dampen to 16.59 dB optimally. It can go lower but it is pointless since it already can avoid Amarr Scout passive scans and must use a prototype cloak to get under a gk.0 Focused anyway. Even so, they're quite hardy for a mostly undetectable Scout, able to fit 503 HP comfortably and still move fast.
The Minmatar Scout gets a shorter end of the stick, as it must sacrifice all of its low slots to reach 16.38 dB. Again, a prototype cloak puts it under a gk.0 Focused, but they don't get quite as much maximum HP at only 430. Were it not for its speed and hacking bonus, this would most likely never be used by anyone but the most dedicated knifers.
A Gallente Scout can triple-dampen to under 15 dB easily or double-dampen to get under while cloaked. Double-dampened puts them at 560 HP maximum without a speed sacrifice. This makes them by far the tankiest of the mostly unscannable fit Scouts. If triple-dampened, they max out at 477 HP without using speed-penalty plates, again making them the tankiest of the completely unscannable fit Scouts.
So, we can see from the above that while running a prototype cloak, every Scout is capable of being unscannable, while half of them can achieve that even without a cloak for an additional low-slot sacrifice.
This electronic warfare immunity combined with near visual invisibility and their own ability to pick up everything that isn't dampened on their passive scans may be too much, especially with how little each one but the Minmatar must sacrifice for this level of effectiveness. Combined with the extremely high damage of the Shotgun, it is very unlikely for any Medium to survive an encounter with a Scout, as they do not have the mobility to dodge effectively if they do survive the first shot and have a high chance of being taken by surprise.
I propose a buff for either the Gallente Logistics bonus or for the Duvolle Focused Active Scanner, as Duvolle Focused Active Scanners do have crippling limitations such as very long recharge (40 seconds, tied with the Duvolle Quantum Active Scanner which tags 20/30 seconds, leaving a very long downtime window), a narrow scanning angle (60 degrees, average but Scouts have the mobility to swing around the obvious path and come from a different angle), fairly short range for an Active Scanner designed to pick up a target that can run over 8 m/s (100m), and a short tag duration (5 seconds default, 7.5 seconds on gk.0 Logistics, you have to charge their position immediately to make effective use of the scan). Duvolle Focused Active Scanners also have double the PG fitting requirements of any other variant of Active Scanner (38 CPU, 18 PG versus all of the others which use 46 CPU, 9 PG). Active Scanners are also the only piece of equipment that only benefit a squad rather than a full team, making them useless to teammates not in your squad. With all of these limitations, they should be precise enough to scan anything, no matter how dampened.
Another possible solution would be to make Precision Enhancers apply their bonuses to Active Scanners, but this could possibly make Scouts useless. A gk.0 Logistics could get a potential 73.79% bonus, making the Flux and Quantum scan at 7.34 dB and making the Focused redundant and worthless comparatively.
A buff to the Amarr Scout's precision would be welcome to the Amarr Scout users, but this would marginalize the use of the Duvolle Focused Active Scanner on a gk.0 Logistics. It would possibly push them into broken-tier, as passive scans are always on scanning 360 degrees and would make them a necessity for all serious squads, as the Caldari Scout was.
Alternatively, increasing the stacking penalty on Profile Dampeners would discourage the use of large amounts of them and achieve a similar effect, but doing this would further encourage the use of the Assault Scout type fit.
I worked out the fits and numbers using Protofits. They're all legitimate, no limits but CPU, have 1 proto weapon and 2 proto equipment.
tl;dr: Dampened Scouts have no counter, current tools not good enough, buff Focused Scanner |
CamClarke
Inner.Hell
85
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Posted - 2014.09.04 18:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm of the opinion that Dust should be balanced around PC, not pubs. Face it, most pub players are terrible. I'm not what I consider good myself and still crush the majority of pubbers. You don't see any real competitive games like DOTA or Street Fighter being balanced around the lower tier players, do you?
In PC, you don't roll around in one big blue ball like you do in pubs. Those of us left outside the city have to deal with Scouts, and we need something that help us with that effectively. Even those inside have problems with them as they run around destroying ground-level uplinks unseen and generally being a huge pain, murdering Logistics and Sentinels alike.
There's no point to listening for a decloak sound - by the time you hear it there's already a shotgun round in your back before you've spun around halfway. Good scouts will also continue strafing towards your back as you spin.
Yes, it is true that they sacrifice a fair bit of HP to do this, but at the same time they gain a nearly unbeatable element of surprise which, combined with a Shotgun of any grade, means death. It doesn't matter how much HP you have if you can kill your would-be opponent before he even knows you're there. |
CamClarke
Inner.Hell
88
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Posted - 2014.09.04 20:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
@Leadfoot10:
I was going off of whatever Protofits was telling me, but I was also swapping around certain Complex Dampeners for Enhanced Dampeners due to them having no meaningful effect on the result while saving CPU for fitting other modules, fitting them as if I would use them in the game. Basically, if I could save the CPU while still being under 15 dB cloaked or uncloaked, I did it.
I thought I did say that you could drop one Dampener in favor of a different module for unscannable while cloaked on Amarr Scout. I guess it wasn't obvious since I changed the formatting of the other paragraphs. |
CamClarke
Inner.Hell
88
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
@Breakin Stuff: I agree. It's a terrible mechanic in its current state, but it's also something I do not think they can change with a hotfix. |
CamClarke
Inner.Hell
91
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 16:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
@Leadfoot10:
Yeah, I did untick the pre-Charlie Scouts in the All 5s character before making those fits, as I spotted a suspicious similarity between Amarr and Caldari Scout passive scan precision when mucking about. The strange dB numbers are all just from changing out certain Complex Dampeners for Enhanced and even a Basic on one of Gallente Scout fits I believe. They all ended up at or under 16.59 dB, the magic number for getting under 15 while cloaked.
I did absolutely awful in that PC last night. Your scouts swung around WAY wide, I didn't even get a "Some Margin Of Error" using my early warning system before they were on me at home point. Guess I need to go quadruple scans so I can check the flanks more often, "must have one uplink" be damned. Didn't help that a bunch of the outside people DC'd mid-battle. I'm actually still pretty pissed off about that match.
You kinda fell for Gav's bait though, he's kind of the resident forum troll at the moment. So he gets a 3/10 for making someone give a serious reply. If Gav's serious though, then my god, the level of hypocrisy is astounding. A quadruple Focused Active Scanner fit can't even permascan anyway - maximum duration 30 seconds across four, recharge 40 seconds for the first one in the cycle. It'd take two Gallente Logistics running 3 Focused Scanners each and coordinating timing to permascan scouts if they even could scan them in the first place.
One more thing, if Active Scanners are made for scanning, and Dampeners are made for avoiding Active/Passive Scanners, then what is the Focused Active Scanner for other than picking up Dampened Scouts? Does it even have a purpose if it cannot do its job? |
CamClarke
Inner.Hell
91
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 01:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
So one specific piece of equipment on one specific suit of one specific race with a very long list of limitations and weaknesses is not limiting enough to be considered balanced to you? What would you propose then? |
CamClarke
Inner.Hell
92
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 09:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Apologies for double post, but I feel a bump is needed.
I just had a thought. The LP stores have equipment that is superior to their best ISK versions. The Imperial Viziam Drop Uplink (150 LP one), the State Ishukone Nanite Injector, and the Republic Boundless Repair Tool. What if my suggested 17 dB Focused Active Scanner were an LP store item for the Gallente? They are the only race without a superior piece of equipment in their LP store, and would make it a bit more troublesome to acquire and discourage common usage in pubs.
Do not say the Federation CreoDron Active Scanner is good. You're better off with a Quantum or Flux. |
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