DUST Search - Regarding Scouts and eWar

CamClarke wrote:

An Amarr Scout can dampen to 14.96 dB before cloak, but it sacrifices all of its low slots to do so. Even so, it can fit Extenders in the two high slots to achieve 432 HP while completely undetectable except via eyesight. It can also drop one Dampener for a plate or other low slot module of choice and remain unscannable by both passive Amarr Scout scans all the time and by a gk.0 Focused while cloaked, making them potentially quite tough.

A Caldari Scout can dampen to 16.59 dB optimally. It can go lower but it is pointless since it already can avoid Amarr Scout passive scans and must use a prototype cloak to get under a gk.0 Focused anyway. Even so, they're quite hardy for a mostly undetectable Scout, able to fit 503 HP comfortably and still move fast.

The Minmatar Scout gets a shorter end of the stick, as it must sacrifice all of its low slots to reach 16.38 dB. Again, a prototype cloak puts it under a gk.0 Focused, but they don't get quite as much maximum HP at only 430. Were it not for its speed and hacking bonus, this would most likely never be used by anyone but the most dedicated knifers.


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Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1456	Posted - 2014.09.04 18:45:00 - [1] - Quote CamClarke wrote: T I assume cloaks apply their 10% after all other bonuses, but I cannot find a definitive answer. That assumption is correct, both using the spreadsheet that CCP provided as well as in-game tests we performed.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1456	Posted - 2014.09.04 18:58:00 - [2] - Quote CamClarke wrote: An Amarr Scout can dampen to 14.96 dB before cloak, but it sacrifices all of its low slots to do so. Even so, it can fit Extenders in the two high slots to achieve 432 HP while completely undetectable except via eyesight. It can also drop one Dampener for a plate or other low slot module of choice and remain unscannable by both passive Amarr Scout scans all the time and by a gk.0 Focused while cloaked, making them potentially quite tough. A Caldari Scout can dampen to 16.59 dB optimally. It can go lower but it is pointless since it already can avoid Amarr Scout passive scans and must use a prototype cloak to get under a gk.0 Focused anyway. Even so, they're quite hardy for a mostly undetectable Scout, able to fit 503 HP comfortably and still move fast. The Minmatar Scout gets a shorter end of the stick, as it must sacrifice all of its low slots to reach 16.38 dB. Again, a prototype cloak puts it under a gk.0 Focused, but they don't get quite as much maximum HP at only 430. Were it not for its speed and hacking bonus, this would most likely never be used by anyone but the most dedicated knifers. Where did you get the dB numbers above? They do not jive with CCP nor my data (derived from Protofits). Please see this document for details: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27NTsVHhvR9akFXSUp6VDh3c0k/edit?usp=sharing In short, here are the numbers you posted above and what I believe the correct values are: Amarr @ 14.96 should be 14.73 (w/ 4 profile dampeners) which cloaks down to 13.26. You conclusion is incorrect, as it only takes 3 dampeners and a cloak to get under 15db. Caldari 16.59 -> 15.72 (w/2 profile dampeners) which cloaks down to 14.15. Your conclusions are correct. Min 16.38 ->15.85 (w/3 profile dampeners). Your conclusions are accurate. Far be it from me to correct you, particularly the day before our PC against each other, but in the pursuit of truth there are no enemies. Take care...Leadfoot
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1456	Posted - 2014.09.04 19:00:00 - [3] - Quote Looking past the above comments, I agree with your conclusion below: "This electronic warfare immunity combined with near visual invisibility and their own ability to pick up everything that isn't dampened on their passive scans may be too much, especially with how little each one but the Minmatar must sacrifice for this level of effectiveness. Combined with the extremely high damage of the Shotgun, it is very unlikely for any Medium to survive an encounter with a Scout, as they do not have the mobility to dodge effectively if they do survive the first shot and have a high chance of being taken by surprise." This is dead on correct, IMO, and much of the reason why PCs are filled with shotgun scouts, they've been the flavor of the past few months, and they more often than not top the leaderboards. There is no effective counter as the Cal/Gal scout simply tank too many HP and have too much alpha advantage. When taken alongside the surprise factor provided by cloaks, they are nary unstoppable, and this is the source of significant imbalance in the game and a prevalence of Scouts that persists at the highest level of this game.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1467	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:02:00 - [4] - Quote CamClarke wrote: @Leadfoot10: I was going off of whatever Protofits was telling me, but I was also swapping around certain Complex Dampeners for Enhanced Dampeners due to them having no meaningful effect on the result while saving CPU for fitting other modules, fitting them as if I would use them in the game. Basically, if I could save the CPU while still being under 15 dB cloaked or uncloaked, I did it. I thought I did say that you could drop one Dampener in favor of a different module for unscannable while cloaked on Amarr Scout. I guess it wasn't obvious since I changed the formatting of the other paragraphs. Thanks for your reply and the correction. FYI, there are still some bugs in the "max skills" option in Protofits. You have to go in and uncheck the old scout bonuses (there are pre- and post- charlie bonuses being applied when you check "max all skills"). I made this mistake the first time I calculated my spreadsheet from Protofits, but that error has since been corrected and I'm fairly certain the spreadsheet I posted above is accurate in this regard. Both this factor, and the use of enhanced rather than complex modules could have led to the odd numbers you posted. Hope this helps....Leadfoot p.s. what a great match we had last night against you guys, although I think I set a new personal record in futility in that match...and I think Fusion just killed me again while I was typing this. :)
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1467	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:09:00 - [5] - Quote Jace Kaisar wrote: Rizlax Yazzax wrote: In a game of counters, one side has to win. CCP chose dampening. If they were to make it scanning, someone else would be posting the exact opposite of what you have. Why dampen when something can always pick you up? It swings both ways, with no clear right answer. This is truth. The only way to fix this is to make scans less powerful the farther away from the source. Un-hotfixable I agree with you both, however I would contend the larger problem is that the Gal (and, to a lesser extent the Amarr and Cal) scouts can still evade scans and tank enough eHP to still be dominant. The Gal scout is simply not weak enough after it gets under all scans (85hp when it beats the 15dB Gallogi scanner, and a whopping 255 addl hp to beat the 18dB Amarr scout's passives), and as a result cloaked scouts with shotguns and CRs dominate PCs. The wise Gal scout runs 0 dampeners (which defeats all base scouts), and if he gets scanned he runs a suit with 2 dampeners which evades all passives, and simply cloaks when he gets the "You have been scanned" message....and nobody picks him up.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1467	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:29:00 - [6] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: My thoughts-Dampening for scouts needs to be buffed so that we can't have our sub 400 HP suits ping on everyones radar like a 2k HP heavy with resistances. The counter for a dampened scout is plain and simple eyes and gun game.....if you keep getting killed by one, than he is simply a better player than you, and your gun game needs to be buffed and/or your situational awareness needs improvement. Dampening should always be much more powerful than precision. With precision you gain the ability to see the enemy without him seeing you, which is ridiculous, nullifies sneak attacks and any weapons other than fine rifles. With dampening, you play the game just how its supposed to be played--with your eyes. The dampened scout shouldn't ping on your radar, and you shouldn't ping on his, if you are a scout. TL;DR--Stop trying to reinstate your perma-scan crutches--it breaks the real scouts in the game by a lot. And I'm sure scouts don't use those same "perma-scan crutches" when running a scout against medium/heavy suits, do they? Of course they do. So why is it a "perma-scan crutch" when scouts do it to other scouts, but not when scouts do it to every other suit in the game? Either it's a crutch for everyone or nobody.