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Pvt Numnutz
Prophets of the Velocirapture
1775
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Posted - 2014.08.13 06:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
At first I really couldn't understand the reasoning behind it but after talking to some friends I realized it may actually be warranted. We all know about the swarm buff and 'Nerf' and a lot of swarmers have pointed this out in relation to the python buff. Proto swarms are gonna have their damage reduces by some thing like 20hp, not all that bad.
The reason I'm thinking it won't be as bad as everyone thinks is because damage mods are getting a buff.
That more than compensates for the 20hp proto swarms are loosing and should keep the dropship forge gun engagement the same. Since std and adv swarms are getting buffed on top of this the average merc will be able to make a much more powerful av fit. I might even make a std swarm suit.....nah I'm having to much fun with my forge
I haven't done the math, too tired and don't know the numbers off hand. Since charlie is dropping tomorrow I suppose we will just wait and see how it works out. But I'm thinking the sky may not fall just quite yet.
Master Skyshark rider
Kaalaka dakka tamer
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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
3920
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Posted - 2014.08.13 09:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
hurr durr pythons will still go up in flames vs a incubus. The buff means you can take one and a half small rail hits more before blowing up.
They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of:
"GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
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Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V.
1751
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Posted - 2014.08.13 09:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hvy DMG mods are staying the same to prevent more HMG complaints so I wouldn't get to excited.
Amarr: Assault V, Scout V, Sentinel V, Commando IV, Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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Pvt Numnutz
Prophets of the Velocirapture
1775
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Posted - 2014.08.13 09:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:hurr durr pythons will still go up in flames vs a incubus. The buff means you can take one and a half small rail hits more before blowing up. I was talking about av v python but okay thanks for sharing.
Vitharr I forgot that the heavy damage mods aren't changing. Though I just looked at the charlie patch notes and the python buff was crossed off so it would seem it doesn't matter anyway.
Master Skyshark rider
Kaalaka dakka tamer
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Repe Susi
Rautaleijona
1363
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Posted - 2014.08.13 10:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:At first I really couldn't understand the reasoning behind it but after talking to some friends I realized it may actually be warranted. We all know about the swarm buff and 'Nerf' and a lot of swarmers have pointed this out in relation to the python buff. Proto swarms are gonna have their damage reduces by some thing like 20hp, not all that bad. The reason I'm thinking it won't be as bad as everyone thinks is because damage mods are getting a buff. That more than compensates for the 20hp proto swarms are loosing and should keep the dropship forge gun engagement the same. Since std and adv swarms are getting buffed on top of this the average merc will be able to make a much more powerful av fit. I might even make a std swarm suit.....nah I'm having to much fun with my forge I haven't done the math, too tired and don't know the numbers off hand. Since charlie is dropping tomorrow I suppose we will just wait and see how it works out. But I'm thinking the sky may not fall just quite yet.
But the damage mod buff isn't enough to compensate the swarms nerf: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2298351#post2298351
Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. ~ Isaac Asimov
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Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
2689
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Posted - 2014.08.13 10:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Swarms were changed, damage mods were changed. Personally, I felt that the Python buff would make assessing the other changes harder. On paper the python does need a buff. Its ability to Alpha-withstand a forge is very low compared to the incubus, buts its swarm resistance is better.
A 500hp Python buff MAY have seen balanced forge alpha but too much swarm resistance. A buff is still very much on the agenda though. We just need to make sure the balance is done well. I know this is frustrating for pilots. The more cautious approach means our ISK getting lost. But we must avoid making any changes until we are sure of the result. Super OP pythons would ruin games for many at the benefit of the few.
I spoke with many pilots. Including the OP. Top rated (according to forum lists and to sources in high performance groups) pilots were against the change, fearing it was OP. However those specing into the ADS as new pilots, whose skills leave them with less defense were for it. This leaves a dilemma. Balance the lower tier with the buff but OP the top tier. More thought and consideration is needed to address this.
it is frustrating for pilots I know. Militia swarms got a decent buff, and they are free to all. Too many things have changed (minmandos in particular) for us to act to hastily. I am doing a comprehensive look at AV again after charlie. None of my assessment will be NDA. So I will share everything I think about it on my youtube and the new external CPM hub.
Email Me [email protected]
Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
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Malleus Malificorum
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
56
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Posted - 2014.08.13 10:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nice to hear you're not being gagged or censored much. |
Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
2690
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 10:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Malleus Malificorum wrote:Nice to hear you're not being gagged or censored much.
Anything in the game is Public domain, and I can comment freely on it. But, for EXAMPLE... lets imagine, and this is a fictional example, that Jets and jetpacks were coming in delta . I couldn't comment in an AV assessment that swarms were readjusted like this because of the new vehicles in delta. But I can look at what we have, what I think works what does not and put that out there.
We don't want me taking those opinions to CCP without putting them out for review and comment first. That way despotism lies.
Email Me [email protected]
Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
11669
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Posted - 2014.08.13 10:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
I wouldn't mind it so much if proto swarms with triple damage mods were actually a threat to a python.
From my field experience, even when firing at point blank, the pilot still has a VERY high chance to escape the third swarm.
Most fitted pythons now days require 5~ swarms. So basically, unkillable.
And yet the python pilot can do a "bombing run" and instantly blap the AV person.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
2690
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Posted - 2014.08.13 11:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:I wouldn't mind it so much if proto swarms with triple damage mods were actually a threat to a python.
From my field experience, even when firing at point blank, the pilot still has a VERY high chance to escape the third swarm.
Most fitted pythons now days require 5~ swarms. So basically, unkillable.
And yet the python pilot can do a "bombing run" and instantly blap the AV person.
There are issues with the first part of your post, but I cannot address them properly here until I have collated samples from charlie. However I can address the second point. That :
Cat Merc wrote:And yet the python pilot can do a "bombing run" and instantly blap the AV person.
This video from last night shows a very common issue with fighting AV in the way you mention. I cannot just do a bombing run easily, the video clearly proves that return fire to swarms is complicated and not easy. As you can see I have no idea where to shoot. Pilots most times are fighting invisible people, AV is not. We cannot just keep pretending this does not effect the AV - vehicle interaction and balance.
We have to account for this, from both sides. This applies to any bombing run, AV or not. most times pilots have no idea there are targets to shoot. Infantry just does not render.
Email Me [email protected]
Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
1995
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Posted - 2014.08.13 11:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
There needs to be more clear av options. Its very hard to balance the existing av against dropships when both viable options are bonused against armor. We have no clear shield cracker AV versus dropships. This is why caldari dropships are preferred.
The first person to seriouspost the plasma cannon will be mocked without mercy. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
3735
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Posted - 2014.08.13 12:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Swarms were changed, damage mods were changed. Personally, I felt that the Python buff would make assessing the other changes harder. On paper the python does need a buff. Its ability to Alpha-withstand a forge is very low compared to the incubus, buts its swarm resistance is better.
A 500hp Python buff MAY have seen balanced forge alpha but too much swarm resistance. A buff is still very much on the agenda though. We just need to make sure the balance is done well. I know this is frustrating for pilots. The more cautious approach means our ISK getting lost. But we must avoid making any changes until we are sure of the result. Super OP pythons would ruin games for many at the benefit of the few.
I spoke with many pilots. Including the OP. Top rated (according to forum lists and to sources in high performance groups) pilots were against the change, fearing it was OP. However those specing into the ADS as new pilots, whose skills leave them with less defense were for it. This leaves a dilemma. Balance the lower tier with the buff but OP the top tier. More thought and consideration is needed to address this.
it is frustrating for pilots I know. Militia swarms got a decent buff, and they are free to all. Too many things have changed (minmandos in particular) for us to act to hastily. I am doing a comprehensive look at AV again after charlie. None of my assessment will be NDA. So I will share everything I think about it on my youtube and the new external CPM hub.
Swarms were buffed due to damage mods buffed and also each level has 4 missiles so that is a buff for adv/proto players since pilots dont have a clue if its proto anymore and std/adv swarms now hit harder that before so its a big overall buff to swarms
Most pilots would agree to the ADS price lowering and free 500hp buff because frankly its not OP and rarely changes much except you can take more ADS out for a spin
Super OP pythons only exist in PUB games since the match making is non exist and its most likely 2 squads vs academy noobs, play PC and you should realise if you ever play it is that it requires the skill of a top top top pilot to make it useful
Mlt/std/adv got a basic damage buff, proto/adv now look like std with 4 missiles and better damage mods offset the base damage nerf the proto got so its a buff
Thanks for doing nothing, again |
Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
2690
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Posted - 2014.08.13 12:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Many pilots were consulted, some were not.
Email Me [email protected]
Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
4001
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Posted - 2014.08.13 12:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Pilots most times are fighting invisible people, AV is not. We cannot just keep pretending this does not effect the AV - vehicle interaction and balance.
We have to account for this, from both sides. This applies to any bombing run, AV or not. most times pilots have no idea there are targets to shoot. Infantry just does not render.
Three Quick Questions, Your Honor:
1. At approximately what distance do infantry render? 2. At approximately what distance do infantry render once painted by an Active Scanner? 3. Do nanohive "bubbles" render at longer distances (i.e. homing beacons)?
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
2692
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Posted - 2014.08.13 12:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Pilots most times are fighting invisible people, AV is not. We cannot just keep pretending this does not effect the AV - vehicle interaction and balance.
We have to account for this, from both sides. This applies to any bombing run, AV or not. most times pilots have no idea there are targets to shoot. Infantry just does not render. Three Questions, Your Honor: 1. At approximately what distance do infantry render? 2. At approximately what distance do infantry render once painted by an Active Scanner? 3. Do nanohive "bubbles" render at longer distances (i.e. homing beacons)?
1) 80m is an average. But often, as in that video it is much less. 50m is common for pop in. i mean check this turrent...im kidding.. turret out. 2) Painted targets do not render, but the chevron does. this happens at the scanners range. 3) Yes they do.
Email Me [email protected]
Twitter @Judge_EVELegion
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Pvt Numnutz
Prophets of the Velocirapture
1776
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 20:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cool beans judge, nice white tag glad to hear you'll be keeping up with your videos. The python buff may have been too much as you say, in fact I have been against for quite some time. The safest course of action is to keep them where they are and see how the swarm changes work out, then buff as needed if at all. Gonna hop on and see how it is, I'll be sure to leave some feed back for you somewhere.
Master Skyshark rider
Kaalaka dakka tamer
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Pvt Numnutz
Prophets of the Velocirapture
1776
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 20:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:There needs to be more clear av options. Its very hard to balance the existing av against dropships when both viable options are bonused against armor. We have no clear shield cracker AV versus dropships. This is why caldari dropships are preferred.
The first person to seriouspost the plasma cannon will be mocked without mercy. I'd just like to say, from my stand point as a python pilot and a forge gunner, the forge gun is more effective against pythons. I understand it gets bonus damage to armor with prof, but it is still more effective against pythons.
The reason I say this is because of the way each dropship regenerates health. A pythons shields will be delayed before coming back giving a 3 or 4 second window to land another shot and open another window with an AFG you can down a python in 3 shots. Incubi on the other hand passively regenerate their armor even under constant fire.
I have shot down quite a few pythons, some with my 9k, some with my DAU and some with my ishi. I have yet to shoot down and incubus on my own without help from another forge gun, I am currently on prof 2.
Master Skyshark rider
Kaalaka dakka tamer
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TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
377
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Posted - 2014.08.13 20:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:There needs to be more clear av options. Its very hard to balance the existing av against dropships when both viable options are bonused against armor. We have no clear shield cracker AV versus dropships. This is why caldari dropships are preferred.
The first person to seriouspost the plasma cannon will be mocked without mercy. I'd just like to say, from my stand point as a python pilot and a forge gunner, the forge gun is more effective against pythons. I understand it gets bonus damage to armor with prof, but it is still more effective against pythons. The reason I say this is because of the way each dropship regenerates health. A pythons shields will be delayed before coming back giving a 3 or 4 second window to land another shot and open another window with an AFG you can down a python in 3 shots. Incubi on the other hand passively regenerate their armor even under constant fire. I have shot down quite a few pythons, some with my 9k, some with my DAU and some with my ishi. I have yet to shoot down and incubus on my own without help from another forge gun, I am currently on prof 2.
I respectfully would have to disagree, though for more abstract reasons. I find the massive engine on the two sides of the incubus far easier to target and with a ishokune assault forge you can two shot an incubus if it doesn't get any of its defenses off. The Python however has much smaller engines and is also thinner in any case which matters a lot when the pilots are twirling rising or falling in the sky to avoid shots. Not too mention the python also can near instant repair its shields unlike the incubus when the regen does kick in. I actually have a much easier time shooting down gallente dropships then caldari because of the shield regen, stronger hardeners, and Forge armor affinity. And the slightly thinner frame doesn't hurt.
When it comes to forge vs. dropship. No dropship will survive a strong forge fit if the forge can hit the target especially in its weakpoints. This is much harder to do with Caldari dropships then Gallente.
Evasion is the primary defense of dropships against av and Caldari dropships are harder to land hits on. Not too mention I'm pretty sure like the other Caldari vs. Gallente vehicles the Caldari Accelerate faster. |
Pvt Numnutz
Prophets of the Velocirapture
1776
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 21:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:
I respectfully would have to disagree, though for more abstract reasons. I find the massive engine on the two sides of the incubus far easier to target and with an ishokune assault forge you can two shot an incubus if it doesn't get any of its defenses off. The Python however has much smaller engines and is also thinner in any case which matters a lot when the pilots are twirling rising or falling in the sky to avoid shots. Not too mention the python also can near instant repair its shields unlike the incubus armor when the regen does kick in. I actually have a much easier time shooting down gallente dropships then caldari because of the shield regen, stronger hardeners, and Forge armor affinity. And the slightly thinner frame doesn't hurt.
When it comes to forge vs. dropship. No dropship will survive a strong forge fit if the forge can hit the target especially in its weakpoints. This is much harder to do with Caldari dropships then Gallente.
Evasion is the primary defense of dropships against av and Caldari dropships are harder to land hits on. Not too mention I'm pretty sure like the other Caldari vs. Gallente vehicles the Caldari Accelerate faster.
In essence, it's like shield vs. armor on infantry. If shielded variants have the same e/hp as armor variants there isn't much point in armor variants as greater mobility is better than lesser mobility. If the python gets buffed too much shield wise, there wont be much of a point in the incubus.
I agree with you that the python shouldn't be buffed to much, depending on how swarm are now I may suggest a slight hp increase maybe 250 or something. I have yet to get a good map tho so I may not. They shouldn't be as tanky as incubi tho yes.
I am speaking out of experience here, maybe because I fly pythons they are easier for me to down. I might need to max out the prof to be good against incubi but as I have gone through my forge guns I have found it much easier to down pythons and have yet to down an incubus.
Master Skyshark rider
Kaalaka dakka tamer
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
12857
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Posted - 2014.08.13 21:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Malleus Malificorum wrote:Nice to hear you're not being gagged or censored much. Anything in the game is Public domain, and I can comment freely on it. But, for EXAMPLE... lets imagine, and this is a fictional example, that Jets and jetpacks were coming in delta . I couldn't comment in an AV assessment that swarms were readjusted like this because of the new vehicles in delta. But I can look at what we have, what I think works what does not and put that out there. We don't want me taking those opinions to CCP without putting them out for review and comment first. That way despotism lies.
However we all know new content is not on the agenda.............
"We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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Z Vatican
Hentai Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.08.13 21:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
I don't know much but I honestly don't have many problems with Pythons.
There are those few python users that like to hover slightly lower to the ground and shoot you when you're in a vehicle.
I tend to use a Gallente suit and get in a LAV and throw a Particle Accelerator on the thing and just roam around and stop at a point and wipe the shield off the Python then have a squad in wait to shoot it with forge guns.
But I won't lie I have failed numerous times to the point I just crash my own python into them with shield hardeners. |
Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1834
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Posted - 2014.08.13 21:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
I don't know how many people fly Pythons in PC, so I can tell you right now that it virtually unusable.
Even the best fit Pythons get 2-3 shot by forgers, and in the PC environment that's far common. Compare that to what I think a the best fit Incubus (950 shield, 4200 armor, 100shield/sec 90 armor/sec) which can tank 4 shots and still be about as agile as a Python (seriously, wtf is with that Armor composition skill?). That's a 5.2k, 200hp/sec regen ADS which can still be brought down regularly.
Now compare: With the 500-600hp boost, the best fit imo will be Ehn heavy ex, complex AB, complex hardener. This gives 3000-3100 shield base (I discount armor in ehp because it isn't significant or regenerates) and 5000-5100 hardened (remember for only 30sec and with a 45sec cooldown). This will allow a Python to burst tank when engaging enemies (as shields are supposed to do) while will keeping a reasonable passive tank if caught unaware.
This buff is necessary to balance Pythons with the Incubus. |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
383
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 22:56:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:I don't know how many people fly Pythons in PC, so I can tell you right now that it virtually unusable.
Even the best fit Pythons get 2-3 shot by forgers, and in the PC environment that's far common. Compare that to what I think a the best fit Incubus (950 shield, 4200 armor, 100shield/sec 90 armor/sec) which can tank 4 shots and still be about as agile as a Python (seriously, wtf is with that Armor composition skill?). That's a 5.2k, 200hp/sec regen ADS which can still be brought down regularly.
Now compare: With the 500-600hp boost, the best fit imo will be Ehn heavy ex, complex AB, complex hardener. This gives 3000-3100 shield base (I discount armor in ehp because it isn't significant or regenerates) and 5000-5100 hardened (remember for only 30sec and with a 45sec cooldown). This will allow a Python to burst tank when engaging enemies (as shields are supposed to do) while will keeping a reasonable passive tank if caught unaware.
This buff is necessary to balance Pythons with the Incubus.
If a python can't climb out of the 300m av range in 30 seconds then that pilot is over committing. As a forger I've never had trouble with gallente vehicles their generally more bulky and easier to hit and their weak points are pretty huge. |
ACT1ON BASTARD
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
49
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Posted - 2014.08.14 01:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Swarms were changed, damage mods were changed. Personally, I felt that the Python buff would make assessing the other changes harder. On paper the python does need a buff. Its ability to Alpha-withstand a forge is very low compared to the incubus, buts its swarm resistance is better.
A 500hp Python buff MAY have seen balanced forge alpha but too much swarm resistance. A buff is still very much on the agenda though. We just need to make sure the balance is done well. I know this is frustrating for pilots. The more cautious approach means our ISK getting lost. But we must avoid making any changes until we are sure of the result. Super OP pythons would ruin games for many at the benefit of the few.
I spoke with many pilots. Including the OP. Top rated (according to forum lists and to sources in high performance groups) pilots were against the change, fearing it was OP. However those specing into the ADS as new pilots, whose skills leave them with less defense were for it. This leaves a dilemma. Balance the lower tier with the buff but OP the top tier. More thought and consideration is needed to address this.
it is frustrating for pilots I know. Militia swarms got a decent buff, and they are free to all. Too many things have changed (minmandos in particular) for us to act to hastily. I am doing a comprehensive look at AV again after charlie. None of my assessment will be NDA. So I will share everything I think about it on my youtube and the new external CPM hub.
I think itll give us pythons some room to add something besides an afterburner and 2 shields. Maybe ill use a booster or damage mod while still being effective. I only have 2 python fits 1 of them is a gunner python. |
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