DUST Search - So... ADS prices staying the same?

Kallas Hallytyr wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

But when you add this 500 to the shield of a DS you then get an ADS with 3055 Shields that being 284 less than a Shield tank with a basic extender......and against most AV those Tanks will just .......take everything AV you have and ignore it.

Not that I dont appreciate the skill of ADS pilots, but I think they are currently as effective as they need to be.

Indeed I think the swarm change is good (less skilled Swarmers will have good reason to use them now) but the python shield buff was unnecessary. I feel that taking a good hard look at collision damage would!d have been much, much more worthwhile.

Quick bit about your numbers though: Pythons start at 1500 and this will put them up to 2000 base with a smaller slot layout than a Gunnlogi. The gap has closed but by less than your think, a Gunny will still have much more resilience than the toughest Python.

And honestly, shouldn't air power be the terror of HAVs? Air superiority has been incredibly important since we started using aerial combatants, that shouldn't really be any different. A good HAV pilot with a half awake top (rail) gunner can seriously hurt a harassing ADS. Now we just need to get the profile fixed (-10/+10) and all ADSs would have to be very cautious (oh, and fix the damn pilot stacking bull crap.)

"We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon

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Bone Scratcher The dyst0pian Corporation 54	Posted - 2014.08.07 23:12:00 - [1] - Quote I was under the impression that ADS prices were coming down, but don't see it in the patch notes. Was that idea cut off? There was at least a 500 shield buff to the Python, but I had hoped that the price of an ADS would be around 175K, considering how a tank is about 50K... Proto FG/HMG Amarr Sentinel. CCP's Problem
Cody Sietz SVER True Blood Dark Taboo 3797	Posted - 2014.08.07 23:15:00 - [2] - Quote They turned it down to a 500 hp buff. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2679	Posted - 2014.08.07 23:19:00 - [3] - Quote Bone Scratcher wrote: I was under the impression that ADS prices were coming down, but don't see it in the patch notes. Was that idea cut off? There was at least a 500 shield buff to the Python, but I had hoped that the price of an ADS would be around 175K, considering how a tank is about 50K... If my tank actually got bonuses per level, I'd be fine with a higher price tag.
Bone Scratcher The dyst0pian Corporation 54	Posted - 2014.08.07 23:22:00 - [4] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Bone Scratcher wrote: I was under the impression that ADS prices were coming down, but don't see it in the patch notes. Was that idea cut off? There was at least a 500 shield buff to the Python, but I had hoped that the price of an ADS would be around 175K, considering how a tank is about 50K... If my tank actually got bonuses per level, I'd be fine with a higher price tag. 50K is ridiculous. I'd also like to point out that the militias are EVEN CHEAPER. If you lose 4 tanks a match and still make profit, something's wrong. Proto FG/HMG Amarr Sentinel. CCP's Problem
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2679	Posted - 2014.08.07 23:23:00 - [5] - Quote Bone Scratcher wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Bone Scratcher wrote: I was under the impression that ADS prices were coming down, but don't see it in the patch notes. Was that idea cut off? There was at least a 500 shield buff to the Python, but I had hoped that the price of an ADS would be around 175K, considering how a tank is about 50K... If my tank actually got bonuses per level, I'd be fine with a higher price tag. 50K is ridiculous. I'd also like to point out that the militias are EVEN CHEAPER. If you lose 4 tanks a match and still make profit, something's wrong. Well I can assure you the tanks I fit and use cost quite a bit more than 50k. Large Turrets are actually quite expensive.
Bone Scratcher The dyst0pian Corporation 54	Posted - 2014.08.07 23:26:00 - [6] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Bone Scratcher wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Bone Scratcher wrote: I was under the impression that ADS prices were coming down, but don't see it in the patch notes. Was that idea cut off? There was at least a 500 shield buff to the Python, but I had hoped that the price of an ADS would be around 175K, considering how a tank is about 50K... If my tank actually got bonuses per level, I'd be fine with a higher price tag. 50K is ridiculous. I'd also like to point out that the militias are EVEN CHEAPER. If you can lose 4 tanks a match and still make profit, something's wrong. Well I can assure you the tanks I fit and use cost quite a bit more than 50k. Large Turrets are actually quite expensive. Militia turrets seem to be effective, too. A militia swarm SHOULD be able to take out a militia tank, but thanks to CCP's reasoning, even prof V protos have issues taking them down. Well played. If an ADS goes down, you're losing money for this match PLUS the next match. And that's if you get 200K per match. If you don't, you're bleeding money for even longer. Tanks are underpriced and everyone knows it. Proto FG/HMG Amarr Sentinel. CCP's Problem
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12699	Posted - 2014.08.07 23:30:00 - [7] - Quote Bone Scratcher wrote: I was under the impression that ADS prices were coming down, but don't see it in the patch notes. Was that idea cut off? There was at least a 500 shield buff to the Python, but I had hoped that the price of an ADS would be around 175K, considering how a tank is about 50K... And equivalent tier HAV does not exist, the closest thing we have however is worth 200K ISK don't even attempt to pretend an MLT HAV is equal in power and value to an ADS. You now effectively have skytanks...... I'm even considering skilling them now they are so cheap and going to be very difficult to take down. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2680	Posted - 2014.08.07 23:31:00 - [8] - Quote Bone Scratcher wrote: Militia turrets seem to be effective, too. A militia swarm SHOULD be able to take out a militia tank, but thanks to CCP's reasoning, even prof V protos have issues taking them down. Well played. Don't get too worked up there I'm not the kind of tanker who thinks I should God Incarnate. I run AV frequently and understand quite well how difficult it with the current system. The primary issue is that CCP attempted to tiercide vehicles, and while they initially did that, they did it poorly. The problem is that AV weapons were still tiered, which leads to a balance issue which cannot be fixed with mere damage changes. Vehicles need to tiered again, or at the very least the modules so, such that militia AV is balanced against militia vehicle defenses, and proto AV is balanced against proto vehicle defenses.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12699	Posted - 2014.08.07 23:33:00 - [9] - Quote Bone Scratcher wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Bone Scratcher wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Bone Scratcher wrote: I was under the impression that ADS prices were coming down, but don't see it in the patch notes. Was that idea cut off? There was at least a 500 shield buff to the Python, but I had hoped that the price of an ADS would be around 175K, considering how a tank is about 50K... If my tank actually got bonuses per level, I'd be fine with a higher price tag. 50K is ridiculous. I'd also like to point out that the militias are EVEN CHEAPER. If you can lose 4 tanks a match and still make profit, something's wrong. Well I can assure you the tanks I fit and use cost quite a bit more than 50k. Large Turrets are actually quite expensive. Militia turrets seem to be effective, too. A militia swarm SHOULD be able to take out a militia tank, but thanks to CCP's reasoning, even prof V protos have issues taking them down. Well played. If an ADS goes down, you're losing money for this match PLUS the next match. And that's if you get 200K per match. If you don't, you're bleeding money for even longer. Tanks are underpriced and everyone knows it. My HAV costs about 581 K ISK its roughly the same price as your ADS all said and done. Still as Mr Dravon said if I got bonuses per level of HAV operation then I would be fine with HAV hulls costing upwards of 775,000 ISK. We used to have those but they were removed. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Bone Scratcher The dyst0pian Corporation 55	Posted - 2014.08.07 23:34:00 - [10] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Bone Scratcher wrote: I was under the impression that ADS prices were coming down, but don't see it in the patch notes. Was that idea cut off? There was at least a 500 shield buff to the Python, but I had hoped that the price of an ADS would be around 175K, considering how a tank is about 50K... And equivalent tier HAV does not exist, the closest thing we have however is worth 200K ISK don't even attempt to pretend an MLT HAV is equal in power and value to an ADS. You now effectively have skytanks...... I'm even considering skilling them now they are so cheap and going to be very difficult to take down. We have SMALL TURRETS. Plus, they're not, "cheap". My best ADS is 600K. Actually, you're right. a Militia tank isn't equal to an ADS. It's better. Twenty militia tanks are the same price as one ADS. Militia tanks get a large turret slot, plus more HP. Proto FG/HMG Amarr Sentinel. CCP's Problem

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2681	Posted - 2014.08.07 23:39:00 - [11] - Quote Bone Scratcher wrote: We have SMALL TURRETS. Plus, they're not, "cheap". My best ADS is 600K. Actually, you're right. a Militia tank isn't equal to an ADS. It's better. Twenty militia tanks are the same price as one ADS. Militia tanks get a large turret slot, plus more HP. Honestly man after the various nerfs to Large Rails, an ADS is the most terrifying thing for an HAV to deal with. If you get above us, what can we do? You're faster, more menueverable, and if we somehow DO get the jump on you, you can fly straight up and out of danger, but aside from the redline, I have no where to run from you. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but you should be able to use your ADS to tear militia tanks apart, because I know I have a really hard time dealing with an ADS, even in a full pimped out HAV.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12699	Posted - 2014.08.07 23:43:00 - [12] - Quote Bone Scratcher wrote: True Adamance wrote: Bone Scratcher wrote: I was under the impression that ADS prices were coming down, but don't see it in the patch notes. Was that idea cut off? There was at least a 500 shield buff to the Python, but I had hoped that the price of an ADS would be around 175K, considering how a tank is about 50K... And equivalent tier HAV does not exist, the closest thing we have however is worth 200K ISK don't even attempt to pretend an MLT HAV is equal in power and value to an ADS. You now effectively have skytanks...... I'm even considering skilling them now they are so cheap and going to be very difficult to take down. We have SMALL TURRETS. Plus, they're not, "cheap". My best ADS is 600K. Actually, you're right. a Militia tank isn't equal to an ADS. It's better. Twenty militia tanks are the same price as one ADS. Militia tanks get a large turret slot, plus more HP. Why are you comparing an Advanced or T2 Dropship to a Militia Tank. Currently HAV do not have anything on par with ADS. As I have said I am fine with HAV costing in excess of 1 Million ISK....they used to anyway.... it would give me more of a reason to skill in HAV past Lvl1 HAV Command. My point is ADS are now "sky tanks" are a reality E.G- 4000EHP + 900 ..... 40 second cool down window, 224 reps per second after a 4 second delay, and a 10-20 second AB cooldown...... 500 Damage per missile on the python with increased RoF. ADS are already dangerous. Post Charlie they border over powered. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1807	Posted - 2014.08.08 00:49:00 - [13] - Quote Just for everyone's information, my tanks cost as much as my ADSs (about 500k). Actual tanks, not these crap fit, wanna-be MLT fits that scrubs think are sooo powerful, can actually push a decent price tag (upwards of 400-500k easy).
Bone Scratcher The dyst0pian Corporation 55	Posted - 2014.08.08 00:54:00 - [14] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Just for everyone's information, my tanks cost as much as my ADSs (about 500k). Actual tanks, not these crap fit, wanna-be MLT fits that scrubs think are sooo powerful, can actually push a decent price tag (upwards of 400-500k easy). What game do you play? Because I play this game made by CCP called DUST 514, and militia tanks are 25K with a BUILT-IN MODULES. STD tanks can't be beaten by two proficiency V swarms, and with an ADV turret, costs about 225K. Proto FG/HMG Amarr Sentinel. CCP's Problem
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12700	Posted - 2014.08.08 01:17:00 - [15] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Just for everyone's information, my tanks cost as much as my ADSs (about 500k). Actual tanks, not these crap fit, wanna-be MLT fits that scrubs think are sooo powerful, can actually push a decent price tag (upwards of 400-500k easy). I think its fair to say the anatomy of a well fit HAV is 200K ISK base for the Hull 281K ISK base for a prototype Turret 50-75K ISK for the turrets 35-85 K ISK for the modules It roughly translates to exactly the same costs as an ADS. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12700	Posted - 2014.08.08 01:17:00 - [16] - Quote Bone Scratcher wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Just for everyone's information, my tanks cost as much as my ADSs (about 500k). Actual tanks, not these crap fit, wanna-be MLT fits that scrubs think are sooo powerful, can actually push a decent price tag (upwards of 400-500k easy). What game do you play? Because I play this game made by CCP called DUST 514, and militia tanks are 25K with a BUILT-IN MODULES. STD tanks can't be beaten by two proficiency V swarms, and with an ADV turret, costs about 225K. Wait where are you finding 25K ISK HAV..... MLT HAV cost 70K and are unfitted to my knowledge. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 704	Posted - 2014.08.08 01:47:00 - [17] - Quote To be fair, a PRO large turret is unnecessary, just like a PRO small turret. The difference in cost (I know for small turrets its roughly a 4x increase: large turrets are pretty similar) is not worthwhile for a public battle when the efficacy difference is so small (AT-1 to XT-1 is a roughly 30 damage increase.) The biggest reason ADSs are so ridiculously expensive is that the hull alone is 322k ISK. Sure, they're benefitting from a skill... But that should not mean that ISK negative should be the default position if you lose a single one. Heaven forfend you try to actually help your team/squad and not just bail after the first AV hit (like many whiners complain about) and thus actually risk your vehicle. Personally I think a drop to around 200-250k ISK is not unreasonable. Still very expensive but would not be unrecoverable if you lose one. Alt of Halla Murr.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12703	Posted - 2014.08.08 01:58:00 - [18] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: To be fair, a PRO large turret is unnecessary, just like a PRO small turret. The difference in cost (I know for small turrets its roughly a 4x increase: large turrets are pretty similar) is not worthwhile for a public battle when the efficacy difference is so small (AT-1 to XT-1 is a roughly 30 damage increase.) The biggest reason ADSs are so ridiculously expensive is that the hull alone is 322k ISK. Sure, they're benefitting from a skill... But that should not mean that ISK negative should be the default position if you lose a single one. Heaven forfend you try to actually help your team/squad and not just bail after the first AV hit (like many whiners complain about) and thus actually risk your vehicle. Personally I think a drop to around 200-250k ISK is not unreasonable. Still very expensive but would not be unrecoverable if you lose one. Indeed but you must consider that you are helping your team every second that AV is not on you, and when you don't get AV on you, much like in a tank you become uncontestable. I see why ADS do it, they are not designed to tank damage, nor should they be, they have mobility and fire power, at the cost of Tank and I understand preservation. The key to being a marauder is to know when to agress and when to pull back and wait out the fire to frustrate your enemy. But when you add this 500 to the shield of a DS you then get an ADS with 3055 Shields that being 284 less than a Shield tank with a basic extender......and against most AV those Tanks will just .......take everything AV you have and ignore it. Not that I dont appreciate the skill of ADS pilots, but I think they are currently as effective as they need to be. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 705	Posted - 2014.08.08 02:22:00 - [19] - Quote True Adamance wrote: But when you add this 500 to the shield of a DS you then get an ADS with 3055 Shields that being 284 less than a Shield tank with a basic extender......and against most AV those Tanks will just .......take everything AV you have and ignore it. Not that I dont appreciate the skill of ADS pilots, but I think they are currently as effective as they need to be. Indeed I think the swarm change is good (less skilled Swarmers will have good reason to use them now) but the python shield buff was unnecessary. I feel that taking a good hard look at collision damage would!d have been much, much more worthwhile. Quick bit about your numbers though: Pythons start at 1500 and this will put them up to 2000 base with a smaller slot layout than a Gunnlogi. The gap has closed but by less than your think, a Gunny will still have much more resilience than the toughest Python. And honestly, shouldn't air power be the terror of HAVs? Air superiority has been incredibly important since we started using aerial combatants, that shouldn't really be any different. A good HAV pilot with a half awake top (rail) gunner can seriously hurt a harassing ADS. Now we just need to get the profile fixed (-10/+10) and all ADSs would have to be very cautious (oh, and fix the damn pilot stacking bull crap.) Alt of Halla Murr.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12703	Posted - 2014.08.08 02:38:00 - [20] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: True Adamance wrote: But when you add this 500 to the shield of a DS you then get an ADS with 3055 Shields that being 284 less than a Shield tank with a basic extender......and against most AV those Tanks will just .......take everything AV you have and ignore it. Not that I dont appreciate the skill of ADS pilots, but I think they are currently as effective as they need to be. Indeed I think the swarm change is good (less skilled Swarmers will have good reason to use them now) but the python shield buff was unnecessary. I feel that taking a good hard look at collision damage would!d have been much, much more worthwhile. Quick bit about your numbers though: Pythons start at 1500 and this will put them up to 2000 base with a smaller slot layout than a Gunnlogi. The gap has closed but by less than your think, a Gunny will still have much more resilience than the toughest Python. And honestly, shouldn't air power be the terror of HAVs? Air superiority has been incredibly important since we started using aerial combatants, that shouldn't really be any different. A good HAV pilot with a half awake top (rail) gunner can seriously hurt a harassing ADS. Now we just need to get the profile fixed (-10/+10) and all ADSs would have to be very cautious (oh, and fix the damn pilot stacking bull crap.) Air power is already the bane of HAV. There is almost no way to counteract in in an HAV. You either have to be really lucky and Alpha down it before it gets away Or run to the redline It's that or your die, and even option two doesnt often works since ADS can run the redline so well. "We were commanded us to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocent caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon



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