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Vladimir Scovachek Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2014.07.06 21:47:00 - [1] - Quote It's so funny how one P2W person kills my whole team by himself without losing any of his armor. That is just bull crap. Why do the low quality players have to suffer?
RogueTrooper 2000AD Neckbeard Absolution 153	Posted - 2014.07.06 21:51:00 - [2] - Quote Because they are crap. Service with a smile
jenza aranda BetaMax. 3336	Posted - 2014.07.06 21:52:00 - [3] - Quote P2W is a very old subject in dust and I still maintain its not P2W, (not that i am disagreeing with you that the game needs to be fixed) Pay to win means to get a definitive advantage over non paying players in game, items a non paying player can't get. Every Aurum item just allows you to access better gear sooner but holds no actual advantage in terms of stats. All you need to do is save up your SP a little longer and you have them. Dust 514 101 // Dust 514 Wiki
Yokal Bob Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 517	Posted - 2014.07.06 21:53:00 - [4] - Quote yeah pay to win in standard grade or less bpo's well done mate If its not anime, its not real
Echoist Dogs of War Gaming 293	Posted - 2014.07.06 21:59:00 - [5] - Quote He's just mad that he can't aim, I suggest something with a large ammo clip or... Maybe a repair tool? Could always use more logis lol. Dropship Gunner STINGY: Yes I did nickname my laser rifle. Owner of a "Insta Bacon Machine" called STINGY
Vladimir Scovachek Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2014.07.06 22:06:00 - [6] - Quote Echoist wrote: He's just mad that he can't aim, I suggest something with a large ammo clip or... Maybe a repair tool? Could always use more logis lol. I'm mad? But you decided to make a comment. So obviously the only one mad is you.
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 4181	Posted - 2014.07.06 22:28:00 - [7] - Quote The only P2W item are Boosters, which allow you to advance at a higher rate than somebody that never bought anything, and as we all know; Better Gear, Better Base Stats = Win. The use of Aurum weapons mean that either the player won them, bought them because they don't have enough skills, wanted to be more ISK efficient, or were saps for CCP's appropriately thin marketing campaign. PSN: The_Rynoceros Destiny beta SoonGäó Console Master Race
Eko Sol Strange Playings 519	Posted - 2014.07.06 22:33:00 - [8] - Quote In Dust's case I have a serious issue with the debate for P2W. 1st, the best uplink in the game is AUR if you don't go into the LP store. Even if you only get 5 spawns just be a advanced A-Logi and you get 11. 2nd, There are TONS of BPO's that give people huge advantages. Running BPO's saves isk for the times you want Proto. No new player has this advantage. 3rd, If you are like me and make a good living then you buy tons of omega's every time you can. Then use them on events. Hence why I have only played since like November and have almost 30 mil SP. Tell me that is truly not an advantage? 4th, Being able to purchase an item above your current SP is a way of paying to win. You get more PG/CPU thus more HP and, typically, do more damage. The advantage is small but for experienced and skilled FPS players it is gigantic. This game may not be P2W in the traditional sense but in some ways it is definitely P2W on the lower part of the spectrum. There is no debate on the matter. The facts are facts. PSN is "Ekopalm" Playing: Murdered Soul Suspect WIP: Child of Light, MGS5 Welcome to play with me anytime, message me.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3031	Posted - 2014.07.06 22:53:00 - [9] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: In Dust's case I have a serious issue with the debate for P2W. 1st, the best uplink in the game is AUR if you don't go into the LP store. Even if you only get 5 spawns just be a advanced A-Logi and you get 11. LP store is free is it not, does that not solve the issue? The whole point of the LP store is to get 'AUR-Named' items with paying for them. 2nd, There are TONS of BPO's that give people huge advantages. Running BPO's saves isk for the times you want Proto. No new player has this advantage. BPO's only apply to standard gear, which is only marginally (as in just barely) better than mlt. New players have access to 3 unlimited fits, for the entire duration of the game,, without paying a dime. 3rd, If you are like me and make a good living then you buy tons of omega's every time you can. Then use them on events. Hence why I have only played since like November and have almost 30 mil SP. Tell me that is truly not an advantage? You can have 300mil SP, but as I'm sure you are aware SP only gets you so far, just because you have more SP does not make you any more likely to beat me in my mlt amarr suit 4th, Being able to purchase an item above your current SP is a way of paying to win. You get more PG/CPU thus more HP and, typically, do more damage. The advantage is small but for experienced and skilled FPS players it is gigantic. If we had a matchmaking system that put AUR proto gear with traditional advanced gear, then yesmthat would undoubtedly be a pay to win feature, but considering we have NO matchmaking, no its not. This game may not be P2W in the traditional sense but in some ways it is definitely P2W on the lower part of the spectrum. There is no debate on the matter. The facts are facts. There is plenty of debate over the matter, the fact fact that you have to, give arguements to prove your point, shows this. The fact this, thread even exsists shows it is very much up for debate. OP, unfortunately just because he is in AUR gear is not the reason he beat you. The reason he beat you is because, he beat you. Chances are he was in proto variant gear in which case, it wouldn't matter if he was AUR or not he would still have clobbered you all the same. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 634	Posted - 2014.07.06 22:54:00 - [10] - Quote i remember when the killswitch gek was p2w in chromosome and the fused contact grenades in the beginning of uprising.

Eko Sol Strange Playings 520	Posted - 2014.07.06 22:57:00 - [11] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Eko Sol wrote: In Dust's case I have a serious issue with the debate for P2W. 1st, the best uplink in the game is AUR if you don't go into the LP store. Even if you only get 5 spawns just be a advanced A-Logi and you get 11. LP store is free is it not, does that not solve the issue? The whole point of the LP store is to get 'AUR-Named' items with paying for them. 2nd, There are TONS of BPO's that give people huge advantages. Running BPO's saves isk for the times you want Proto. No new player has this advantage. BPO's only apply to standard gear, which is only marginally (as in just barely) better than mlt. New players have access to 3 unlimited fits, for the entire duration of the game,, without paying a dime. 3rd, If you are like me and make a good living then you buy tons of omega's every time you can. Then use them on events. Hence why I have only played since like November and have almost 30 mil SP. Tell me that is truly not an advantage? You can have 300mil SP, but as I'm sure you are aware SP only gets you so far, just because you have more SP does not make you any more likely to beat me in my mlt amarr suit 4th, Being able to purchase an item above your current SP is a way of paying to win. You get more PG/CPU thus more HP and, typically, do more damage. The advantage is small but for experienced and skilled FPS players it is gigantic. If we had a matchmaking system that put AUR proto gear with traditional advanced gear, then yesmthat would undoubtedly be a pay to win feature, but considering we have NO matchmaking, no its not. This game may not be P2W in the traditional sense but in some ways it is definitely P2W on the lower part of the spectrum. There is no debate on the matter. The facts are facts. There is plenty of debate over the matter, the fact fact that you have to, give arguements to prove your point, shows this. The fact this, thread even exsists shows it is very much up for debate. OP, unfortunately just because he is in AUR gear is not the reason he beat you. The reason he beat you is because, he beat you. Chances are he was in proto variant gear in which case, it wouldn't matter if he was AUR or not he would still have clobbered you all the same. I wasn't giving facts to prove an argument I was just stating that you can pay to get something better than those that don't pay hence it is P2W. Your rebuttles are terrible. They still prove me to be correct. Someone brand new without doing anything but buying AUR and AUR items can have an advantage over someone else that is brand new that can't afford it. PSN is "Ekopalm" Playing: Murdered Soul Suspect WIP: Child of Light, MGS5 Welcome to play with me anytime, message me.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3031	Posted - 2014.07.06 22:58:00 - [12] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: i remember when the killswitch gek was p2w in chromosome and the fused contact grenades in the beginning of uprising. Contacts were most definitely pay to win at the time, but they are kinda useless now. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Vicious Minotaur 1059	Posted - 2014.07.06 23:01:00 - [13] - Quote This game IS fixed, though... It is fixed in the manner by which, say, boxing matches are fixed. I am a minotaur.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3031	Posted - 2014.07.06 23:12:00 - [14] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Eko Sol wrote: In Dust's case I have a serious issue with the debate for P2W. 1st, the best uplink in the game is AUR if you don't go into the LP store. Even if you only get 5 spawns just be a advanced A-Logi and you get 11. LP store is free is it not, does that not solve the issue? The whole point of the LP store is to get 'AUR-Named' items with paying for them. 2nd, There are TONS of BPO's that give people huge advantages. Running BPO's saves isk for the times you want Proto. No new player has this advantage. BPO's only apply to standard gear, which is only marginally (as in just barely) better than mlt. New players have access to 3 unlimited fits, for the entire duration of the game,, without paying a dime. 3rd, If you are like me and make a good living then you buy tons of omega's every time you can. Then use them on events. Hence why I have only played since like November and have almost 30 mil SP. Tell me that is truly not an advantage? You can have 300mil SP, but as I'm sure you are aware SP only gets you so far, just because you have more SP does not make you any more likely to beat me in my mlt amarr suit 4th, Being able to purchase an item above your current SP is a way of paying to win. You get more PG/CPU thus more HP and, typically, do more damage. The advantage is small but for experienced and skilled FPS players it is gigantic. If we had a matchmaking system that put AUR proto gear with traditional advanced gear, then yesmthat would undoubtedly be a pay to win feature, but considering we have NO matchmaking, no its not. This game may not be P2W in the traditional sense but in some ways it is definitely P2W on the lower part of the spectrum. There is no debate on the matter. The facts are facts. There is plenty of debate over the matter, the fact fact that you have to, give arguements to prove your point, shows this. The fact this, thread even exsists shows it is very much up for debate. OP, unfortunately just because he is in AUR gear is not the reason he beat you. The reason he beat you is because, he beat you. Chances are he was in proto variant gear in which case, it wouldn't matter if he was AUR or not he would still have clobbered you all the same. I wasn't giving facts to prove an argument I was just stating that you can pay to get something better than those that don't pay hence it is P2W. Your rebuttles are terrible. They still prove me to be correct. Someone brand new without doing anything but buying AUR and AUR items can have an advantage over someone else that is brand new that can't afford it. So you completly actually ignore the arguements then? I'll say again, BPO's give pretty minimal improvements, litterally the difference is PG/CPU usage. If I paid 30 quid for a BPO I'd be damn dissapointed. You still seem to competly ignore that actual skill trumps SP everytime. Being able to pay for suits over your current SP if anything gives you a disadvantage. Since you don't recieve the bonuses and passive boosts. An AUR Proto at Advanced SP is worse off then a Proto at Proto SP. The only thing you can actually pertain to argue is the boosters, but once you get past about 5 mill SP you can have all the important upgrades in Dropsuit Upgrades, so we are once again on pretty even ground. More SP just means you can be more wasteful, it gives you more choice but the end result can still be the same. You do not get enough of an advantage for it to be P2W, for an example of PSW I would refer you to ES online, you can pay with real money for gear that is blantantly overpowered, that is P2W, since the advantage you recieve is enough to make victory assured. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Eko Sol Strange Playings 520	Posted - 2014.07.06 23:29:00 - [15] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Eko Sol wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Eko Sol wrote: In Dust's case I have a serious issue with the debate for P2W. 1st, the best uplink in the game is AUR if you don't go into the LP store. Even if you only get 5 spawns just be a advanced A-Logi and you get 11. LP store is free is it not, does that not solve the issue? The whole point of the LP store is to get 'AUR-Named' items with paying for them. 2nd, There are TONS of BPO's that give people huge advantages. Running BPO's saves isk for the times you want Proto. No new player has this advantage. BPO's only apply to standard gear, which is only marginally (as in just barely) better than mlt. New players have access to 3 unlimited fits, for the entire duration of the game,, without paying a dime. 3rd, If you are like me and make a good living then you buy tons of omega's every time you can. Then use them on events. Hence why I have only played since like November and have almost 30 mil SP. Tell me that is truly not an advantage? You can have 300mil SP, but as I'm sure you are aware SP only gets you so far, just because you have more SP does not make you any more likely to beat me in my mlt amarr suit 4th, Being able to purchase an item above your current SP is a way of paying to win. You get more PG/CPU thus more HP and, typically, do more damage. The advantage is small but for experienced and skilled FPS players it is gigantic. If we had a matchmaking system that put AUR proto gear with traditional advanced gear, then yesmthat would undoubtedly be a pay to win feature, but considering we have NO matchmaking, no its not. This game may not be P2W in the traditional sense but in some ways it is definitely P2W on the lower part of the spectrum. There is no debate on the matter. The facts are facts. There is plenty of debate over the matter, the fact fact that you have to, give arguements to prove your point, shows this. The fact this, thread even exsists shows it is very much up for debate. OP, unfortunately just because he is in AUR gear is not the reason he beat you. The reason he beat you is because, he beat you. Chances are he was in proto variant gear in which case, it wouldn't matter if he was AUR or not he would still have clobbered you all the same. I wasn't giving facts to prove an argument I was just stating that you can pay to get something better than those that don't pay hence it is P2W. Your rebuttles are terrible. They still prove me to be correct. Someone brand new without doing anything but buying AUR and AUR items can have an advantage over someone else that is brand new that can't afford it. So you completly actually ignore the arguements then? I'll say again, BPO's give pretty minimal improvements, litterally the difference is PG/CPU usage. If I paid 30 quid for a BPO I'd be damn dissapointed. You still seem to competly ignore that actual skill trumps SP everytime. Being able to pay for suits over your current SP if anything gives you a disadvantage. Since you don't recieve the bonuses and passive boosts. An AUR Proto at Advanced SP is worse off then a Proto at Proto SP. The only thing you can actually pertain to argue is the boosters, but once you get past about 5 mill SP you can have all the important upgrades in Dropsuit Upgrades, so we are once again on pretty even ground. More SP just means you can be more wasteful, it gives you more choice but the end result can still be the same. You do not get enough of an advantage for it to be P2W, for an example of PSW I would refer you to ES online, you can pay with real money for gear that is blantantly overpowered, that is P2W, since the advantage you recieve is enough to make victory assured. Yes I am ignoring your idiotic "arguments". 32 brand new players started the game and 16 happened to be in the same side of the match all with 40k AUR and the other 16 on the other side that do not have any AUR. Take that, and then tell me that the side with the AUR has no advantage. Assume every player has equal skill in FPS's, use default settings, and never played or watch the game played before. The fact is that the AUR side will have the advantage. Period. As long as you can gain ANY advantage using real world money over ANY player that also plays automatically makes this a low spectrum P2W operation. Your arguments don't mean squat. I don't care that someone buys aurum and is still at a disadvantage over vets. That doesn't' mean you don't get an advantage when buying aur over other new players that cannot. Until you can prove that there is ZERO P2W in the game you will have ZERO validity in your "argument". It is P2W. Get over it. I'm done mentoring you padawan. You are own your own now and must find your own path within the force. I'll now place you in on Alderaan a bit before the major catastrophe. Wait, wrong universe right? PSN is "Ekopalm" Playing: Murdered Soul Suspect WIP: Child of Light, MGS5 Welcome to play with me anytime, message me.
Echoist Dogs of War Gaming 294	Posted - 2014.07.07 00:17:00 - [16] - Quote Vladimir Scovachek wrote: Echoist wrote: He's just mad that he can't aim, I suggest something with a large ammo clip or... Maybe a repair tool? Could always use more logis lol. I'm mad? But you decided to make a comment. So obviously the only one mad is you. sigh here we go... I decided to make a comment because I'm a smart ass, cause I was bored and just surfing the internet. Why would I be mad? I don't even take this game or the developers seriously, lol. Besides I wasn't the one who posted about it's "bs" that one player can take out four or however many (i forgot and I'm not really interested enough to look) other players. Oh, and from what I've seen Aur gear gives no actual combat benefit over regular gear. So to those who actually believe that Aur gear gives you some kind of combat prowess over others that just means they're looking for something to blame other than themselves for being incapable of staying on target. P.S. don't expect a reply because it's obvious that you'll just turn this forum post into a ranty and unneccessary "argument", have a nice day and remember that weird symbol in the middle of the screen is where you're aiming lol. Dropship Gunner STINGY: Yes I did nickname my laser rifle. Owner of a "Insta Bacon Machine" called STINGY
Louis Domi Pradox One Proficiency V. 420	Posted - 2014.07.07 00:45:00 - [17] - Quote I have not once thought this game was P2W, been here since open beta, never spent a dime, I do just as good or even better than these P2W, anyway you don't need to be P2W in order to stomp, he probably had a proto suit, and since his armor didn't go down, he probably had a Logi. If you go to other FTPMMO games, you will trully see what P2W means. To the other people commenting above me, are you really fighting over this? Only thing in this game worth a damn is boosters, all they do is give you a quick boost, its not like they make you any better, a scrub in a proto suit is only a scrub with more HP. Also the thing with BPO's, and aurum gear, giving them lots of money, doesn't really matter, if you are even half decent you should be able to turn an isk profit in this game, money management and what not. Also we have the frontline suit, and the other 2, switch out the primary, and boom its a suit that cost basically 100 isk fully desposable, you can die 100 times a match and still turn a profit.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 3595	Posted - 2014.07.07 01:08:00 - [18] - Quote My crappy KDR is living proof of it not being P2W . Other players have said it better above, but just take any BF or CoD game, you have to grind and grind to unlock the best weapons plus superior weapons in DLC. DUST needs the same dedication and actually allows you to choose your own progression instead of following the preset unlocks. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10701	Posted - 2014.07.07 01:14:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: My crappy KDR is living proof of it not being P2W . Other players have said it better above, but just take any BF or CoD game, you have to grind and grind to unlock the best weapons plus superior weapons in DLC. DUST needs the same dedication and actually allows you to choose your own progression instead of following the preset unlocks. The AK5C is probably the best carbine in BF4 and it's your first unlock :\| Pretty much all the rifles are side upgrades. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
axINVICTUSxa DETHDEALERS RISE of LEGION 168	Posted - 2014.07.07 01:17:00 - [20] - Quote Vladimir Scovachek wrote: It's so funny how one P2W person kills my whole team by himself without losing any of his armor. That is just bull crap. Why do the low quality players have to suffer? (TL: Lets go comrade) Davai Tovarisch, not much we can do about it except to fight on. If you need tips help or want to squad up message me ingame. Wherever the Wind (Aero) might take me, may it ever be True, for the way of the Commando is noble and right.

ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1384	Posted - 2014.07.07 01:19:00 - [21] - Quote jenza aranda wrote: P2W is a very old subject in dust and I still maintain its not P2W, (not that i am disagreeing with you that the game needs to be fixed) Pay to win means to get a definitive advantage over non paying players in game, items a non paying player can't get. Every Aurum item just allows you to access better gear sooner but holds no actual advantage in terms of stats. All you need to do is save up your SP a little longer and you have them. Why does everyone say that you unlock the same weapon sooner? Aren't all Aurum weapons actually inferior? I mean, the passives may not matter to everyone, but, I can tell the difference when I use a Kaalakiota Tactical Sniper Rifle on my main with Lvl 5 Operation versus using a Horizon with only Lvl 3.., If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 1047	Posted - 2014.07.07 01:22:00 - [22] - Quote Vladimir Scovachek wrote: It's so funny how one P2W person kills my whole team by himself without losing any of his armor. That is just bull crap. Why do the low quality players have to suffer? Pay to win my ass. It's a lack of SP. Which equates to TIME. The longer you play the better stuff you have access to. Or you can buy aur gear that gets you a pro gear without the skills, BUT YOU STILL LACK THE SKILL. Try an gun with proficiency 5, with max level in shields in armor, plus secondary skills to PG/CPU, ect ect ect. Play to win maybe, but it damn sure ain't pay to win. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Egonz4 395	Posted - 2014.07.07 01:51:00 - [23] - Quote Vladimir Scovachek wrote: It's so funny how one P2W person kills my whole team by himself without losing any of his armor. That is just bull crap. Why do the low quality players have to suffer? I know!...plus the op murder taxis, and that op flaylock and ion pistol....omg! Good troll Master of The Flaylock
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11666	Posted - 2014.07.07 01:52:00 - [24] - Quote ResistanceGTA wrote: jenza aranda wrote: P2W is a very old subject in dust and I still maintain its not P2W, (not that i am disagreeing with you that the game needs to be fixed) Pay to win means to get a definitive advantage over non paying players in game, items a non paying player can't get. Every Aurum item just allows you to access better gear sooner but holds no actual advantage in terms of stats. All you need to do is save up your SP a little longer and you have them. Why does everyone say that you unlock the same weapon sooner? Aren't all Aurum weapons actually inferior? I mean, the passives may not matter to everyone, but, I can tell the difference when I use a Kaalakiota Tactical Sniper Rifle on my main with Lvl 5 Operation versus using a Horizon with only Lvl 3.., No.....but the lack of supporting skills is definitely a part of that feeling. Aurum gear allows a player with lower skill levels to advance to prototype gear. For example the "Bloodgrail Viziam Scrambler Rifle" only requires ScR Op III instead of the traditional ScR OP V. It's stats are exactly the same for all intensive purposes. However you loose out on the benefits of the skill levels you are missing. I think directly attributes to your perception that Aurum gear is less efficient. "So you came back......My son, my Udorian son.....bearing the filthy blood of his heathen mother." - Eaderan Ouryon
Scheneighnay McBob Cult of Gasai 5579	Posted - 2014.07.07 02:15:00 - [25] - Quote I wouldn't call dust P2W, as anything you get with AUR is functionally the same as ISK gear. In reality, it wouldn't make any difference if you were killed by someone with proto ISK gear or proto AUR gear. pé¦pâ+pé¦pâ½pâäpâ¬pâ¦pé¦pâ¼pâ+pâêpü»sñ¬S+ïpéè
Eko Sol Strange Playings 522	Posted - 2014.07.07 04:24:00 - [26] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I wouldn't call dust P2W, as anything you get with AUR is functionally the same as ISK gear. In reality, it wouldn't make any difference if you were killed by someone with proto ISK gear or proto AUR gear. Urban Dictionary states that "pay to win" is defines as: Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. 1) I know that Urban Dictionary doesn't count but until someone provides a better source you are screwed. 2) 2 new players start the game, one uses AUR for better gear and boosters, the other can't. The 1st one has paid for an advantage that the other cannot have at that time. THe fact that, at some point, someone will have the same skill, sp, isk, gear, etc. as an AUR doesn't change the fact that AT SOME POINT DURING THE GAME PLAYING PROCESS 2 new players will have different access to different "stuff" in which the one with AUR will have an advantage over anyone that does or cannot have AUR. This game lets you buy better gear and items than everyone else at a faster rate. So using AUR you can buy better gear before another player may be able to using normal grinding methods. Show me a better source for the definition and I will accept defeat. Until then live in your illusion. CCP Ratatti, I bet you never spent a real dime on AUR and if you did you got scammed out of a paycheck. I really mean that. Even in restaurants you get a free dinner and sometimes 2 meals for long shifts. PSN is "Ekopalm" Playing: Murdered Soul Suspect WIP: Child of Light, MGS5 Welcome to play with me anytime, message me.
Viktor Hadah Jr Negative-Impact Gentlemen's.Club 4485	Posted - 2014.07.07 04:27:00 - [27] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: In Dust's case I have a serious issue with the debate for P2W. 1st, the best uplink in the game is AUR if you don't go into the LP store. Even if you only get 5 spawns just be a advanced A-Logi and you get 11. 2nd, There are TONS of BPO's that give people huge advantages. Running BPO's saves isk for the times you want Proto. No new player has this advantage. 3rd, If you are like me and make a good living then you buy tons of omega's every time you can. Then use them on events. Hence why I have only played since like November and have almost 30 mil SP. Tell me that is truly not an advantage? 4th, Being able to purchase an item above your current SP is a way of paying to win. You get more PG/CPU thus more HP and, typically, do more damage. The advantage is small but for experienced and skilled FPS players it is gigantic. This game may not be P2W in the traditional sense but in some ways it is definitely P2W on the lower part of the spectrum. There is no debate on the matter. The facts are facts. All players have free suits they can use Earn 500Mil ISK Gentlemen's Club "No poors allowed" Chat Channel: Vik PC

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 3614	Posted - 2014.07.07 04:38:00 - [28] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I wouldn't call dust P2W, as anything you get with AUR is functionally the same as ISK gear. In reality, it wouldn't make any difference if you were killed by someone with proto ISK gear or proto AUR gear. Urban Dictionary states that "pay to win" is defines as: Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. 1) I know that Urban Dictionary doesn't count but until someone provides a better source you are screwed. 2) 2 new players start the game, one uses AUR for better gear and boosters, the other can't. The 1st one has paid for an advantage that the other cannot have at that time. THe fact that, at some point, someone will have the same skill, sp, isk, gear, etc. as an AUR doesn't change the fact that AT SOME POINT DURING THE GAME PLAYING PROCESS 2 new players will have different access to different "stuff" in which the one with AUR will have an advantage over anyone that does or cannot have AUR. This game lets you buy better gear and items than everyone else at a faster rate. So using AUR you can buy better gear before another player may be able to using normal grinding methods. Show me a better source for the definition and I will accept defeat. Until then live in your illusion. CCP Ratatti, I bet you never spent a real dime on AUR and if you did you got scammed out of a paycheck. I really mean that. Even in restaurants you get a free dinner and sometimes 2 meals for long shifts. You just lost a bet. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 1657	Posted - 2014.07.07 04:46:00 - [29] - Quote Dust has no Pay to win. All equipment has their ISk/FW variant. everything is obtainable, easily with isk. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Eko Sol Strange Playings 522	Posted - 2014.07.07 04:57:00 - [30] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Eko Sol wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I wouldn't call dust P2W, as anything you get with AUR is functionally the same as ISK gear. In reality, it wouldn't make any difference if you were killed by someone with proto ISK gear or proto AUR gear. Urban Dictionary states that "pay to win" is defines as: Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. 1) I know that Urban Dictionary doesn't count but until someone provides a better source you are screwed. 2) 2 new players start the game, one uses AUR for better gear and boosters, the other can't. The 1st one has paid for an advantage that the other cannot have at that time. THe fact that, at some point, someone will have the same skill, sp, isk, gear, etc. as an AUR doesn't change the fact that AT SOME POINT DURING THE GAME PLAYING PROCESS 2 new players will have different access to different "stuff" in which the one with AUR will have an advantage over anyone that does or cannot have AUR. This game lets you buy better gear and items than everyone else at a faster rate. So using AUR you can buy better gear before another player may be able to using normal grinding methods. Show me a better source for the definition and I will accept defeat. Until then live in your illusion. CCP Ratatti, I bet you never spent a real dime on AUR and if you did you got scammed out of a paycheck. I really mean that. Even in restaurants you get a free dinner and sometimes 2 meals for long shifts. You just lost a bet. HAHA, I wasn't being mean. I really didn't think you would even be allowed to spend AUR. GG, you win. PSN is "Ekopalm" Playing: Murdered Soul Suspect WIP: Child of Light, MGS5 Welcome to play with me anytime, message me.

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2142	Posted - 2014.07.07 05:12:00 - [31] - Quote Dust is not P2W. The advantage given by AUR gear is marginal, especially when the support skills are lacking. Furthermore, peeps using AUR gear are typically giving up CPU/PG, so there is an in-game price to be paid for trying to fast track via RMT. As far as the AUR suits go, those extra slots will buy a partially trained character a fraction of a second of TTL, or slightly better damping, or a little more mobility or dps. There are many far more important battlefield variables that determine the outcome of an encounter. A bum in all proto still fights like a bum. Of all the things that need to be fixed in Dust, P2W is towards the bottom of a long list. PSN: RationalSpark
Got That Dodi RestlessSpirits 0	Posted - 2014.07.07 06:34:00 - [32] - Quote The ghost of DunkMujunk says shame on the vets still around from before the great fanfest exodus. I've kept an eye on the forums and the proliferation of stupidity that has come with the wave of post fanfest trainees makes me sad. I would have hoped the old timers would have straightened you greenhorns out, but I guess it is the few against the many. @OP, yes, the game needs to be fixed. But that is the essence of Dust. It took CCP how many years to fck everyone at fanfest? 2+? Now they are running with a skeleton crew. Enjoy what you have because its not getting much better till.........till Legio-gag.....till Legaaaaaag.......till BAAAAAARRFFFFF* cough cough. Excuse me. Its not getting any better till they port Dust to the PC in 2037.
PANDA UZIMAKI SINISTER DEATH SQUAD 8	Posted - 2014.07.07 08:16:00 - [33] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: My crappy KDR is living proof of it not being P2W . Other players have said it better above, but just take any BF or CoD game, you have to grind and grind to unlock the best weapons plus superior weapons in DLC. DUST needs the same dedication and actually allows you to choose your own progression instead of following the preset unlocks. idk my dragon assault and toxin AR with a few basic mods on it just destroys. but I notice in the store sometimes you guys drop proto weapons down from 45-50aur to like 20 aur I think? and if I dropped 20$ right then and there I would be able to buy 2150 varrients of any type of proto weapon again if my math isn't wrong on the price drop if I remember right. so that kind of does make it literally a pay to win game right there. (normally would be 860)
deezy dabest Sacred Initiative of Combat Killers 725	Posted - 2014.07.07 08:30:00 - [34] - Quote Vladimir Scovachek wrote: It's so funny how one P2W person kills my whole team by himself without losing any of his armor. That is just bull crap. Why do the low quality players have to suffer? I can not say it any better than those above but seriously the game is not pay to win. Even if you buy an equal proto weapon you are missing out on the passives as well as proficiency and other SP related benefits. When it comes to boosters you are only paying for a short cut where you get more by playing less. The only argument that could be made against that is from the broken SP cap allowing people to gain SP in a week at a much faster rate than someone who does not pay will ever have a chance at. This argument holds little weight as you still have to play your way into getting that benefit. Laser focused in a room full of mirrors. Everything you ever wanted coming SoonGäó just keep buying boosters.
Cody Sietz SVER True Blood Dark Taboo 3496	Posted - 2014.07.07 11:31:00 - [35] - Quote It's not P2W, but there are certain tactics that work better then others. Some cheesy, some legit. The thing is, we are always being balanced. A play style that is OP will be balanced and become UP(sometimes) or just becomes even with other play styles. Everything needs a counter(And no, it should not only be countered by the same thing, that's just stupid.) because this is a video game, and this game relies heavily on a rock/paper/scissor style. I think it should go a bit further with that tbh, but that's just me. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Derpty Derp It's All Gone Derp 207	Posted - 2014.07.07 11:43:00 - [36] - Quote Vladimir Scovachek wrote: It's so funny how one P2W person kills my whole team by himself without losing any of his armor. That is just bull crap. Why do the low quality players have to suffer? If someone killed your whole team without losing armour, well you're all very bad shots and no amount of upgrades will help you... Even with shield based armour he's gotta die if your whole team is there.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 1001	Posted - 2014.07.07 12:20:00 - [37] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: You still seem to competly ignore that actual skill trumps SP everytime. Here I have to partly disagree. SP gives a huge advantage you get (even IF you are using the same gear) 25% more eHP alone by the suit + 10% more HP for shield and armor modules + 15% more damage to either shield or armor + whatever bonus is linked to to operation skill eg. (A)CR a huge Accuracy bonus ~ 32 % more PG/CPU to equip better more gear... You get all this by SP while using the same or similar gear now if you throw in proto gear in addition...all of the above get improved by more damage/range (Weapon) and even more health/flexibility (Suit/modules). So I would say the advantage you gain through SP is HUGE. Sure If you are way better than the other player you still can win but if you meet someone with comparable or even less skill that has way more health and damage and range he can easily beat you just by SP and the gear these SP grant you access to. You would be surprised how many proto stomper I have met that aren't really a threat once they use std or militia gear (of course there are those that can kill you anyway because they ARE simply better but there those as well that win mainly because of gear and SP)
Cenex Langly Dude.Man.Bro 770	Posted - 2014.07.07 12:49:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: My crappy KDR is living proof of it not being P2W . Other players have said it better above, but just take any BF or CoD game, you have to grind and grind to unlock the best weapons plus superior weapons in DLC. DUST needs the same dedication and actually allows you to choose your own progression instead of following the preset unlocks. And I'm living proof that the payouts in this game are abysmal. There is absolutely no way to maintain any positive ISK balance without running some bullshit cheap fittings that make your KDR sink into the black hole of death. The only way to maintain any kind of net positive ISK balance is to buy aurum otherwise to run PC at least twice 2-3 times a week and pretty much over half the community doesn't PC... (at least with the average of 30-40 PC's a day this isn't possible to get everyone in). [edit] not to mention that HALF of those who PC will lose and make zero ISK but lose a HUGE amount of ISK in the process... Something needs to be done here. Newb
OgTheEnigma The Rainbow Effect 192	Posted - 2014.07.07 12:54:00 - [39] - Quote Vladimir Scovachek wrote: It's so funny how one P2W person kills my whole team by himself without losing any of his armor. That is just bull crap. Why do the low quality players have to suffer? Were you in the Ambush game yesterday where I went 41/0, by chance? For the record I don't use AURUM gear and have never even purchased any directly. I've only ever bought a couple of mercenary packs for the purpose of getting boosters and BPOs.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15790	Posted - 2014.07.07 19:44:00 - [40] - Quote Also FW gives access to the very same weapons the AUR buyer is using CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Minmatar Sentinel =// Unlocked

Cenex Langly Dude.Man.Bro 771	Posted - 2014.07.07 19:47:00 - [41] - Quote ResistanceGTA wrote: jenza aranda wrote: P2W is a very old subject in dust and I still maintain its not P2W, (not that i am disagreeing with you that the game needs to be fixed) Pay to win means to get a definitive advantage over non paying players in game, items a non paying player can't get. Every Aurum item just allows you to access better gear sooner but holds no actual advantage in terms of stats. All you need to do is save up your SP a little longer and you have them. Why does everyone say that you unlock the same weapon sooner? Aren't all Aurum weapons actually inferior? I mean, the passives may not matter to everyone, but, I can tell the difference when I use a Kaalakiota Tactical Sniper Rifle on my main with Lvl 5 Operation versus using a Horizon with only Lvl 3.., According to the Meta Level the Aurum weapons are usually 1-2 levels higher (i.e., lvl 7/8). I can imagine that they give more payout in a match due to the higher meta level and probably add some kind of bonus from their higher level. But you're right. It's better to have the skills to back it up. I personally use Aurum to substitute in for a proto weapon/suit so I can build my ISK reserves. Otherwise I'm pretty much broke. Newb
Greiv Rabbah KiLo. 11	Posted - 2014.07.07 20:13:00 - [42] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Eko Sol wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I wouldn't call dust P2W, as anything you get with AUR is functionally the same as ISK gear. In reality, it wouldn't make any difference if you were killed by someone with proto ISK gear or proto AUR gear. Urban Dictionary states that "pay to win" is defines as: Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. 1) I know that Urban Dictionary doesn't count but until someone provides a better source you are screwed. 2) 2 new players start the game, one uses AUR for better gear and boosters, the other can't. The 1st one has paid for an advantage that the other cannot have at that time. THe fact that, at some point, someone will have the same skill, sp, isk, gear, etc. as an AUR doesn't change the fact that AT SOME POINT DURING THE GAME PLAYING PROCESS 2 new players will have different access to different "stuff" in which the one with AUR will have an advantage over anyone that does or cannot have AUR. This game lets you buy better gear and items than everyone else at a faster rate. So using AUR you can buy better gear before another player may be able to using normal grinding methods. Show me a better source for the definition and I will accept defeat. Until then live in your illusion. CCP Ratatti, I bet you never spent a real dime on AUR and if you did you got scammed out of a paycheck. I really mean that. Even in restaurants you get a free dinner and sometimes 2 meals for long shifts. You just lost a bet. HAHA, I wasn't being mean. I really didn't think you would even be allowed to spend AUR. GG, you win. You'd be surprised how often donations for a software project are devs throwing g in what they can spare to keep their baby alive lol
Greiv Rabbah KiLo. 11	Posted - 2014.07.07 20:20:00 - [43] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Also FW gives access to the very same weapons the AUR buyer is using Can I like this more???
Sylwester Dziewiecki Interregnum. 322	Posted - 2014.07.07 21:02:00 - [44] - Quote On the one hand I want strongly deny that Dust 514 is P2W game, and on the other not really. We must distinguish long term P2W from short term P2W. In BF2 I can buy all weapons and attachments to fighters, thats P2W(in short term) - it's give pretty much instant advantage over person that do not have cash for this unlock. In the Dust the differences are visible after a long period of time - the person who bought regularly throughout the entire year boosters has greater adaptability on the battlefield, because he has more SP. Dust is slightly P2W. Open market will(slightly) fix it. Nosum Hseebnrido
Killar-12 The Exemplars Top Men. 2913	Posted - 2014.07.07 21:14:00 - [45] - Quote Vladimir Scovachek wrote: It's so funny how one P2W person kills my whole team by himself without losing any of his armor. That is just bull crap. Why do the low quality players have to suffer? If you'd like I can Proto Stomp you with ISK proto gear... 21-Day EVE Trial
Aoena Rays Bragian Order Amarr Empire 506	Posted - 2014.07.08 05:14:00 - [46] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: My crappy KDR is living proof of it not being P2W . Other players have said it better above, but just take any BF or CoD game, you have to grind and grind to unlock the best weapons plus superior weapons in DLC. DUST needs the same dedication and actually allows you to choose your own progression instead of following the preset unlocks. Agreed. Nothing PTW in this game. Story of your life
calvin b Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1691	Posted - 2014.07.08 07:12:00 - [47] - Quote Hate to say it but I have loads of Aurum gear I won since closed Beta. I still have near 300 steelmine HMG's, 150 Quafe suits, assortment of all suits and weapons some not even on the market and some you have never heard of. I used to have 2 types of officer SMG's but for some reason they have disappeared. The point is I can run Aurum gear I earned for weeks and still would probably not run out. Closed Beta Vet and Heavy, so no I am not FOTM I am an Antique
Mortedeamor Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1781	Posted - 2014.07.08 10:47:00 - [48] - Quote jenza aranda wrote: P2W is a very old subject in dust and I still maintain its not P2W, (not that i am disagreeing with you that the game needs to be fixed) Pay to win means to get a definitive advantage over non paying players in game, items a non paying player can't get. Every Aurum item just allows you to access better gear sooner but holds no actual advantage in terms of stats. All you need to do is save up your SP a little longer and you have them. in fact an aurum proto suit without the sp invested to back it up is really weak in comparison to those of us who work hard for our skills. proto vs proto a skilled vets suit wins anyday vs a non sp invested aur piece of trash.you shouldnt be complaining about the people who use aur gear..when they dont have the sp invested..you should feel sorry for them...they are spending rl money to have an edge that THEY need because they suck at dust. and really its not an edge at all..... if gear without sp makes that much a difference you were destined for failure anyway. 1 they are weaker without sp and time invested 2 they cost rl money 3 they are cannon fodder enjoy em pitty them dont cry about them
RayRay James Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 210	Posted - 2014.07.08 13:52:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: ... and actually allows you to choose your own progression instead of following the preset unlocks. And if this ever changes :cough: fanfest presentation :cough: it will be the death of Legion
NAV HIV The Generals Anime Empire. 1865	Posted - 2014.07.08 15:03:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: My crappy KDR is living proof of it not being P2W . Other players have said it better above, but just take any BF or CoD game, you have to grind and grind to unlock the best weapons plus superior weapons in DLC. DUST needs the same dedication and actually allows you to choose your own progression instead of following the preset unlocks. I use AUR gear cause i love ISK more.. If anyone thinks that my AUR gear kills them faster is because I have my SP invested into it... All the weapons i use i have Prof 5 on it... So the OPs points are a bit invalid... My issue with the game is when 5 guys with prof 5 weapon shoots at the some Red dot and that person remains intact and hits don't register... I have noticed this with some very specific players and players from some very specific CORPs... Framerate and lag in PC is an old issue... But i've seen players go 40-2 using Shotgun... Trust me i use the same gun with all the SP invested in it... but when 5 guys shooting at that players doesn't even move his shield then there is something fishy going on there... "Negative Aim-Assit" Don't know if anyone here has experienced it, but i've been hearing that quite a lot recently. Experienced it personally. Scenario: Red Dot Stands still and aims at a Blue dot... Me 30M away from the RED dot, shooting a Six kin CR on his back with damage mod and Pof 5... Sharpshooter 5... Didn't hit a single bullet, he turned and i ran... I knew, i couldn't do much there anymore and it'd be pointless to even try.... CCP if you are serious about fixing this game, Please start by making it playable... It's not on PC yet, so let's wait for the modded stuff till then... Using a Modded controller for a Boundless CR and feeling elite lol... It's not skills... Just more crutches...

Greiv Rabbah KiLo. 11	Posted - 2014.07.11 11:17:00 - [51] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: jenza aranda wrote: P2W is a very old subject in dust and I still maintain its not P2W, (not that i am disagreeing with you that the game needs to be fixed) Pay to win means to get a definitive advantage over non paying players in game, items a non paying player can't get. Every Aurum item just allows you to access better gear sooner but holds no actual advantage in terms of stats. All you need to do is save up your SP a little longer and you have them. in fact an aurum proto suit without the sp invested to back it up is really weak in comparison to those of us who work hard for our skills. proto vs proto a skilled vets suit wins anyday vs a non sp invested aur piece of trash.you shouldnt be complaining about the people who use aur gear..when they dont have the sp invested..you should feel sorry for them...they are spending rl money to have an edge that THEY need because they suck at dust. and really its not an edge at all..... if gear without sp makes that much a difference you were destined for failure anyway. 1 they are weaker without sp and time invested 2 they cost rl money 3 they are cannon fodder enjoy em pitty them dont cry about them You totally missed the point. He was saying boosters are p2w not aur gear. And doubling xp gain in an mmo does present a discernible advantage, esp over time. Part of me says to this "ppl who play for free shouldn't ***** bc others are supporting THEIRfree to play experience" but part of me says "this is definitely a little pay to win" but I don't think its that bad. I mean it just makes your character less " new"... And a drug addict (boosters are drugs in new eden!!!) But really to complain about boosters which keep this game alive... Nobody cares. Downtimes over. go kill ppl
Nirwanda Vaughns 426th Infantry 641	Posted - 2014.07.11 11:51:00 - [52] - Quote oh yawn how sub par players always whine about pay to win cos they die with some AUR gear or someone has higher SP than them, blah blah blah. i've been here since closed beta and run active and [passive boosters up until the point CCP flushed this turd at fanfest and i'm just short of 55m sp and stored up close to a billion isk. does this make me the best player in the game? does it f**k. i'm still a sub par FPS gamer and i can have people take me out in standard gear if they're better than me or catch me off guard. just as when i use my 5m sp alt i can take proto guys out with my recruit rifle[ if i catch them off guard. you might be able to get early access to weapons with aur but you also lose 2 or 4 levels of skill bonus applied to that weapon too. my lv5 AR exile will be more accurate than your paid for AUR GEK or duvolle. my STD BPO will still receive the bonus of having the skills to lv5 than your paid loyalty or AUR proto suit will. Rolling with the punches
F54423 Lacuna. 65	Posted - 2014.07.11 11:52:00 - [53] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Also FW gives access to the very same weapons the AUR buyer is using I don't think Dust is p2w at all, but let's not use FW as an example. Has anyone tried getting into a FW battle lately? That queue has wasted so much of my time. More like Play to Wait.... So sad. FW is so good in EVE. "They call us GÇ£Kilm'ach.GÇ¥ The Lost. We are the demons of their Scriptures. The Beast made real..."
Talon Paetznick II Gallente Federation Resistance 31	Posted - 2014.07.11 13:08:00 - [54] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Eko Sol wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: [quote=Eko Sol]In Dust's case I have a serious issue with the debate for P2W. 1st, the best uplink in the game is AUR if you don't go into the LP store. Even if you only get 5 spawns just be a advanced A-Logi and you get 11. LP store is free is it not, does that not solve the issue? The whole point of the LP store is to get 'AUR-Named' items with paying for them. 2nd, There are TONS of BPO's that give people huge advantages. Running BPO's saves isk for the times you want Proto. No new player has this advantage. BPO's only apply to standard gear, which is only marginally (as in just barely) better than mlt. New players have access to 3 unlimited fits, for the entire duration of the game,, without paying a dime. 3rd, If you are like me and make a good living then you buy tons of omega's every time you can. Then use them on events. Hence why I have only played since like November and have almost 30 mil SP. Tell me that is truly not an advantage? You can have 300mil SP, but as I'm sure you are aware SP only gets you so far, just because you have more SP does not make you any more likely to beat me in my mlt amarr suit 4th, Being able to purchase an item above your current SP is a way of paying to win. You get more PG/CPU thus more HP and, typically, do more damage. The advantage is small but for experienced and skilled FPS players it is gigantic. If we had a matchmaking system that put AUR proto gear with traditional advanced gear, then yesmthat would undoubtedly be a pay to win feature, but considering we have NO matchmaking, no its not. This game may not be P2W in the traditional sense but in some ways it is definitely P2W on the lower part of the spectrum. There is no debate on the matter. The facts are facts. There is plenty of debate over the matter, the fact fact that you have to, give arguements to prove your point, shows this. The fact this, thread even exsists shows it is very much up for debate. OP, unfortunately just because he is in AUR gear is not the reason he beat you. The reason he beat you is because, he beat you. Chances are he was in proto variant gear in which case, it wouldn't matter if he was AUR or not he would still have clobbered you all the same. I wasn't giving facts to prove an argument I was just stating that you can pay to get something better than those that don't pay hence it is P2W. Your rebuttles are terrible. They still prove me to be correct. Someone brand new without doing anything but buying AUR and AUR items can have an advantage over someone else that is brand new that can't afford it. So you completly actually ignore the arguements then? I'll say again, BPO's give pretty minimal improvements, litterally the difference is PG/CPU usage. If I paid 30 quid for a BPO I'd be damn dissapointed. You still seem to competly ignore that actual skill trumps SP everytime. Being able to pay for suits over your current SP if anything gives you a disadvantage. Since you don't recieve the bonuses and passive boosts. An AUR Proto at Advanced SP is worse off then a Proto at Proto SP. The only thing you can actually pertain to argue is the boosters, but once you get past about 5 mill SP you can have all the important upgrades in Dropsuit Upgrades, so we are once again on pretty even ground. More SP just means you can be more wasteful, it gives you more choice but the end result can still be the same. You do not get enough of an advantage for it to be P2W, for an example of PSW I would refer you to ES online, you can pay with real money for gear that is blantantly overpowered, that is P2W, since the advantage you recieve is enough to make victory assured. [/quote he is right, on the battlefield skill trumps sp and sp trumps aur I can take on a proto hvy in a basic scout minmitar dropsuit using only adv nova knives WITHOUT CLOAKING (with cloak however my job is made much easier dust math: getting killed by ion pistol = dropping the soap,useful item= nerfhammer, protostomp= WHY GOD!!!
Forlorn Destrier Vengeance Unbound 2670	Posted - 2014.07.11 13:17:00 - [55] - Quote jenza aranda wrote: P2W is a very old subject in dust and I still maintain its not P2W, (not that i am disagreeing with you that the game needs to be fixed) Pay to win means to get a definitive advantage over non paying players in game, items a non paying player can't get. Every Aurum item just allows you to access better gear sooner but holds no actual advantage in terms of stats. All you need to do is save up your SP a little longer and you have them. This. Agree with Jenza 100%. I am the Forgotten Warhorse, the Lord of Lightning
Yokal Bob Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dark Taboo 555	Posted - 2014.07.11 13:23:00 - [56] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: In Dust's case I have a serious issue with the debate for P2W. 1st, the best uplink in the game is AUR if you don't go into the LP store. Even if you only get 5 spawns just be a advanced A-Logi and you get 11. 2nd, There are TONS of BPO's that give people huge advantages. Running BPO's saves isk for the times you want Proto. No new player has this advantage. 3rd, If you are like me and make a good living then you buy tons of omega's every time you can. Then use them on events. Hence why I have only played since like November and have almost 30 mil SP. Tell me that is truly not an advantage? 4th, Being able to purchase an item above your current SP is a way of paying to win. You get more PG/CPU thus more HP and, typically, do more damage. The advantage is small but for experienced and skilled FPS players it is gigantic. This game may not be P2W in the traditional sense but in some ways it is definitely P2W on the lower part of the spectrum. There is no debate on the matter. The facts are facts. LOYALTY STORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If its not anime, its not real
Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect Dark Taboo 1463	Posted - 2014.07.11 13:27:00 - [57] - Quote Vladimir Scovachek wrote: It's so funny how one P2W person kills my whole team by himself without losing any of his armor. That is just bull crap. Why do the low quality players have to suffer? Git gud.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3062	Posted - 2014.07.11 13:33:00 - [58] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Eko Sol wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Eko Sol wrote: In Dust's case I have a serious issue with the debate for P2W. 1st, the best uplink in the game is AUR if you don't go into the LP store. Even if you only get 5 spawns just be a advanced A-Logi and you get 11. LP store is free is it not, does that not solve the issue? The whole point of the LP store is to get 'AUR-Named' items with paying for them. 2nd, There are TONS of BPO's that give people huge advantages. Running BPO's saves isk for the times you want Proto. No new player has this advantage. BPO's only apply to standard gear, which is only marginally (as in just barely) better than mlt. New players have access to 3 unlimited fits, for the entire duration of the game,, without paying a dime. 3rd, If you are like me and make a good living then you buy tons of omega's every time you can. Then use them on events. Hence why I have only played since like November and have almost 30 mil SP. Tell me that is truly not an advantage? You can have 300mil SP, but as I'm sure you are aware SP only gets you so far, just because you have more SP does not make you any more likely to beat me in my mlt amarr suit 4th, Being able to purchase an item above your current SP is a way of paying to win. You get more PG/CPU thus more HP and, typically, do more damage. The advantage is small but for experienced and skilled FPS players it is gigantic. If we had a matchmaking system that put AUR proto gear with traditional advanced gear, then yesmthat would undoubtedly be a pay to win feature, but considering we have NO matchmaking, no its not. This game may not be P2W in the traditional sense but in some ways it is definitely P2W on the lower part of the spectrum. There is no debate on the matter. The facts are facts. There is plenty of debate over the matter, the fact fact that you have to, give arguements to prove your point, shows this. The fact this, thread even exsists shows it is very much up for debate. OP, unfortunately just because he is in AUR gear is not the reason he beat you. The reason he beat you is because, he beat you. Chances are he was in proto variant gear in which case, it wouldn't matter if he was AUR or not he would still have clobbered you all the same. I wasn't giving facts to prove an argument I was just stating that you can pay to get something better than those that don't pay hence it is P2W. Your rebuttles are terrible. They still prove me to be correct. Someone brand new without doing anything but buying AUR and AUR items can have an advantage over someone else that is brand new that can't afford it. So you completly actually ignore the arguements then? I'll say again, BPO's give pretty minimal improvements, litterally the difference is PG/CPU usage. If I paid 30 quid for a BPO I'd be damn dissapointed. You still seem to competly ignore that actual skill trumps SP everytime. Being able to pay for suits over your current SP if anything gives you a disadvantage. Since you don't recieve the bonuses and passive boosts. An AUR Proto at Advanced SP is worse off then a Proto at Proto SP. The only thing you can actually pertain to argue is the boosters, but once you get past about 5 mill SP you can have all the important upgrades in Dropsuit Upgrades, so we are once again on pretty even ground. More SP just means you can be more wasteful, it gives you more choice but the end result can still be the same. You do not get enough of an advantage for it to be P2W, for an example of PSW I would refer you to ES online, you can pay with real money for gear that is blantantly overpowered, that is P2W, since the advantage you recieve is enough to make victory assured. Yes I am ignoring your idiotic "arguments". 32 brand new players started the game and 16 happened to be in the same side of the match all with 40k AUR and the other 16 on the other side that do not have any AUR. Take that, and then tell me that the side with the AUR has no advantage. Assume every player has equal skill in FPS's, use default settings, and never played or watch the game played before. The fact is that the AUR side will have the advantage. Period. As long as you can gain ANY advantage using real world money over ANY player that also plays automatically makes this a low spectrum P2W operation. Your arguments don't mean squat. I don't care that someone buys aurum and is still at a disadvantage over vets. That doesn't' mean you don't get an advantage when buying aur over other new players that cannot. Until you can prove that there is ZERO P2W in the game you will have ZERO validity in your "argument". It is P2W. Get over it. I'm done mentoring you padawan. You are own your own now and must find your own path within the force. I'll now place you in on Alderaan a bit before the major catastrophe. Wait, wrong universe right? If these players were all equal skill level, and had never played the game before it would be balanced for 1 simple reason. They would only be capable of fitting out std AUR gear. Now if you think STD is that much greater than mlt, I would happily, give you a duel, me in my front line suit you in an AUR STD suit. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
aaaasdff ertgfdd Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 101	Posted - 2014.07.11 13:44:00 - [59] - Quote Rynoceros wrote: The only P2W item are Boosters, which allow you to advance at a higher rate than somebody that never bought anything, and as we all know; Better Gear, Better Base Stats = Win. The use of Aurum weapons mean that either the player won them, bought them because they don't have enough skills, wanted to be more ISK efficient, or were saps for CCP's appropriately thin marketing campaign. I kill proto many times a day in std or adv gear. So yes better base stats help, but they dont trump my thumbs. Best part about getting some skill in your hands is they can not nerf it.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3062	Posted - 2014.07.11 14:14:00 - [60] - Quote Eko Sol wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I wouldn't call dust P2W, as anything you get with AUR is functionally the same as ISK gear. In reality, it wouldn't make any difference if you were killed by someone with proto ISK gear or proto AUR gear. Urban Dictionary states that "pay to win" is defines as: Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate AND then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying. Let's take a look at that statement you provided. The first section is that you must be able to buy or make better gear at a faster rate than people who don't play. Now we can all agree AURUM allows you to buy better gear faster, that is afterall the whole point of AURUM. Be tomorrow's mercanary today, with AURUM however the 2nd statement is connected by an AND, what this means is that both halves of the statement must be true in order for the entire sentence to be considersd fact. So the second half is that this currency-obtained gear must: make the game largely unbalanced even for people who skill in the game but don't pay. And this Eko, is where your entire arguement falls apart. AURUM gear does not give yoh an advantage over a skilled player, irrespective of what time period they have been playing. A proto AUR suit does not give any advantage over a proto ISK suit. A proto AUR suit does not give any more of an advantage over an ADV ISK suit then a proto ISK suit does. AURUM in short gives you no benifits over it's ISK compatriates and is only better if you already have all the skills required for an ISK version. In short the dictionary you are using to disprove other peoples contradicts your own arguement. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3

TechMechMeds Inner.Hell 3844	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:01:00 - [61] - Quote I'd call it 'pay to not care about dying' Spamming proto aurum since beta. Be vigilant!, for there are those that remove the teabag before adding milk!.
Guiltless D667 43	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:53:00 - [62] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: My crappy KDR is living proof of it not being P2W . Other players have said it better above, but just take any BF or CoD game, you have to grind and grind to unlock the best weapons plus superior weapons in DLC. DUST needs the same dedication and actually allows you to choose your own progression instead of following the preset unlocks. but atleast those games have a constants everyone abides by(such as HP) where as in dust there is no such thing to speak of,those games are more balanced than dust will ever be. A Strange Game.
gauntlet44 LbowDeep Heaven84 Devils General Tso's Alliance 79	Posted - 2014.07.11 17:37:00 - [63] - Quote it is pay to have fun, not pay to win you can win without paying but its not very much fun Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, make it uniquely your own........ Bruce Lee
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1271	Posted - 2014.07.11 17:47:00 - [64] - Quote Heres a hint--spec into the HMG and a sentinel suit, and all your worries will be forgotten....its impossible to do poorly in a HMG wielding heavy Kills- Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
deezy dabest Sacred Initiative of Combat Killers 753	Posted - 2014.07.11 17:51:00 - [65] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Heres a hint--spec into the HMG and a sentinel suit, and all your worries will be forgotten....its impossible to do poorly in a HMG wielding heavy I think the HMG nerf is going to make this untrue. Veteran users will not have a problem with the heat build up but new users who think it is a spray and pray weapon will be dropping like flies to shotgun scouts. Laser focused in a room full of mirrors. Everything you ever wanted coming SoonGäó just keep buying boosters.
axINVICTUSxa DETHDEALERS RISE of LEGION 182	Posted - 2014.07.11 18:38:00 - [66] - Quote Vladimir Scovachek wrote: That is just bull crap. Why do the low quality players have to suffer? Izvinite, but what else can I say? You said it best yourself. Why do low quality players have to suffer? Because they are low quality, that is why. In this dog-eat-dog mercenary world, the lowly and poorer mercenaries will get owned by the best and the brightest. Simple as that. Skill > Tech every and any day. Wherever the Wind (Aero) might take me, may it ever be True, for the way of the Commando is noble and right.
CRNWLLC Gangsta Gank 361	Posted - 2014.07.11 19:04:00 - [67] - Quote jenza aranda wrote: P2W is a very old subject in dust and I still maintain its not P2W, (not that i am disagreeing with you that the game needs to be fixed) Pay to win means to get a definitive advantage over non paying players in game, items a non paying player can't get. Every Aurum item just allows you to access better gear sooner but holds no actual advantage in terms of stats. All you need to do is save up your SP a little longer and you have them. What about those AUR items that accelerate your SP gain? What are those called again...? Oh, that's right! BOOSTERS!!! Nope, not P2W. Not at all. Because AUR is only used to gain early access to regular items. Thanks for being the guiding hand of reason and the protector of the p[l]ayer community, CPM!
CRNWLLC Gangsta Gank 362	Posted - 2014.07.11 19:55:00 - [68] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: My crappy KDR is living proof of it not being P2W . Other players have said it better above, but just take any BF or CoD game, you have to grind and grind to unlock the best weapons plus superior weapons in DLC. DUST needs the same dedication and actually allows you to choose your own progression instead of following the preset unlocks. Or maybe it's just evidence of your lack of skill?
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. General Tso's Alliance 2176	Posted - 2014.07.11 20:06:00 - [69] - Quote CRNWLLC wrote: jenza aranda wrote: P2W is a very old subject in dust and I still maintain its not P2W, (not that i am disagreeing with you that the game needs to be fixed) Pay to win means to get a definitive advantage over non paying players in game, items a non paying player can't get. Every Aurum item just allows you to access better gear sooner but holds no actual advantage in terms of stats. All you need to do is save up your SP a little longer and you have them. What about those AUR items that accelerate your SP gain? What are those called again...? Oh, that's right! BOOSTERS!!! Nope, not P2W. Not at all. Because AUR is only used to gain early access to regular items. Thanks for being the guiding hand of reason and the protector of the p[l]ayer community, CPM! Boosters are pay to get something sooner. The peoples who are fortunate enough to have enough recreational time to grind out the video game items with no RL cash get a benefit.. And the ones having to work 60 hour weeks can invest some of their expendable income to stay on par... While funding the games very existence No one item you can pay for is better then another. There has been some cases that has happened in DUST's history.. COntact grenades being one of of the biggest. But that issue CCP has been quick to respond to and fix when there has been a mistake or injustice to the general concept of the micro-transaction business model in DUST. The main assumption you have as a player with 10million skill points.. is that there are just so many things to get for skills it would take you forever.. and really your about 5-6 million to having a specialized role in DUST 514 pretty much fully maxed out. Meaning if you chose to be a Gallente Proto-Sentinel.. you would have a full proto module and suit loadout in that chosen profession.. Essentially capping you at that specialization from gaining any further advantage from skills or modules.. They call this "End game" At that point it doesn't matter if you purchased 30 passive omega booster to get there.. or whatever. your maxed out. Dust 514 is Pay to get there sooner, Pay to not care about losses in game but instead your credit card? But for some reason killing someone with Aurum feels even better then killing someone with Officer.. I Wonder if CCP intended this?


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