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Skybladev2
LUX AETERNA INT
RUST415
117
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Posted - 2014.07.01 07:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm curious, why forgegun is so precise weapon. It should have some dispersion. Now it too powerful, because having DPS comparable to Large Railguns it have no tracking issues, so players can easily aim at close targets and shoot enemies at max range with efficiency compared to sniper rifles (don't tell me it has wide crosshair instead of dot crosshair, this is not an issue).
I propose to add some noise to forge projectiles so it could not act as all-in-one AV-sniping weapon. Sniping must be performed by snipers and small/large rail turrets, as they have heavy solid mount.
<[^_^]>
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TheEnd762
SVER True Blood
Dirt Nap Squad.
520
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Posted - 2014.07.01 08:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Because it has no zoom, slows the user to a crawl when charging/holding a charge, and because 90% of the time tanks and dropships can drive/fly out of it's effective range before a second shot can be fired, or just kill the shooter. |
Skybladev2
LUX AETERNA INT
RUST415
117
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Posted - 2014.07.01 08:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
TheEnd762 wrote:Because it has no zoom, slows the user to a crawl when charging/holding a charge, and because 90% of the time tanks and dropships can drive/fly out of it's effective range before a second shot can be fired, or just kill the shooter.
Tanks may kill, but killing heavy from dropship is very hard task, because they too armored, and while you are shooting at him (remember, you can not see whether it heavy or not from above, all people appear as ants) he shoots you and breaks your aim. So forge vs dropship at close range has obvious winner. But, moreover, forges are able to snipe dropships at extreme ranges, which is not fair.
<[^_^]>
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1093
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Posted - 2014.07.01 11:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
TheEnd762 wrote:Because it has no zoom, slows the user to a crawl when charging/holding a charge, and because 90% of the time tanks and dropships can drive/fly out of it's effective range before a second shot can be fired, or just kill the shooter.
No zoom slightly reduces sniper use yes.
Movement slowing is not an issue at all.
Tanks and dropships do not have a killing superiority over the forge gunner. DSs have no way to kill from afar. Rail tanks have that capability but then it's a moderate advantage to the tank in the duel. MSL tanks even less so.
Vehicle leaving close encounter quickly is irrelevant to the pinpoint accuracy discussion we are talking.
About the max range,
I claim that the forge's unnerfed accuracy forced the disappointing max range cap to be implemented.
Forges used to have far longer range than 300m: at least 600m and at some stage maybe more.
In short: Too accurate, therefore we lost the range. =(
Discussion from that time
:-S
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1093
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Posted - 2014.07.01 11:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
I repeat my earlier suggestion:
Still the good way to handle forge sniping would be to fix the cosmetic only charge up shake.
SUGGESTION: Make forge shots go where the sight is while shaking
It is supposed to be a balancing factor for aiming, but it is just the shake of the gun and sights - the shot still goes dead center.
Which can be abused by having tape/monitor feature.
Hence the forge sniping issue and all dropships dead within 300-400m radius.
Having the shake REALLY affect where the forge shot goes does the following:
- It would still be possible to kill infantry at extreme range, but it would take both skill and a bit of luck. Not just to have red reticle.
- Far better way than to nerf forge damage at range, that would make it purely close up weapon =(
- Far better way than to nerf forge damage vs infantry, that shot should still kill. And nerfing vs infantry only would make fg users even more defenseless against AR infantry in close
- Shake would make it harder to lock down the entire map by forging from top of skyscrapers. It would still be possible to harass and occasionally kill, even tanks, but not godlike total domination
- Currently it is very hard to balance dropships as they have to face anti HAV weapons full on, even at extreme ranges.
- Forge would be still very powerful as it would still be easy to hit up to medium range.
ADDENDUM: This way Forge Guns get some of their previous range back, with balance!
:-S
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
581
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Posted - 2014.07.01 12:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
@KEROSINI-TERO: I approve.
My biggest gripe about FGs as a pilot I that even as I disengage, 'burner on and at full tilt, they're still reaching out incredibly far and a good Forger will land hits often. Two Forgers make any place almost utterly unassailable by an ADS, when they are heavy AV and designed to put down HAVs.
Reduce the accuracy, best method for keeping it in check, I agree.
Edit: doesn't need to be reduced much, just so it goes where the cross hair is pointing as KEROSINI said. |
Harpyja
Legio DXIV
1973
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Posted - 2014.07.01 13:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
TheEnd762 wrote:Because it has no zoom, slows the user to a crawl when charging/holding a charge, and because 90% of the time tanks and dropships can drive/fly out of it's effective range before a second shot can be fired, or just kill the shooter.
I'll never try to engage a fatty with an Ishy Assault FG with any vehicle. Three shots to my Python and it's dead. Large missiles are not reliable enough to kill a fatty. Railgun is OK but they can still go left-right-left right and jump while charging which makes it extremely difficult to hit them while their shots are hitting me. Blasters, just no. First I need to get within 20 meters of him and even then dispersion gets too big after a few shots and you need more than a few shots to kill a fatty. So you're practically dead by that time.
They should be able to do their job within say 100 meters, not all the way past 300. I've had lots of games on Line Harvest where two proto forges camp up on one of the middle towers and deny the whole map to any vehicle because of their 100% accuracy. I'm on the other side of the map moving at full speed and they still hit me.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
--
"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
128
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Posted - 2014.07.01 14:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
forgegun is the only truely balanced AV weapon system, dont **** it up cause you suck at being a pilot of a vehical!... and there is no dispersal because its a single charged shot!
Minmatar Logibro in training. Rusty needles anyone?
No Mic and no time for "Squeekers"
Nerf scout cloak+shotgun
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
584
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Posted - 2014.07.01 16:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:forgegun is the only truely balanced AV weapon system, dont **** it up cause you suck at being a pilot of a vehical!... and there is no dispersal because its a single charged shot!
That's...that's not what dispersion is about...
Besides, why is the Forge Gun, of all weapons, pin point accurate? Bad pilots get shot down in three shots; good ones spin about like dervishes, and still get shot down if the Forger is good...even out to 200m+, which is the point. FGs are designed as heavy AV - the infantry's counter to HAVs being rolled up and able to positioned to hold them off (like on top of buildings) but they are way too accurate against DSs. Damage is fine: it should really damn hurt if it hits the DS, but it should not be easy to do so beyond 100m. |
Pvt Numnutz
Watchdoge Explosives
1596
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Posted - 2014.07.01 16:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
Too powerful? Nonsense. The only thing that could be changed is adding a lingering trail to forge shot that would make it somewhat easier to track back to the source. |
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Skybladev2
LUX AETERNA INT
RUST415
118
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Posted - 2014.07.01 16:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:Too powerful? Nonsense. The only thing that could be changed is adding a lingering trail to forge shot that would make it somewhat easier to track back to the source.
One should read it as "Too effective agains DSs". They tank/evade forges much harder than tanks.
<[^_^]>
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Nevyn Tazinas
Company of Marcher Lords
Amarr Empire
34
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Posted - 2014.07.01 19:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
So wait, the guy who is designed PURELY TO COUNTER VEHICLES is too good against vehicles?
Just leave your tank/ds behind a wall and run over there with any rifle and chew him up. You are only one guy in your ADS, you should totally be owned by two AV.
The only 'issue' with forges is how easy it is to snipe infantry with one. And that could be solved by decreasing damage vs infantry only. Of course, snap shooting a close range scout with one even if already charged is easier said than done, and you only have 1 second before they shotgun you. (Though I have fired and killed cloaked scouts between me and my target before that I hadn't even seen). Meaning you really only have your side arm most of the time vs infantry and are a walking target when trying to AV since you are concentrating on the vehicle. |
Pvt Numnutz
Watchdoge Explosives
1598
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Posted - 2014.07.01 20:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Skybladev2 wrote:Pvt Numnutz wrote:Too powerful? Nonsense. The only thing that could be changed is adding a lingering trail to forge shot that would make it somewhat easier to track back to the source. One should read it as "Too effective agains DSs". They tank/evade forges much harder than tanks.
Your just rephrasing the same point. No idea what you mean by your second sentence.
Dropship/forge gun balance is good. Both take serious investment and practice to be good and engagements are always really intense. A slip up on either side could mean death which is how it should be at max level. As I said, giving the kahme-hame-ha ball a lingering trail would help dropship pilots actually figure out just where the hell goku is.
The only thing that I find frustrating is when multiple forge guns go to tower camp. The threat of infantry is nonexistent up there and they can lock down 400m from the tower. To counter this I have been working hard with my shock troopers to practice hot drops on towers and the like with little warning and high speeds. If they can catch them by surprise it might work. Though still an insanely risky operation with no other way to fight, other than get an orbital. Don't know if/how it should be fixed but forge gun v dropship is fine. |
One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
2222
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Posted - 2014.07.01 22:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
I don't see the point in this.
I rarely die to a forge gun blast, as I generally have to be standing still.
And in having tried to use one, they are very difficult to use for anything other than AV.
In terms of AV, I don't think having the forge shoot where the recticle is during shaking will make much difference given the size of tanks.
Seems like making a mountain out of a mole hill.
This is how a minja feels
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tander09
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
106
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Posted - 2014.07.02 01:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Skybladev2 wrote:WAAAAHHH WAAAH FORGE GUN IZ OP NERF PL0x CCP WAAAH WAAAH WAAAH MAH DROPSHAWP KEEPS SPINNING WHEN IT IZ HIT BY A FORGE GUN WAAAH WAAAH!!!!!!!!.
This is all I see. I mean, I have no problems with forge guns at all! You just SUCK. S.U.C.K, so quit crying and Adapt, or die
let us transfer our BPOs,stats,gear,ISK and SP to legion pl0x!
Try and steal my BPOs. I dare ya.
AMARRIAN4LYFE
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Skybladev2
LUX AETERNA INT
RUST415
119
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Posted - 2014.07.02 12:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:
The only thing that I find frustrating is when multiple forge guns go to tower camp.
This is the worst case of using sniping forges, they deny all dropships in a map.
I rephrase my idea the third time - I have no complaints about forge DPS, but when you go down to shoot some people, then got hit by a forge, you often can be shot down by this sniping forge even when you fly half a map from him. This is not what I expected to see from AV operator. Swarms locks were reduced from 400m to 150m and that was a right step, time to fix forges without touching their power.
<[^_^]>
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WeapondigitX V7
The Exemplars
Top Men.
156
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Posted - 2014.07.02 13:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
I find that forges vs all vehicles is in a good place.
Tower forges can be solved by getting a MLT drop ship with a shield or armor hardener and fly over the tower. Pilot exits dropship from max height (the max height a dropship can go) and lands on tower with a standard HMG (you can move horizontally while falling, the x axis). If your aim is good, your HMG will likely kill them. Especially if it is only 1 tower forger.
EDIT: Hardeners are a must. They are required. They are critical. If you want to kill infantry use a hardener or 2 hardeners at same time while it/they is/are active. Activate it before the first shot is fired, before you are within range. |
KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1103
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Posted - 2014.07.02 13:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nevyn Tazinas wrote:So wait, the guy who is designed PURELY TO COUNTER VEHICLES is too good against vehicles?
Just leave your tank/ds behind a wall and run over there with any rifle and chew him up. You are only one guy in your ADS, you should totally be owned by two AV.
The only 'issue' with forges is how easy it is to snipe infantry with one. And that could be solved by decreasing damage vs infantry only. Of course, snap shooting a close range scout with one even if already charged is easier said than done, and you only have 1 second before they shotgun you. (Though I have fired and killed cloaked scouts between me and my target before that I hadn't even seen). Meaning you really only have your side arm most of the time vs infantry and are a walking target when trying to AV since you are concentrating on the vehicle.
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:forgegun is the only truely balanced AV weapon system, dont **** it up cause you suck at being a pilot of a vehical!... and there is no dispersal because its a single charged shot!
Guys...
The point was that forge is too snipy snipy VERSUS INFANTRY, footmen, ground troops that is...
:-S
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WeapondigitX V7
The Exemplars
Top Men.
156
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Posted - 2014.07.02 13:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
The forge gun is extremely difficult to use for direct hits against moving infantry. It is more luck than skill at range because of the situation.
Except for stationary targets. Which should not be part of the discussion because anyone can hit a stationary target given enough time.
Hitting a heavy in CQC is slightly hard. But still challenging. Not reliable though. Same with scouts.
Be aware that dispersion would help me and maybe others hit people in CQC with Forge. Even a reticle that actually moved when charging the forge would help me, not hinder me. It seems ironic but that would be my prediction when I remember comparing rail rifle to assault rifle. |
KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1103
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Posted - 2014.07.02 13:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:I don't see the point in this.
I rarely die to a forge gun blast, as I generally have to be standing still.
And in having tried to use one, they are very difficult to use for anything other than AV.
In terms of AV, I don't think having the forge shoot where the recticle is during shaking will make much difference given the size of tanks.
Seems like making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Now that is exactly the point! It wouldn't matter that much at AV,
BUT
it would make a huge difference in forge sniping infantry!
(Only zigzaggin infantry is hard to hit at range. Even normal strafing won't help that much, as long as reticle blinks red it's boom.)
:-S
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