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God Hates Lags
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
1238
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Posted - 2014.06.22 19:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've heard a lot about this and it is honestly the most worrisome part of Legion to me. If all suits are BPO's then it completely kills any notion of meaningful loss. I get that things were uneven in Dust and there should be either be militia only battles or areas or Proto suits should be more specialized rather than just better than their standard counterparts. But honestly losing suits after each battle is the one good thing dust has going for it. Take that away and you might as well just not have a game, no matter how good it is.
Among the many concerns for BPO suits are.
How can there be meaningful betrayal without meaningful loss. Rouge says that he wants to make Legion all about betrayal, which is a worthy goal, but pointless if there's no point to betrayal. Sure you can lose you loot from one game, but then you just blacklist that player and start another round. Without the potential for true meaningful loss Legion will be a match based lobby game forever.
How can you expect a meaningful market with BPO suits? The point of the eventual market was that Eve players are able to continuously supply suits and weapons for Dust/Legion players since Dust/Legion players would be constantly losing them. If there is no losable suits there's really no point to a market.
How does CCP expect to make money from a free to play game with no losable items. Sure it's a minor point for most players, but I fear that lacking the income from suit loss will make CCP gravitate towards more intrusive methods of making isk.
I would like some clarity on how CCP plans to handle all these things if all suits will be BPO in Legion. This is the greatest concern to me about Legion and to my mind is a game ruining feature.
"Look what I destroyed in two days"
Wolfica stole my signature
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Malkai Inos
Any Given Day
1430
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Posted - 2014.06.22 20:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Only the frames themselves are planned to become BPOs. All other types of module, as far as we know anyway, remain destructible and finite.
CCP Z wants to redefine frames from just another piece of gear to more of a "character" representation in the MMO sense except that you'll be able to switch it, provided you have access to more than one suit.
Instead of heaving three types of e.g. gal assault you have one suit per race & class, each of which improves based on your skills instead of buying loads of higher tier ones. You'll still have to fit it like in dust and the idea is that the ISK cost of proto mods, along with gear based MM in some areas/modes is reason enough to have several fitting variations with cheaper mods even though the suit could technically fit more.
The idea has some appeal to those who are unfamiliar in New Eden where a "character" in the common sense hardly exists as your fitting, in-game and skill decisions are all one needs to know about you. It's basically a way for MMO players to experience their familiar MMO like characters and a more MMO like progression where something is actually upgraded as you progress.
I quite frankly cannot identify with this MMO-ification in any way and, as an EVE player, all I see is one glaring inconsistency (who pays for/builds all the suits then?!) that makes my head hurt a little.
But that's just, like, my opinion man. 
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
880
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Posted - 2014.06.23 01:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Basically, suits will be infinite and free; anything fit to it will still be lost and have to replaced.
Dust/Eve transfers
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3704
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Posted - 2014.06.23 08:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Basically, suits will be infinite and free; anything fit to it will still be lost and have to replaced.
Apparently module costs will increase so the net cost of a given suit will remain the same.
So, for example, a fully STD fit suit's worth of mods would be 15k instead of 12k (or whatever, haven't done a STD fit for a while) and a fully proto fit suit's worth would be 200k instead of 150k (or maybe my PRO Assaults are unreasonably expensive).
CCP Rattati Best Dev
AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5
CalLogi, you're next!
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501st Headstrong
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
229
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Posted - 2014.06.23 14:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
So Instead of crying, "No! Not my Last Proto Suit!" I'll instead be crying, "Aw, there goes my last Precision Enhancer?"
I need more intel about this...
From the Clone Wars I came. Here, I am a man among tamed beasts, and a god...among men.- 501st Headstrong.
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Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
366
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Posted - 2014.06.23 14:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
501st Headstrong wrote:So Instead of crying, "No! Not my Last Proto Suit!" I'll instead be crying, "Aw, there goes my last Precision Enhancer?"
I need more intel about this...
There's no such thing as "PROTO suits" in legion |
Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3712
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Posted - 2014.06.23 14:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Roger Cordill wrote:501st Headstrong wrote:So Instead of crying, "No! Not my Last Proto Suit!" I'll instead be crying, "Aw, there goes my last Precision Enhancer?"
I need more intel about this... There's no such thing as "PROTO suits" in legion
Please begin training of Basic Reading Comprehension I.
CCP Rattati Best Dev
AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5
CalLogi, you're next!
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lateris ablon
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2014.06.23 19:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
How will the fittings be acquired? Salvage and the store?
o-0-((~Hack a Salvage Drone and turn them on your enemies, then burn the enchanted forest down with it~))-0-o
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Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
367
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Posted - 2014.06.24 00:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Roger Cordill wrote:501st Headstrong wrote:So Instead of crying, "No! Not my Last Proto Suit!" I'll instead be crying, "Aw, there goes my last Precision Enhancer?"
I need more intel about this... There's no such thing as "PROTO suits" in legion Please begin training of Basic Reading Comprehension I.
"No! Not my Last Proto Suit!"
I already have it at 5, I assume you just started training it, and has it at 2? |
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
11063
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Posted - 2014.06.24 01:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Roger Cordill wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Roger Cordill wrote:501st Headstrong wrote:So Instead of crying, "No! Not my Last Proto Suit!" I'll instead be crying, "Aw, there goes my last Precision Enhancer?"
I need more intel about this... There's no such thing as "PROTO suits" in legion Please begin training of Basic Reading Comprehension I. "No! Not my Last Proto Suit!" I already have it at 5, I assume you just started training it, and has it at 2?
Please consider training Forum Grammar Operation to 1....thank you.
" Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well."
-Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2235
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Posted - 2014.06.24 19:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
Put a thales or balacs on a BPO suit in Dust and tell me there's no meaningful loss when you get killed. The frame itself isn't that significant a portion of the cost to begin with. The goal seems to be for a player to always be able to fulfill a given role once they've trained into it, even if they've lost all their isk and have to use militia gear.
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ZDub 303
Escrow Removal and Acquisition
Dirt Nap Squad.
3061
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Posted - 2014.06.24 20:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
i think a lot of it has to do with the tiercide they plan to do with dropsuits. They idea of purchasing suits makes a lot of sense when you are paying an isk cost for different variations of any one suit (in Dust that would be MLT/STD/ADV/PRO). Without these factors in place, the isk cost would differentiate each suit type. Therefore academy and basic frame suits would be cheaper than racial frame suits. i.e - Basic Assault Dropsuit vs Caldari Assault Dropsuit.
However, the worry comes then, how much of a differential should there really be between dropsuit prices? Make it too large and you are de-incentivizing a large portion of your player base from wanting to progress deeper into the skill tree, as they may not be able to afford the higher price tag on racial dropsuits.
For example... if a Basic Medium were ~5k ISK, a Basic Assault was ~15k ISK and a Caldari Assault was ~45k ISK. But remember, with tiercide all of those suits will be roughly equal in power, you just pay a large price tag for customization and looks.
It may be perceived as 'not worth it' by many players to even bother trying to skill up. Remember, a large motivation to play for many many players is that drive unlock new stuff. If they diminish that feel at all they are hurting their game substantially.
The solution? 'Roughly' normalize the suit cost between variants.
So for example... maybe the progression becomes Basic Medium is ~5000 ISK, a Basic Assault is ~5500 ISK and a Caldari Assault is ~6500 ISK. Okay but if the spread of modules covers from hundreds of isk to hundreds of thousands of isk for STD vs PRO module load outs... then that base price becomes rather meaningless. In fact it becomes more of a chores to continue stocking suits in general and it adds very little to the game play.
I suspect this is the reason why they just want to remove that baseline isk in general. You shift the entire loadout cost to modules that way. In this way they can design manufacturing to be entirely about module creation and not about suit creation. This gives the designers greater freedom to explore a system similar to EVE's salvage and rig system vs the mining and mineral manufacturing system.
I personally believe mining in legion would do that game a serious disservice.
How do vehicles fit into this though? I'm not entirely sure to be honest. BPO vehicles sound like a bad idea though.
Now you say... but this is polar opposite to EVE. And that is entirely correct. However, the 'frame size' in EVE is vastly different to the same idea of frame sizes for dropsuits. A Battleship in EVE is vastly different from a Frigate, and a heavy suit really isnt substantially different from a scout suit in the same manner. ISK cost for hulls makes sense, due to frame size. In Legion, it can certainly make sense as well, but I wouldn't entirely discredit the idea because its 'un-EVE like'. |
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