DUST Search - Shield module changes (SPREADSHEET INSIDE)

Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote:

I really don't like how you guys aren't changing the complex HP mods.

Not giving a speed penalty and PG/CPU increase to complex armor plates means people who don't care about ISK and are just going for the kills/proto stomp will continue to brick tank their scouts and heavies too much without having to skill into fitting optimization to do so.

In my opinion, complex shields could use a buff up to at least 80 HP.

That would give the proto Caldari a little more of an HP edge when compared to Gallente HP. Basically when a Caldari fits everything right, as things are now he has less HP than a Gallente.

I don't think a complex extender buff will negatively affect Cal Scouts. As a matter of fact it will make using those high slots on extenders more attractive than precision, which is exactly what we all need them to be doing so they aren't OP anymore.

If you also keep in mind that shield's resistances to weapons in this game are poor, and that shield based weapons melt through them quicker than armor based ones do to armored suits, the idea of increasing shield HP is a positive change all around.

Also worth a mention is this will make classes that aren't Logi think of extenders as more attractive options than say, a Heavy damage mod. It would also encourage Caldari heavies to use them instead of Energizers.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1469	Posted - 2014.06.06 17:50:00 - [31] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: One specific sidebar on the above, if the Cal is to be heavily pushed into an eWar primary role so much so that it's combat potential is actively reduced then those passive scans will need to have earnings (i.e. WP) attached to them somehow. It's bad practice to attach a suits primary role to something which they can't break even doing (let alone something which they do not get earnings for at all). o7 My CalScout Recon fits generate decent WP returns thru Active Scanners assists. I'm incredibly squishy, but I can see far enough out to avoid insta-gib most of the time. I've little need for cloak (too easily scanned) so I drop it for a 2nd active scanner. With two active scanners, I paint hostiles fairly frequently and am able to augment my oft unreliable shared passives. My role isn't particularly glorious, but it offers a substantial boost to my squad's effectiveness. I am overwatch. I use a Rail, MagSec or K.Tac Sniper Rifle to soften / kill-steal hostiles. I play to my strengths and rely on my squad; I try avoid contact as best I can; when I err I die. Snipers, other CalScouts and GalScouts are my constant counter. If and when I make a mistake, any hostile in my proximity can kill me. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Ghost Kaisar The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 5129	Posted - 2014.06.06 19:10:00 - [32] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: Anything over 30% for shield regulators will put the shield delay under two seconds when stacked. Is that intended? Caldari assault with ~400 shield hp and ~60hp/s recharge and delay under 2 seconds? Combined with mobility, you wouldn't kill one of these unless you grabbed him by the neck and shot him in the face lol Or if you just kill him without giving him time to hide and regen, I think it would be balanced since there is stacking penalties, and the low slots could otherwise have been used to stack 160+ armor (2 plates); I think its a fair HP vs regen speed tradeoff. Also, a Caldari assault can't have 60hp/s regen rate without using 2 energizers; a significant slot sacrifice, even with a prototype Caldari assault you cannot have enough high slots left over after using 2 energizers to get 400 shields. Hey look! Shield tanking working as intended! Headed to Destiny, To Hell with CCP PSN: EVL_Elgost105 RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 330	Posted - 2014.06.06 21:30:00 - [33] - Quote I agree with the the proposed changes to shield tanking. However, as a Gallente armor tanker, it would leave me really disappointed because shield tankers would have all of the versatility in fits if they so chose while I am forced to select between extenders, useless damage mods, and useless melee mods. While I understand that the idea of shields is more "hit-and-run" and armor is a more "brawler" type of fighting (Yes, EVE has options that defy that idea but Dust isn't as developed as EVE so lets stick with the basics), then armor needs the ability to continue to engage his foe even if they should try to run away. Therefore: Sprint mods should be high slots. Ideally there would be a second module in low slots that gives a lower percent boost to speed in general, but I last I checked CCP wasn't adding anything. To support: In EVE active speed mods are mid slots (=Dust high slots) that give a significant bonus to speed but consume your ships energy (capacitor) that makes it more difficult for your ship to run indefinitely. Sprinting is "active" speed tanking vs your base movement speed.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1061	Posted - 2014.06.06 21:32:00 - [34] - Quote +1 for Kage's post, good conservative approach to weaker shield module buffing. About Regulators, All should remember that their bonuses are REDUCTING bonuses, not adding (or rather multiplying). Therefore their modification amount is smaller than those increasing something. This becomes even more significant when stacking those said modules, in many cases reducting modules wouldn't even need stacking penalties as they naturally hamper each other just by themselves. :-S
Sir Dukey SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 989	Posted - 2014.06.06 22:03:00 - [35] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Spreadsheet >>HERE<< [SHIELD EXTENDERS] Problem: Basic shield extenders are not worth using for only 22 more shields. Likewise, enhanced shields give too little HP. 33 more HP basically only protects from 1 AR shot. Complex shield extenders are good and require no changes in my opinion, but it is troubling that they give 100% more HP than enhanced shield extenders; progression is clearly not right. I personally don't bother with shield extenders unless they're complex, and I know others who feel the same way. Solution: Buff basic extenders to 33 Buff enhanced extenders to 44 [SHIELD REGULATORS] Problem: As a low slot module, shield regulators are in direct competition with the much more attractive armor modules. Ideally shield regulators should be more attractive to shield tankers than an armor plate. Basic: 10% Enhanced: 20% Complex: 25% Values are too low for significant effect Difference between enhanced and complex is too low Solution: Basic: 20% Enhanced: 30% Complex: 40% Additional concern: The Caldari scout has unnecessarily and obscenely high shield recharge rate, combined with extremely short shield recharge delays. These have to be reduced, or else my proposed changes will lead to further imbalanced with the Caldari scout. caldari scout shields are balanced for a scout suit, I think this is how shield tanking suits should be with max 5 delay and minimum 30 recharge with no modules.
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1095	Posted - 2014.06.07 02:31:00 - [36] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Spreadsheet >>HERE<< [SHIELD EXTENDERS] Problem: Basic shield extenders are not worth using for only 22 more shields. Likewise, enhanced shields give too little HP. 33 more HP basically only protects from 1 AR shot. Complex shield extenders are good and require no changes in my opinion, but it is troubling that they give 100% more HP than enhanced shield extenders; progression is clearly not right. I personally don't bother with shield extenders unless they're complex, and I know others who feel the same way. Solution: Buff basic extenders to 33 Buff enhanced extenders to 44 [SHIELD REGULATORS] Problem: As a low slot module, shield regulators are in direct competition with the much more attractive armor modules. Ideally shield regulators should be more attractive to shield tankers than an armor plate. Basic: 10% Enhanced: 20% Complex: 25% Values are too low for significant effect Difference between enhanced and complex is too low Solution: Basic: 20% Enhanced: 30% Complex: 40% Additional concern: The Caldari scout has unnecessarily and obscenely high shield recharge rate, combined with extremely short shield recharge delays. These have to be reduced, or else my proposed changes will lead to further imbalanced with the Caldari scout. For shield regulators I would like to have a variant that gives a smaller reduction to shield delay than your suggestion but also that gives a percent increase to base shields. By going for percentage instead of a fixed HP increase this would prevent the Caldari scout from becoming OP and favor more the medium/heavy suit while not making them too good. The suggestion I'm giving would have the same CPU/PG requirements as normal regulator (if it would be different then the bonuses would have to change as well). Basic: 10% reduction to shield recharge delay and 5% increase to base shields. Enhanced: 20% reduction to shield recharge delay and 10% increase to base shields. Complex: 25% reduction to shield recharge delay and 15% increase to base shields. Dropsuit comparison: Cal Scout with Complex Reg variant - 149.5 Shields-> 19.5 HP increase Cal Assault with Complex Reg variant - 241.5 Shields-> 31.5 HP Increase Cal Sentinel with Complex Reg Variant - 603.75 Shields -> 78.75 HP Increase By using these regulators you would have a higher chance to survive a lethal attack that may have killed you quickly. However, it's not the best module to use for prolonged battles since the HP recovered from using the 20/30/40 regulators would outweigh the benefits of starting with higher Shields. Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 88	Posted - 2014.06.07 16:59:00 - [37] - Quote I really like the sounds of this, shields definitely aren't right at the moment, the regulator will be a big help, I'm cal sentinel and it is too squishy, it would go along way to fixing it's issues. my only concern is simply that there should still be some way of logi shield support for when we squad up. (although it could be pointed out that a sentinel could chose armour plates in that low slot, it still isn't quite good enough) overall though +1
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 31	Posted - 2014.06.08 03:59:00 - [38] - Quote I'd like to see shield tanking changed to be more similar to how it works space-side. Recharge rate isn't static, but determined by a recharge time and shield capacity (the two values that modules modify other than resistances). Also shields recharge while under fire, but not at a constant rate. Dividing the shield Capacity by the recharge time gives you the average shield recharge rate, but shields space-side recharge at a variable rate, the lower the shields, the higher the rate, until you reach 25% capacity, then shield recharge rate drops. I don't think this would make shield tankers overpowered, as the recharge rates would still be easily outdone by most standard weaponry, and shield are in a place where they need every bit of help that they can (especially considering there is no remote shield booster infantry side).
Velociraptor antirrhopus Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 154	Posted - 2014.06.08 09:14:00 - [39] - Quote In my opinion, complex shields could use a buff up to at least 80 HP. That would give the proto Caldari a little more of an HP edge when compared to Gallente HP. Basically when a Caldari fits everything right, as things are now he has less HP than a Gallente. I don't think a complex extender buff will negatively affect Cal Scouts. As a matter of fact it will make using those high slots on extenders more attractive than precision, which is exactly what we all need them to be doing so they aren't OP anymore. If you also keep in mind that shield's resistances to weapons in this game are poor, and that shield based weapons melt through them quicker than armor based ones do to armored suits, the idea of increasing shield HP is a positive change all around. Also worth a mention is this will make classes that aren't Logi think of extenders as more attractive options than say, a Heavy damage mod. It would also encourage Caldari heavies to use them instead of Energizers. My thoughts on Hotfix Alpha: First I noticed a scout running from my AR. Then a heavy. Then a COMBAT RIFLE USER. CCP +1
Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 330	Posted - 2014.06.08 13:29:00 - [40] - Quote Velociraptor antirrhopus wrote: I really don't like how you guys aren't changing the complex HP mods. Not giving a speed penalty and PG/CPU increase to complex armor plates means people who don't care about ISK and are just going for the kills/proto stomp will continue to brick tank their scouts and heavies too much without having to skill into fitting optimization to do so. In my opinion, complex shields could use a buff up to at least 80 HP. That would give the proto Caldari a little more of an HP edge when compared to Gallente HP. Basically when a Caldari fits everything right, as things are now he has less HP than a Gallente. I don't think a complex extender buff will negatively affect Cal Scouts. As a matter of fact it will make using those high slots on extenders more attractive than precision, which is exactly what we all need them to be doing so they aren't OP anymore. If you also keep in mind that shield's resistances to weapons in this game are poor, and that shield based weapons melt through them quicker than armor based ones do to armored suits, the idea of increasing shield HP is a positive change all around. Also worth a mention is this will make classes that aren't Logi think of extenders as more attractive options than say, a Heavy damage mod. It would also encourage Caldari heavies to use them instead of Energizers. I would have to disagree with most of what you said. 1) People who don't care about ISK and who want to proto stomp with do so regardless, making complex armor plates an undesirable module simply because proto stompers use it solves nothing as it will just be replaced by the next "broken" thing. 2) Buffing shield extenders to the point where people want to use them over precision mods would mean that you traded the class idea of the Caldari scout from being a detection specialist to being nothing more than another brink (shield) tanked scout. That does not add to the diversity of the game. 3) When everything is fit, the shields are supposed to have less HP than armor fits. The reason being that, except on the heaviest of suits, your defense will full restore itself within 10-15 seconds and even less than that if you aim to do so. While armor fits have no way of restoring their armor unless they, or someone else, equips a module to do so. Depending on the amount of armor to be restored and the rate of restoration, it can take well over a full minute or more to full restore ones defense as an armor tanker. The entire point of being an armor tanker is to have a large buffer of HP at the cost of restoration rate, while shields recharge quicker at the cost of total HP. 4) Shield resistances are not poor, if anything they are better than most based on popular weapons used. The 3 primary anti-shield weapons would be laser weapons, plasma weapons, and the flux grenade. Laser weapons are rarely used at this point, mainly because everybody armor tanks and they are terrible vs armor, and plasma weapons lack any real range to them, plus they are often overshadowed in DPS by other longer range weapons. Then the flux grenade is also only used occasionally, the locus being the preferred for it's ability to kill and being an explosive you get resistances against it. The only exception to all of this is the shotgun, which has such high DPS that it matters very little if you are shield or armor tanked. Vs shields: Explosive -30%, Laser +20%, Plasma +10%, Projectile -5%, Rail -10% Total: -15% Vs armor: Explosive +30%, laser -20%, Plasma -10%, Projectile +10%, Rail +10% Total: +20% So shields have a better profile but just less total HP than armor, which is why it goes down quickly. 5) If you want extenders to give enough HP that it is really meaningful to heavy total HP then you will run into the same problem with shield scouts are we are now with armor ones, lots of HP of suits that are supposed to be low HP. If you wanted extenders to act fairly with both scouts and heavies then they should be percentage based instead of exact numbers, same goes for plates.



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