DUST Search - The locus grenade changes baffle me

CCP Rattati wrote:

Nothing Certain wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

Krixus Flux wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232

As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize.

Chaff grenade? Sure bro. Other than that, I prefer my explosive nades. So that kinda sucks dude.

Keep using the proto, it's unchanged.

But when you increase proto and nerf lower tiers you just exacerbate proto stomping and lopsided matches and THAT is the biggest problem in Dust.

Guys, this are my last comments on this, just for the record

1) basic grenades were too effective, as shown by the overwhelming use of them by the focus segment we use, a much worse percentage than other weapons
2) grenades had a very strong diminishing return in damage per cap(pg+cpu) investment, penalizing if you will, specialization in grenades
3) basic grenades, were simply good enough
4) I am certainly not an advocate of protostomping nor granting an unfair advantage to prototype, however there must be a fair incentive to specialize
5) proto grenades have the same damage, in the early version it had an increase to 650, but that was changed to 600, the old damage

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 516	Posted - 2014.05.26 22:34:00 - [31] - Quote If this change makes it so people stop throwing grenades first, and shooting second, then I will consider this one of the better changes made to date. If you want to continue and 1hko folks, then specialize into Proto nades, otherwise learn to shoot straight.
Michael Arck 4545	Posted - 2014.05.26 22:42:00 - [32] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: If this change makes it so people stop throwing grenades first, and shooting second, then I will consider this one of the better changes made to date. If you want to continue and 1hko folks, then specialize into Proto nades, otherwise learn to shoot straight. What the hell is up with these stupid "rules of engagement" guys like you like to throw around? Seriously? "Don't throw a grenade, shoot first" That is stupid. This is war. Not a gentlemen's game. Archistrategos *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain*
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 516	Posted - 2014.05.27 02:52:00 - [33] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: If this change makes it so people stop throwing grenades first, and shooting second, then I will consider this one of the better changes made to date. If you want to continue and 1hko folks, then specialize into Proto nades, otherwise learn to shoot straight. What the hell is up with these stupid "rules of engagement" guys like you like to throw around? Seriously? "Don't throw a grenade, shoot first" That is stupid. This is war. Not a gentlemen's game. It is war, but if you're dumb enough to let me dump half a clip into you while you reach back to lazily toss a grenade before engaging, then that's your prerogative.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5573	Posted - 2014.05.27 05:28:00 - [34] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Michael Arck wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: If this change makes it so people stop throwing grenades first, and shooting second, then I will consider this one of the better changes made to date. If you want to continue and 1hko folks, then specialize into Proto nades, otherwise learn to shoot straight. What the hell is up with these stupid "rules of engagement" guys like you like to throw around? Seriously? "Don't throw a grenade, shoot first" That is stupid. This is war. Not a gentlemen's game. It is war, but if you're dumb enough to let me dump half a clip into you while you reach back to lazily toss a grenade before engaging, then that's your prerogative. If you're dumping half a clip into someone and they're still managing to throw their grenade after you've done so, maybe YOU need to invest in better gear or learn to shoot straight...
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 516	Posted - 2014.05.27 06:44:00 - [35] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: If you're dumping half a clip into someone and they're still managing to throw their grenade after you've done so, maybe YOU need to invest in better gear or learn to shoot straight... Please tell me o' defender of the 'nade spam, what super OP weapon of choice do you use in armor tanking 514, that allows you to kill everyone with half a clip, besides an HMG? Have you mastered time travel and use the Duvolle TAC, pre-nerf? You sure as hell aren't using a Mass Driver. Reds can toss both grenades before you get your third shot off. What I am saying is that by the time you press L2 and the animation finishes, you've given up any advantage you might have had in a 1v1.
Eko Sol Strange Playings 386	Posted - 2014.05.27 07:08:00 - [36] - Quote I, for one, actually like the change. I think the nerf is TOO strong though. I think 350, 450, 600 would have been more valid. The issue is the new player who occasionally got a nade kill is now NEVER getting a nade kill. To be honest, I would just get rid of basic to begin with. Have multiple variants of ADV and PROTO (i.e. less radius, more damage, etc) and MLT. I do find myself fitting a Locus or M1 instead of a core just to save the PG/CPU but now that the nade would have such little impact in competitive play, I can't simply do that anymore. I might have to consider rolling with flux instead of the basic or ADV. Again, i like it but the nerf is too strong. It is really going to hurt new players such as my brother. PSN is "Ekopalm" I play D3, Child of Light, and solo games Also, Proto Trolling until I'm broke...
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5574	Posted - 2014.05.27 07:54:00 - [37] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: If you're dumping half a clip into someone and they're still managing to throw their grenade after you've done so, maybe YOU need to invest in better gear or learn to shoot straight... Please tell me o' defender of the 'nade spam, what super OP weapon of choice do you use in armor tanking 514, that allows you to kill everyone with half a clip, besides an HMG? Have you mastered time travel and use the Duvolle TAC, pre-nerf? You sure as hell aren't using a Mass Driver. Reds can toss both grenades before you get your third shot off. What I am saying is that by the time you press L2 and the animation finishes, you've given up any advantage you might have had in a 1v1. I'm not defending nade spam. I'm defending the abilities of Sniper Rifles, Combat Rifles, Shotguns, Rail Rifles and pretty much every weapon in the game because most of them can kill in less than half a clip if you're aiming for the head (and some of which can do it without headshots). What I'm saying is that if you're throwing a grenade at someone who's already aware of your position, then yeah, that's kind of stupid except as a finisher when you just emptied your clip (and hopefully already killed somoene and are using the quick grenade throw to give yourself breathing room against another opponent). If you're opening on an UNAWARE enemy with a grenade though, that gives you a chance at a free kill, and a good head start as a worst-case scenario. I think the decision to change grenades is a terrible one, not because they shouldn't have any changes, but because the changes themselves are terrible.
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2014.05.27 08:13:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. so to specialize you have to get to proto... which means that proto stompers just get another advantage over new players. but I take it this is part of the plan to discourage new players... in that case, good job!
Yoma Carrim Last VenDetta. 556	Posted - 2014.05.27 11:28:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. I have a question why did you reduce the Damage on Contact Grenades? Oh Heck
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4268	Posted - 2014.05.27 11:47:00 - [40] - Quote Yoma Carrim wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. I have a question why did you reduce the Damage on Contact Grenades? Spite.

Yoma Carrim Last VenDetta. 556	Posted - 2014.05.27 11:58:00 - [41] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Yoma Carrim wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. I have a question why did you reduce the Damage on Contact Grenades? Spite. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Weeps in a corner rocking Thunker Grenade Oh Heck
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2654	Posted - 2014.05.27 13:05:00 - [42] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: This is the only change that wasn't communicated well and it's the only change in hotfix alpha that I don't like. Nerf new players, buff veterans? When has anyone said that? I expect this change to be undone in hotfix beta very quickly. I think nerfing new players is a great idea. I wouldn't be opposed to banning them outright if they prove continually useless. And there you have it folks, Kuronaga, the bitter-vet that comes to the forums but doesn't play. He get's the vision Hotfix Alpha is applying. Why can't you guys just understand this? Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1774	Posted - 2014.05.27 13:15:00 - [43] - Quote If CPP wants only proto to be effective, then just make ALL proto weapons more than twice as damaging as standard. Standard plasma rifle: 25 damage per shot; proto plasma rifle: 65 damage per shot. No CCP. Buff standard grenades to 550 and keep proto at 650 if you want to do so so much. The increased damage output of proto should be marginal. There is nothing marginal about the changes to grenades. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
The Dieing Life Band of The Hawkx Lokun Listamenn 2	Posted - 2014.05.27 13:19:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Krixus Flux wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. Chaff grenade? Sure bro. Other than that, I prefer my explosive nades. So that kinda sucks dude. Keep using the proto, it's unchanged. Make it where nades are better nades than remotes are and you might have people skill them. I get more kills with remotes useing them as nades are supposed to be used there much more efficient for the job.basic remotes beats proto nades hands down at the same job. I am your scan error Wait.... What scans?
The Dieing Life Band of The Hawkx Lokun Listamenn 2	Posted - 2014.05.27 13:23:00 - [45] - Quote This direction is guaranteeing no new players to the game btw. Shut it down bring me legion I am your scan error Wait.... What scans?

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1889	Posted - 2014.05.27 16:16:00 - [46] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Krixus Flux wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. Chaff grenade? Sure bro. Other than that, I prefer my explosive nades. So that kinda sucks dude. Keep using the proto, it's unchanged. But when you increase proto and nerf lower tiers you just exacerbate proto stomping and lopsided matches and THAT is the biggest problem in Dust. Guys, this are my last comments on this, just for the record 1) basic grenades were too effective, as shown by the overwhelming use of them by the focus segment we use, a much worse percentage than other weapons 2) grenades had a very strong diminishing return in damage per cap(pg+cpu) investment, penalizing if you will, specialization in grenades 3) basic grenades, were simply good enough 4) I am certainly not an advocate of protostomping nor granting an unfair advantage to prototype, however there must be a fair incentive to specialize 5) proto grenades have the same damage, in the early version it had an increase to 650, but that was changed to 600, the old damage "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Awesome Pantaloons Lokapalas. 510	Posted - 2014.05.27 16:21:00 - [47] - Quote Do whatever you want with the damage. Rattata, bro, you're not going to change my preference. When I nearly kill some bastard and he takes to cover or retreats, its my faithful locus that finishes him. I use AVs and Fluxes on suits that benefit from them the most role-wise, but for the most part I overwhelmingly use locus, and no amount of changes will stop that. "The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited." -The Code of Demeanor
The Dieing Life Band of The Hawkx Lokun Listamenn 4	Posted - 2014.05.27 16:41:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Krixus Flux wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. Chaff grenade? Sure bro. Other than that, I prefer my explosive nades. So that kinda sucks dude. Keep using the proto, it's unchanged. But when you increase proto and nerf lower tiers you just exacerbate proto stomping and lopsided matches and THAT is the biggest problem in Dust. Guys, this are my last comments on this, just for the record 1) basic grenades were too effective, as shown by the overwhelming use of them by the focus segment we use, a much worse percentage than other weapons 2) grenades had a very strong diminishing return in damage per cap(pg+cpu) investment, penalizing if you will, specialization in grenades 3) basic grenades, were simply good enough 4) I am certainly not an advocate of protostomping nor granting an unfair advantage to prototype, however there must be a fair incentive to specialize 5) proto grenades have the same damage, in the early version it had an increase to 650, but that was changed to 600, the old damage I hope when legion comes out you sink with the dust ship every post you have is arrogant o and by the way a nade is not a conventional weapon so compareing it to other weapons is redundant as ive said before remotes are much better nades than nades. Please nerf them bet i can still kill you with them. Can i get a "SCRUB" I am your scan error Wait.... What scans?
The Dieing Life Band of The Hawkx Lokun Listamenn 4	Posted - 2014.05.27 16:52:00 - [49] - Quote Lol "focus segment" your a true business man are you not ccp sent in this guy to milk you all dry. I am your scan error Wait.... What scans?
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 545	Posted - 2014.05.27 16:57:00 - [50] - Quote Here's a thought: If grenades are a specialization then the fitting costs should reflect the choices being made by specializing. What I'm going is that there should be an actual cognitive process of asking yourself "Do I really want to equip grenades or not?". A Caldari Railrifle user may come to the conclusion that he doesn't need grenades because he always engages at large distances. He would then proceed to use those fitting resources to improve his shields. A Gallente Assault may decide that he does need to make sacrifices in his fitting elsewhere so he can equip grenades which will help him soften up sentinels he otherwise wouldn't be able to engage due to his main rifle's damage profile. If that's the concept we're aiming at with the grenade changes I would suggest increasing the fitting requirements for basic grenades while also making them more powerful.

Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 150	Posted - 2014.05.27 17:12:00 - [51] - Quote 1) basic grenades were too effective, as shown by the overwhelming use of them by the focus segment we use, a much worse percentage than other weapons - Of course the locus grenade will be used more often. AV and Flux grenades are situational, whereas locus are more general. This is like saying we need to nerf the AR/CR/RR because more people use it than the SL or MD. of course they do because they are general anit-infantry weapons while the other are situational so they only get used when the situation fits. 2) grenades had a very strong diminishing return in damage per cap(pg+cpu) investment, penalizing if you will, specialization in grenades - So do most light weapons and many modules and that is a good thing because it reduces proto stomping. I never complain about a proto weapon being used in a pub match; only proto suits because the extra slots (along with extra PG/CPU) make the tier progression too steep. 3) basic grenades, were simply good enough - basic weapons and armor plates are frequently good enough, so why don't you reward people 'for specializing' in them? Like in my earlier post, why not make the CR basic=15, adv=17, proto=27? 4) I am certainly not an advocate of protostomping nor granting an unfair advantage to prototype, however there must be a fair incentive to specialize - well, you might not be a verbal advocate of protostomping, but your actions are promoting it. Words are meaningless if your actions contradict. - the answer to fair incentive (as others have posted) is to reduce the sp and/or increase the specing advantage. for the former, reload speed used to be x5 which was way too high for such a small increase to a skill that is not that important for dual weapon fits; the current x3 made specing into it worthwhile. For the latter, CPU reduction is not worth specing to lvl 5. If you made it dmg and/or radius, that might encourage me to spec further. 5) proto grenades have the same damage, in the early version it had an increase to 650, but that was changed to 600, the old damage - that's not the problem. You could have increased to 650 and left the basic at their current levels and I would not have complained. If you had made the progression more leveled and less pronounced (e.g. 300/450/600), I would have been disappointed but not complained. In the end, if this is indicative of how balancing will be handled (i.e. balancing things that aren't broken before balancing things that are, and breaking what was not broken in the process), then I am questioning my decision to play out this game until people move to Legion and I move to something else available on my console.
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 151	Posted - 2014.05.27 17:19:00 - [52] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Here's a thought: If grenades are a specialization then the fitting costs should reflect the choices being made by specializing. What I'm going is that there should be an actual cognitive process of asking yourself "Do I really want to equip grenades or not?". A Caldari Railrifle user may come to the conclusion that he doesn't need grenades because he always engages at large distances. He would then proceed to use those fitting resources to improve his shields. A Gallente Assault may decide that he does need to make sacrifices in his fitting elsewhere so he can equip grenades which will help him soften up sentinels he otherwise wouldn't be able to engage due to his main rifle's damage profile. If that's the concept we're aiming at with the grenade changes I would suggest increasing the fitting requirements for basic grenades while also making them more powerful. Think of changes that would make you people go "Show me your best grenadier fitting". This change certainly isn't one of them. I like the idea of making changes that promote a grenadier fit. I think the important thing would be to have a way to increase grenade count. Off the top of my head, maybe a low/high module that adds 1 more grenade and increases the range/dmg slightly (with only the latter increasing with each lvl increase). that could be a module that is only available if you spec into another skill beyond grenades (like a grenade proficiency). If that could only be speced into if you had lvl 5 in gernades, it would encourage specialization. Anyway, totally off the top of my head so not thought out at all.
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 176	Posted - 2014.05.27 17:41:00 - [53] - Quote Well, looks like I'm too late to the discussion, CCP R. gave his last word. Before I found this thread I created a thread in FEEDBACK forum explaining my opinion. Too long for a simple repost here. AKA - StarVenger
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 176	Posted - 2014.05.27 18:25:00 - [54] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 4) I am certainly not an advocate of protostomping nor granting an unfair advantage to prototype, however there must be a fair incentive to specialize Answer: Increase proto damage so it may come close to competing with the RE. @ HotfixAlpha Grenades- Forget grenades I'm going RE!!!! AKA - StarVenger
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 774	Posted - 2014.05.27 18:58:00 - [55] - Quote CCP here is a thought, why not make the skills give the grenade its power....? What I mean is (And these are random numbers by the way just to illustrate) Grenade Type -- -- -- -- -- \| Grenade Damage and Radius \| -- -- -- -- -- Skill level bonus Locus Grenade \|Base Dmg 400, Base Radius 4m \| Level 1 in 'Grenades' = +10% Dmg +10% Blast Radius Locus Grenade \|Base Dmg 400, Base Radius 4m \| Level 3 in 'Grenades' = +30% Dmg +30% Blast Radius Locus Grenade \|Base Dmg 400, Base Radius 4m \| Level 5 in 'Grenades' = +50% Dmg +50% Blast Radius And then do similar for the AV and Flux grenades etc.... Its a little different, I know.
The Dieing Life Band of The Hawkx Lokun Listamenn 4	Posted - 2014.05.27 19:19:00 - [56] - Quote ANON Cerberus wrote: CCP here is a thought, why not make the skills give the grenade its power....? What I mean is (And these are random numbers by the way just to illustrate) Grenade Type -- -- -- -- -- \| Grenade Damage and Radius \| -- -- -- -- -- Skill level bonus Locus Grenade \|Base Dmg 400, Base Radius 4m \| Level 1 in 'Grenades' = +10% Dmg +10% Blast Radius Locus Grenade \|Base Dmg 400, Base Radius 4m \| Level 3 in 'Grenades' = +30% Dmg +30% Blast Radius Locus Grenade \|Base Dmg 400, Base Radius 4m \| Level 5 in 'Grenades' = +50% Dmg +50% Blast Radius And then do similar for the AV and Flux grenades etc.... Its a little different, I know. I like this idea makes sence but alas not money. I am your scan error Wait.... What scans?
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 153	Posted - 2014.05.28 01:48:00 - [57] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Well, looks like I'm too late to the discussion, CCP R. gave his last word. Before I found this thread I created a thread in FEEDBACK forum explaining my opinion. Too long for a simple repost here. Yes, good to know our feedback is being listened to.


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