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The locus grenade changes baffle me

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 141	Posted - 2014.05.26 03:40:00 - [1] - Quote CCP: what was the rationale for the changes to the locus grenades? I can't make sense of them. You are planning on making damage almost double between advanced and prototype and nerfing basic grenades by around 40%.
deezy dabest Warpoint Sharx 564	Posted - 2014.05.26 04:00:00 - [2] - Quote Thang Bausch wrote: CCP: what was the rationale for the changes to the locus grenades? I can't make sense of them. You are planning on making damage almost double between advanced and prototype and nerfing basic grenades by around 40%. I guess they feel like flux grenades are not used enough so they need to stop all use of locus grenades. Laser focused in a room full of mirrors. Everything you ever wanted coming SoonGäó just keep buying boosters.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1553	Posted - 2014.05.26 04:25:00 - [3] - Quote I'm thinking it's to encourage people to make room on their fittings for higher level grenades (thereby reducing EHP and/or DPS) by making the higher level grenades far more appealing than the basic ones. PSN ID: AlbelNox2569 MAG Vet ~ Raven R.I.P.~ Dust, R.I.P.~ MAG
Tectonic Fusion 1675	Posted - 2014.05.26 04:57:00 - [4] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: I'm thinking it's to encourage people to make room on their fittings for higher level grenades (thereby reducing EHP and/or DPS) by making the higher level grenades far more appealing than the basic ones. But still, isn't 100 damage for each level enough? They should change it back and make the SP requirements the same as all the other weapons, like REs and ARs.
Michael Arck 4536	Posted - 2014.05.26 05:01:00 - [5] - Quote I'm not speaking for myself but the GD community (not all) loathes grenade spam. CCP has even considered removing grenade restock from nanohives. God bless the community of GD. Always hating what kills them in a FPS. Archistrategos *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain*
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1914	Posted - 2014.05.26 08:56:00 - [6] - Quote I can kind of see why. Basic Locus grenades are pretty much all you need. By lowering the damage and buffing the higher level variants, it gives people a reason to fit them. With all the changes being made, including Plates being more difficult to fit, I am guessing that CCP wants to see more hard choices in dropsuits like there is for vehicles. Instead of limiting slots, they are making it harder to fit things you want to do. "Want to be the super scan Scout? Gotta have the extenders and precision enhancers." "Want to be the super stealth Scout? Gotta use lots of profile dampeners." "Want to actually have dangerous grenades? Gotta use higher level grenades." Don't know how to feel but I almost think that this is a beta test for how it will work in Legion. Probably not as slots and suits will be different but I have never done the tinfoil hat thing before so I guess it is my turn. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1833	Posted - 2014.05.26 09:10:00 - [7] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Krixus Flux Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 326	Posted - 2014.05.26 09:21:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. Chaff grenade? Sure bro. Other than that, I prefer my explosive nades. So that kinda sucks dude. Saying what's on people's minds

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 1836	Posted - 2014.05.26 10:24:00 - [9] - Quote Krixus Flux wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. Chaff grenade? Sure bro. Other than that, I prefer my explosive nades. So that kinda sucks dude. Keep using the proto, it's unchanged. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4260	Posted - 2014.05.26 11:01:00 - [10] - Quote You... increased the damage on proto. When I cook that thing and it explodes over somebody's head, it's doing 1300 damage. How is this discouraging me from grenade spam exactly?

Miokai Zahou The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 270	Posted - 2014.05.26 11:24:00 - [11] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: You... increased the damage on proto. When I cook that thing and it explodes over somebody's head, it's doing 1300 damage. How is this discouraging me from grenade spam exactly? They ....what!? Holy sh... ok maybe i should spec into nades as well just for the lolz.... Noob isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 142	Posted - 2014.05.26 12:55:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. There is no need to encourage the use of other grenades. Flux grenades are already very widely used and AV grenades will be used again after you increase the damage to the point where 2 grenades can take out most LAVs. Nerfing basic and advanced grenades will only encourage 2 things: the effectiveness of proto stomping (can only afford basic grenades? too bad noob because that squad of 6 guys with 30+ mill sp and proto suits is going to clean you up even more than before now that only they can have uber grenades) and fits with no grenades. The current +100 HP and blast radius increase for each is already good incentive to fit better grenade modules. I personally run Adv locus grenades on all my Adv Min Logi fits (min commando suits sadly and very oddly don't have grenade slots and that is the only other suit I run regularly) because 100 extra dmg and a wider radius is worth the extra fitting cost. I don't run proto because I don't run proto weapons on any of my logi fits because the suit is primarily about equipment and staying alive so I can keep others alive. The tier progression is unlike almost all the other weapons (the SL is the one light weapon I can think of that deviates from this) and many of modules (armor plates are a great example) where the basic level gives a strong showing and then the adv and proto add more modestly to the base stat(s). The tier progression you are proposing for grenades is similar to shield extenders where the basic and adv are almost useless, and then there is a huge jump to the proto, which results in just about everyone only using shield extenders if they can fit complex ones. To put this in perspective, why don't you tier weapons to encourage specialization? To take one weapon as example, CRs can start at 15 HP dmg, with 17 HP at Adv and 24 HP at Proto. Sound stupid? Exactly. Finally, excluding AV grenades, grenades aren't significantly unbalanced. There are so many things that desperately need rebalancing (e.g. SL effectiveness, race car tanks with godlike armor repairing, cloakless scouts being the new assault suit) and you are breaking something that wasn't really broken?!?
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 142	Posted - 2014.05.26 12:58:00 - [13] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: You... increased the damage on proto. When I cook that thing and it explodes over somebody's head, it's doing 1300 damage. How is this discouraging me from grenade spam exactly? What did discourage grenade spam was reducing the number carried to 2. If they increase the nanohive cost, that would go further. But, I don't understand why grenade spam is considered a problem. I die to grenades very rarely compared to hand held weapons or tank/DS guns.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 819	Posted - 2014.05.26 13:28:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. Rattati, I disagree that this will do what you expect it to, and I'll try to show my reasoning. First, you're attempting to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, but it's the tail wagging the dog, from a game design perspective. Players use grenades to fill roles. Flux grenades are for anti-equipment spam, as a prep move before an assault, and to take out shield tanked suits (heavies, mostly). Oh, and to drop the shields of tanks after you planted remotes. AV grenades are for attempting to kill heavies in LAVs before they jump out and murder you, attempting to suppress dropships piloted by bads, and for fending off tanks for the 15 seconds it takes to regen the damage. Flux grenades are for finishing off suits after you've winged them, or in enclosed spaces if you have friends to spam with you, or to cook against heavies, or basically any anti-infantry role because you can actually kill people with them (this is important for logi suits that don't have sidearms as finishers) If you want locus grenades to be used more, then you need to discover why players prefer the other types and think about that, rather than blindly buff locus grenades until they're the optimal choice in so many situations that they break out of their role by pure OPness. So, if fluxes get used more than you want, it's probably because they are useful in more roles, especially in an AV and anti-equipment role. Perhaps looking at it from a role-based perspective will make other changes obvious (e.g. maybe the AV grenade buff will reduce the reliance on fluxes, or maybe people would use locus grenades to take out equipment if they worked as well as fluxes) Secondly, you're pushing the 'reason to specialise' bonus onto the grenades themselves rather than having a skill that's applicable to all grenade types. Frankly, this goes against Dust's design philosophy, which is "defensive items get better in large steps as you go up tiers, offensive items go up in small steps". Compare the boost that any module gets as it goes from std to adv to pro, vs the tiny 5% and 10% boosts for weapons. It's for a few good reasons; here's a few 1. It's a lot easier for a squad to apply multiple offensive weapons on a single enemy, but that enemy only has their own defensive modules to help them. Having defensive modules scale faster tries to ameliorate this 'n+1' effect, as does having diminishing returns for weapons 2. Psychologically, players do not like dying to expensive weapons that they see in their kill screen, but never get told about the prototype modules on their suit So, you have to ask yourself from a game design perspective, what are you hoping to encourage here, and how does it fit into the game? If you want people to specialise in the skill (which you'll note has prohibitive SP rank) then make each level of the skill do something awesome, like the Mass Driver skill does. I guarantee a lot of people will skill to V because it will be applicable for so, so many of their fits (unlike a small CPU bonus that doesn't affect much unless you're running core locus) If you want people to run more prototype grenades, then you'll probably be pleased with the results, but I question whether it is the correct approach to take. My suggestion would be to lower the damage gap between standard and pro grenades, rather than increase it, and look to other ways to balance them (blast radius is one thing, delay before detonation is another) Thirdly, I haven't done the numbers but I suspect that AV grenades may still not be good enough, because of the nature of their usage. AV grenades aren't thrown singly like other grenades; you use them much more rarely, but when you need them, you throw all of them at once as fast as you can. And more often than not, you find that two grenades isn't enough to kill anything. So, in this regard, buffing grenade alpha may work, but it might be better to let players carry three of them instead, which improves the total amount of damage that they can output by a minimum 50%, hopefully high enough to actually kill stuff. forthly, thanks for asking. Dust/Eve transfers
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3146	Posted - 2014.05.26 13:30:00 - [15] - Quote lol nice heavys take then allmost no damage at all from grenades. 1 locus grenade will do like 150HP damage vs a caldari sentinel. Just you wait till every 1 grabs remote explosives instead of grenades.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 759	Posted - 2014.05.26 13:36:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Krixus Flux wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. Chaff grenade? Sure bro. Other than that, I prefer my explosive nades. So that kinda sucks dude. Keep using the proto, it's unchanged. But when you increase proto and nerf lower tiers you just exacerbate proto stomping and lopsided matches and THAT is the biggest problem in Dust. Because, that's why.
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1772	Posted - 2014.05.26 13:59:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Krixus Flux wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. Chaff grenade? Sure bro. Other than that, I prefer my explosive nades. So that kinda sucks dude. Keep using the proto, it's unchanged. That's extremely stupid. Only those that have the ISK to spam proto will have a huge advantage over those that can't afford proto. Since when is ISK supposed to win you battles? Keep the damage if you want but make them cheaper so everyone can afford proto, but it would still take SP investment and specialization to get proto. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
lithkul devant Legions of Infinite Dominion Zero-Day 232	Posted - 2014.05.26 14:05:00 - [18] - Quote Actually what he's doing is promoting the use of remote explosives, cause people will use these now instead to compensate the loss for damage potential within locus gernades. I know I will, since the remote explosive does high damage, people can barely see it if they can see it, and I can just place them around to suit my needs. I'll just change my gernade type to either flux or AV depending on which is better now.
Mauren NOON The Exemplars Top Men. 311	Posted - 2014.05.26 14:29:00 - [19] - Quote Personally, I hate grenades. I think grenades are cowardly. 1 reason why I'm a commando....Nade spam aggravates me to no end. I wouldn't be mad if locus grenades were removed all together Scr and commando enthusiast. A commando is not just a suit, but a way of life... "The only thing to fear is fear itself"
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4263	Posted - 2014.05.26 14:58:00 - [20] - Quote Harpyja wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Krixus Flux wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. Chaff grenade? Sure bro. Other than that, I prefer my explosive nades. So that kinda sucks dude. Keep using the proto, it's unchanged. That's extremely stupid. Only those that have the ISK to spam proto will have a huge advantage over those that can't afford proto. Since when is ISK supposed to win you battles? Since always. Welcome to New Eden. If it didn't give you an advantage it wouldn't be worth buying. If you don't like the idea that people with money will always have an advantage over you in life I recommend joining your unwashed hippy brethren in their terrible occupy wallstreet protests. It'll have zero effect on New Eden, but at least we won't have to listen to it.

Leeroy Gannarsein Legio DXIV 321	Posted - 2014.05.26 15:03:00 - [21] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Harpyja wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Krixus Flux wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. Chaff grenade? Sure bro. Other than that, I prefer my explosive nades. So that kinda sucks dude. Keep using the proto, it's unchanged. That's extremely stupid. Only those that have the ISK to spam proto will have a huge advantage over those that can't afford proto. Since when is ISK supposed to win you battles? Since always. Welcome to New Eden. If it didn't give you an advantage it wouldn't be worth buying. If you don't like the idea that people with money will always have an advantage over you in life I recommend joining your unwashed hippy brethren in their terrible occupy wallstreet protests. It'll have zero effect on New Eden, but at least we won't have to listen to it. It's only 14k anyway. MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 538	Posted - 2014.05.26 16:05:00 - [22] - Quote This is the only change that wasn't communicated well and it's the only change in hotfix alpha that I don't like. Nerf new players, buff veterans? When has anyone said that? I expect this change to be undone in hotfix beta very quickly.
Thang Bausch Pierrot Le Fou Industries 143	Posted - 2014.05.26 16:35:00 - [23] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: [quote=CCP Rattati] Flux grenades are for finishing off suits after you've winged them, or in enclosed spaces if you have friends to spam with you, or to cook against heavies, or basically any anti-infantry role because you can actually kill people with them (this is important for logi suits that don't have sidearms as finishers) Yeup, that's another reason why I run adv grenades but basic light weapons on my adv logi suit: My grenades are my secondary. I have lost count of the number of times that a well cooked grenade has saved me a clone.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4266	Posted - 2014.05.26 20:33:00 - [24] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: This is the only change that wasn't communicated well and it's the only change in hotfix alpha that I don't like. Nerf new players, buff veterans? When has anyone said that? I expect this change to be undone in hotfix beta very quickly. I think nerfing new players is a great idea. I wouldn't be opposed to banning them outright if they prove continually useless.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. General Tso's Alliance 1935	Posted - 2014.05.26 21:15:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Krixus Flux wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. Chaff grenade? Sure bro. Other than that, I prefer my explosive nades. So that kinda sucks dude. Keep using the proto, it's unchanged. Uhhh You Turned Core Locus Grenades Into One Hit Kill Platforms. Welcome to DUST, Spend 3-4 months Training your character and setting up your suit, Spawn.. One shotted by random Grenade. Seriously what is the point of health point values on suits or a Persistent MMO Shooter if Deaths from grenades have no difference from Battlefield's... Where your supposed to be based off a Soldier of today without an advanced Armor suit . Pointing to random things to change without any Game concept behind it.... HAS BEEN DONE IN DUST 514. Can we not learn from the Mstakes made here once?
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 938	Posted - 2014.05.26 21:27:00 - [26] - Quote CCP feels that not enough people are protostomping so this is to encourage greater use of protogear because everything else will be rendered useless at some point. Public Relations - tick tick BOOM. PSN: CallOfTheDark
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3147	Posted - 2014.05.26 21:49:00 - [27] - Quote Well this deffo sounds stupid. Buff proto and nerf advanced and standard. Like if the core locus wasnt bad enough allready.
D legendary hero WarRavens Final Resolution. 1896	Posted - 2014.05.26 22:17:00 - [28] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175239#post2175239 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2175232#post2175232 As a few have responded, it's to encourage the use of other grenades than locus, as well as provide a reason to specialize. why cant i Have basic contact grenades. That do 200 damage. Why arent those at basic level? Sou o Defendeiro dos derrubados_Pronto saberá justiça
Michael Arck 4545	Posted - 2014.05.26 22:21:00 - [29] - Quote Well, I will continue using my locus. It's part of my offensive strategy. Flux grenades are not my thing. So, I'm dealing with it. Archistrategos *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain*
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 1676	Posted - 2014.05.26 22:32:00 - [30] - Quote Hahaha haven't you realized CCP is clueless OP? Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.



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