DUST Search - Credit for contributing to a kill

S Park Finner wrote:

ZDub 303 wrote:

...
Second is a coding issue... When you have multiple sources hitting a target and that target is receiving self reps and remote reps you can imagine how quickly trying to calculate WP contribution can get messy. If you assume its still only a maximum of 60 WP per kill, that means any point of rep would have to cancel out the damage contribution from another player. This means we need a table with the damage contribution of every single bullet with its own time index and player ID and a total sum for each player's contribution and then have one of these tables updating every 15-20(ish) microseconds for all players on the field. I understand PCs can do a lot but that sounds like a bit of strain and a lot of calculations... I'm not a programmer so maybe its not that bad but something tells me there is a reason why that doesn't happen in more games?

FWIW, an algorithm for this is well known. But the point of having the ability to do this server side is a good one. We can't answer that for the Legion servers.

For the masochists among us, an example.

Who fired and how much damage is done to a target is already known -- it's necessary to recording the damage to the target and giving credit for the kill if it happens.
How much damage is healed is already known -- it's necessary for repairing the target.
Each time damage is done the damage dealer's ID and amount of damage is pushed into a list associated with the target.
Each time the target is healed, the amount is subtracted from the contribution of the oldest damage dealer on the list.
When the contribution goes to zero, the damage dealer is removed from the list and excess damage is removed from the next damage dealer's contribution.
If the target is killed the list is used to parcel out credit for the kill.
If the target is fully healed all the damage dealers on the list have been removed -- it is reset.

So there's a lot of work. But it's not impossible and smart folks can come up with better solutions than the simple one above.

Only CCP can decide if this makes sense for their vision of game play and within the processing budget they have for the servers when everything falls out. Since this is server-side it isn't a Legion / DUST 514 issue if I understand their set-up correctly. The whole question of how possible it is will depend on how many hamsters CCP hitch up to the game when (if?) it comes out.

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S Park Finner DUST University Ivy League 384	Posted - 2014.05.21 13:30:00 - [1] - Quote I'd like to see war points (or whatever Legion will use) credited in proportion to a players contribution to the kill. In a proportional system you get WP in proportion to the amount of damage you do if the target doesn't fully heal before they die. If it ultimately takes 1000 HP to kill something and you contributed 250 of them then you should get 25% of the credit. Pluses: Players get credit for what they do Collaboration is supported Minuses: Could be complicated for players to understand Could be expensive to implement on a server-side system It is but to keep the nerves at strain, to dry one's eyes and laugh at a fall, and baffled, get up and begin again.
steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3103	Posted - 2014.05.21 14:19:00 - [2] - Quote I personaly want to move away from KD and warpoints its a hangover from the quake days. I would much rather have isk damage caused and isk earned. And instead each player has a player card when you kill him or win the match you get his card with his fitting on it, these cards could be traded with other players and be used as a method of market reaserch :-P. Idea inspired by kill mails :-P "i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3430	Posted - 2014.05.21 14:49:00 - [3] - Quote What I want is for Kills and Deaths to only be counted if the clone is lost. The person who drops the clone gets credit for GÇ£IncapacitationGÇ¥ and gets 25 WP. If the Cone bleeds out, or is destroyed the person who Incapacitated the clone gets another 25 WP and credit for a kill. Or you could get a WP for every 2% damage done to a clone when that clone becomes incapacitated. The person who incapacitated it gets a 5 WP bonus, and if the clone dies the person who incapacitated it gets another 5 WP and credit for the kill. This would mean that if you get picked up 3 times in a row and get picked off each time by a Sniper, it will only register as a single death. It would completely change our relationship with Medics. To steadyhand, I too want ISK value lost, and ISK efficiancy listed at end of match and on the leader boards. Kills are still important though. EVE lists both. The more stats you have, the more accurate the story they tell. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
S Park Finner DUST University Ivy League 384	Posted - 2014.05.21 17:17:00 - [4] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: I personaly want to move away from KD and warpoints its a hangover from the quake days. I would much rather have isk damage caused and isk earned. And instead each player has a player card when you kill him or win the match you get his card with his fitting on it, these cards could be traded with other players and be used as a method of market reaserch :-P. Idea inspired by kill mails :-P How would you feel about a game mode where the win condition was "X ISK of equipment lost" rather than (or along side) clones retired and objectives taken? It is but to keep the nerves at strain, to dry one's eyes and laugh at a fall, and baffled, get up and begin again.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1879	Posted - 2014.05.21 20:52:00 - [5] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: What I want is for Kills and Deaths to only be counted if the clone is lost. The person who drops the clone gets credit for GÇ£IncapacitationGÇ¥ and gets 25 WP. If the Cone bleeds out, or is destroyed the person who Incapacitated the clone gets another 25 WP and credit for a kill. The problem is that Nanites not only become a way to save your friend's ISK, get them back on the battlefield faster, and to prevent a clone loss but also a way to deny the other side some points. Denial is a pain. I don't think I am a fan of the Warpoint or KDA thing, at least how it transfers over. In a single match, WP or how many kills someone had is decent at showing how well they did in that match. What does a KD/R of 3.97 mean as a whole outside the game? Does it mean that I routinely kill 4 people before I die? Does it mean for every game that I go 0/30 I go 12 games of 10/0? It doesn't really mean anything if regards to how consistent someone is. Warpoints are a similar thing in that regard; it shows how well someone was 'helpful' to the team in a single match but overall it just shows how much you play. I think DUST/Legion can be dynamic enough that using "how many dudes do you kill before you die?" or "how large is your arbitrary number?" shouldn't be the be-all and end-all that it currently is. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3108	Posted - 2014.05.21 21:06:00 - [6] - Quote S Park Finner wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: I personaly want to move away from KD and warpoints its a hangover from the quake days. I would much rather have isk damage caused and isk earned. And instead each player has a player card when you kill him or win the match you get his card with his fitting on it, these cards could be traded with other players and be used as a method of market reaserch :-P. Idea inspired by kill mails :-P How would you feel about a game mode where the win condition was "X ISK of equipment lost" rather than (or along side) clones retired and objectives taken? Would be perfect for legion tbh "i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
Louis Domi Pradox One Proficiency V. 288	Posted - 2014.05.21 21:25:00 - [7] - Quote I'd rather change the way kills work, if i deplete a guys hp over 90% and another guy gets a lucky last hit then it should count as me killing the guy
S Park Finner DUST University Ivy League 387	Posted - 2014.05.21 23:54:00 - [8] - Quote Louis Domi wrote: I'd rather change the way kills work, if i deplete a guys hp over 90% and another guy gets a lucky last hit then it should count as me killing the guy It looks like you like the idea of keeping kills as a metric. Is it just the name "kill" or would it be OK if "kill" was something like "laid the last blow" and there was a new statistic for "did the most damage"? It is but to keep the nerves at strain, to dry one's eyes and laugh at a fall, and baffled, get up and begin again.
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1352	Posted - 2014.05.22 01:30:00 - [9] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: I personaly want to move away from KD and warpoints its a hangover from the quake days. I would much rather have isk damage caused and isk earned. And instead each player has a player card when you kill him or win the match you get his card with his fitting on it, these cards could be traded with other players and be used as a method of market reaserch :-P. Idea inspired by kill mails :-P This. K/D is a pointless metric in Dust/Legion and every logi can attest that. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Dauth Jenkins Ultramarine Corp Covert Intervention 533	Posted - 2014.05.22 04:38:00 - [10] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: I personaly want to move away from KD and warpoints its a hangover from the quake days. I would much rather have isk damage caused and isk earned. And instead each player has a player card when you kill him or win the match you get his card with his fitting on it, these cards could be traded with other players and be used as a method of market reaserch :-P. Idea inspired by kill mails :-P Wait, what if I don't kill anything that match? (I'm a logi and a transport pilot, so where am I going to earn my isk from?) -Sincerely --The Dual Swarm Commando

Garth Mandra The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 386	Posted - 2014.05.22 05:36:00 - [11] - Quote I agree. Points for damage dealt plus a bonus for the finishing blow and another bonus for terminating a clone. If it bleeds out then give the bonus to the last hit, if the clone was double tapped then give the points to the double tapper. K/D is a decent metric for analysing performance for slayers. Better metrics would be isk efficiency (include the cost of a clone in that too). Obviously it's not a good metric for support focussed players. I don't want to see any "game modes" in legion. Let's say there is a location with some loot. Two teams deploy there and battle. The value of the loot along with chance of success should determine when/if a team decides to withdraw. If two teams want to fight for hours over a insert loot here and waste hundreds of clones then they should be able to. If they have the logistical support to keep them supplied with clones etc of course. If Legion is based around PvE then is plausible since you can just leave a battle if you're outclassed or outnumbered and go find some other PvE to do. More sandbox!
steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3112	Posted - 2014.05.22 07:11:00 - [12] - Quote Dauth Jenkins wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: I personaly want to move away from KD and warpoints its a hangover from the quake days. I would much rather have isk damage caused and isk earned. And instead each player has a player card when you kill him or win the match you get his card with his fitting on it, these cards could be traded with other players and be used as a method of market reaserch :-P. Idea inspired by kill mails :-P Wait, what if I don't kill anything that match? (I'm a logi and a transport pilot, so where am I going to earn my isk from?) I want how isk payouts are done changed too, so instead of just the top guys getting a iffy payday, each contract is a set value and everyone on winning team gets that ammount. "i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3443	Posted - 2014.05.22 12:55:00 - [13] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: What I want is for Kills and Deaths to only be counted if the clone is lost. The person who drops the clone gets credit for GÇ£IncapacitationGÇ¥ and gets 25 WP. If the Cone bleeds out, or is destroyed the person who Incapacitated the clone gets another 25 WP and credit for a kill. The problem is that Nanites not only become a way to save your friend's ISK, get them back on the battlefield faster, and to prevent a clone loss but also a way to deny the other side some points. Denial is a pain. That might be more of a concern if it was not for the fact that you can terminate a clone by shooting the body (You donGÇÖt just have Shield and Armour, you also have clone health (like structure in EVE) which is not shown on a bar. If you run out of clone health you go straight to the spawn screen.) Also, you can pick up extra points picking off the Medic. Joseph Ridgeson wrote: I don't think I am a fan of the Warpoint or KDA thing, at least how it transfers over. In a single match, WP or how many kills someone had is decent at showing how well they did in that match. What does a KD/R of 3.97 mean as a whole outside the game? Does it mean that I routinely kill 4 people before I die? Does it mean for every game that I go 0/30 I go 12 games of 10/0? It doesn't really mean anything if regards to how consistent someone is. Warpoints are a similar thing in that regard; it shows how well someone was 'helpful' to the team in a single match but overall it just shows how much you play. I think DUST/Legion can be dynamic enough that using "how many dudes do you kill before you die?" or "how large is your arbitrary number?" shouldn't be the be-all and end-all that it currently is. The problem is not with the WP and KDR states themselves, the problem is that we donGÇÖt have enough states to put things in context. We need more stats to tell the whole story. Here are just some of the stats we need: WP Kills Assists Clone Deaths Clones Revived LAV Kills HAV Kills Dropship Kills Matches ISK Loss ISK Destroyed (Value of Financial losses you have inflicted on the enemy.) WP/Match Kills/Match Deaths/Match Assists/Match Kills/Deaths ISK Earned/ISK Loss ISK Destroyed/ISK Loss Longest Range Kill Longest Kill Streak Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3443	Posted - 2014.05.22 12:58:00 - [14] - Quote Louis Domi wrote: I'd rather change the way kills work, if i deplete a guys hp over 90% and another guy gets a lucky last hit then it should count as me killing the guy On Kill mails in EVE they give credit for both Top Damage, and Killing Blow. Of course in EVE everyone who participated gets credit for a kill. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3443	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:03:00 - [15] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: Dauth Jenkins wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: I personaly want to move away from KD and warpoints its a hangover from the quake days. I would much rather have isk damage caused and isk earned. And instead each player has a player card when you kill him or win the match you get his card with his fitting on it, these cards could be traded with other players and be used as a method of market reaserch :-P. Idea inspired by kill mails :-P Wait, what if I don't kill anything that match? (I'm a logi and a transport pilot, so where am I going to earn my isk from?) I want how isk payouts are done changed too, so instead of just the top guys getting a iffy payday, each contract is a set value and everyone on winning team gets that ammount. Currently the amount of ISK you make has to do with the value of stuff you destroy, and the number or WP you generate. If you kill proto suits you get more ISK than if you kill militia suits. I like it that way. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Titus Stryker Ancient Exiles. General Tso's Alliance 347	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:10:00 - [16] - Quote Louis Domi wrote: I'd rather change the way kills work, if i deplete a guys hp over 90% and another guy gets a lucky last hit then it should count as me killing the guy Disagree, kill shots always rewarded the most because close only counts in horseshoes... I stream DUST on YouTube
steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3115	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:13:00 - [17] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: Dauth Jenkins wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: I personaly want to move away from KD and warpoints its a hangover from the quake days. I would much rather have isk damage caused and isk earned. And instead each player has a player card when you kill him or win the match you get his card with his fitting on it, these cards could be traded with other players and be used as a method of market reaserch :-P. Idea inspired by kill mails :-P Wait, what if I don't kill anything that match? (I'm a logi and a transport pilot, so where am I going to earn my isk from?) I want how isk payouts are done changed too, so instead of just the top guys getting a iffy payday, each contract is a set value and everyone on winning team gets that ammount. Currently the amount of ISK you make has to do with the value of stuff you destroy, and the number or WP you generate. If you kill proto suits you get more ISK than if you kill militia suits. I like it that way. So what about the guy who spends all match hacking or trying to hack points, he is a key part of the match but gets a rubish payout and a high losses vs a scrub sniper who placed a uplink in a useless place killed noone of importance and makes a killing? The current system favour kills over any kinda of teamplay thats not the way to go about it "i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 2980	Posted - 2014.05.22 13:37:00 - [18] - Quote I understand the desire to get more contribution for your kill, and having a kill stolen is always frustrating but there may be some issues with contribution based rewards. First is a design issue... The kill itself is what actually matters. If you deal 99% of my health and I survive and run away... I'm still a threat on the field. You've effectively done very little to remove me from the field... but that scout who cloaked up and ran all of the way around the socket, forgoing any opportunity at other kills, just to flank me gets that finishing blow. Does he deserve only 1% of the credit for actually killing me and removing me from the field? Especially if it took significant time to set up that ambush/flank? (fwiw I think fitting a cloak should reduce WP gains by 99% myself... because lolcloak amirite? ) Although just thoughts popping in my head... you could make damage WPs total to 40 WP and add a Killing Blow +20 maybe? A full hp kill would be 60 WPs then... same as a headshot kill. Second is a coding issue... When you have multiple sources hitting a target and that target is receiving self reps and remote reps you can imagine how quickly trying to calculate WP contribution can get messy. If you assume its still only a maximum of 60 WP per kill, that means any point of rep would have to cancel out the damage contribution from another player. This means we need a table with the damage contribution of every single bullet with its own time index and player ID and a total sum for each player's contribution and then have one of these tables updating every 15-20(ish) microseconds for all players on the field. I understand PCs can do a lot but that sounds like a bit of strain and a lot of calculations... I'm not a programmer so maybe its not that bad but something tells me there is a reason why that doesn't happen in more games?
S Park Finner DUST University Ivy League 387	Posted - 2014.05.22 14:00:00 - [19] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: ... Second is a coding issue... When you have multiple sources hitting a target and that target is receiving self reps and remote reps you can imagine how quickly trying to calculate WP contribution can get messy. If you assume its still only a maximum of 60 WP per kill, that means any point of rep would have to cancel out the damage contribution from another player. This means we need a table with the damage contribution of every single bullet with its own time index and player ID and a total sum for each player's contribution and then have one of these tables updating every 15-20(ish) microseconds for all players on the field. I understand PCs can do a lot but that sounds like a bit of strain and a lot of calculations... I'm not a programmer so maybe its not that bad but something tells me there is a reason why that doesn't happen in more games? FWIW, an algorithm for this is well known. But the point of having the ability to do this server side is a good one. We can't answer that for the Legion servers. For the masochists among us, an example. Who fired and how much damage is done to a target is already known -- it's necessary to recording the damage to the target and giving credit for the kill if it happens. How much damage is healed is already known -- it's necessary for repairing the target. Each time damage is done the damage dealer's ID and amount of damage is pushed into a list associated with the target. Each time the target is healed, the amount is subtracted from the contribution of the oldest damage dealer on the list. When the contribution goes to zero, the damage dealer is removed from the list and excess damage is removed from the next damage dealer's contribution. If the target is killed the list is used to parcel out credit for the kill. If the target is fully healed all the damage dealers on the list have been removed -- it is reset. So there's a lot of work. But it's not impossible and smart folks can come up with better solutions than the simple one above. Only CCP can decide if this makes sense for their vision of game play and within the processing budget they have for the servers when everything falls out. Since this is server-side it isn't a Legion / DUST 514 issue if I understand their set-up correctly. The whole question of how possible it is will depend on how many hamsters CCP hitch up to the game when (if?) it comes out. It is but to keep the nerves at strain, to dry one's eyes and laugh at a fall, and baffled, get up and begin again.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 2980	Posted - 2014.05.22 16:48:00 - [20] - Quote S Park Finner wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: ... Second is a coding issue... When you have multiple sources hitting a target and that target is receiving self reps and remote reps you can imagine how quickly trying to calculate WP contribution can get messy. If you assume its still only a maximum of 60 WP per kill, that means any point of rep would have to cancel out the damage contribution from another player. This means we need a table with the damage contribution of every single bullet with its own time index and player ID and a total sum for each player's contribution and then have one of these tables updating every 15-20(ish) microseconds for all players on the field. I understand PCs can do a lot but that sounds like a bit of strain and a lot of calculations... I'm not a programmer so maybe its not that bad but something tells me there is a reason why that doesn't happen in more games? FWIW, an algorithm for this is well known. But the point of having the ability to do this server side is a good one. We can't answer that for the Legion servers. For the masochists among us, an example. Who fired and how much damage is done to a target is already known -- it's necessary to recording the damage to the target and giving credit for the kill if it happens. How much damage is healed is already known -- it's necessary for repairing the target. Each time damage is done the damage dealer's ID and amount of damage is pushed into a list associated with the target. Each time the target is healed, the amount is subtracted from the contribution of the oldest damage dealer on the list. When the contribution goes to zero, the damage dealer is removed from the list and excess damage is removed from the next damage dealer's contribution. If the target is killed the list is used to parcel out credit for the kill. If the target is fully healed all the damage dealers on the list have been removed -- it is reset. So there's a lot of work. But it's not impossible and smart folks can come up with better solutions than the simple one above. Only CCP can decide if this makes sense for their vision of game play and within the processing budget they have for the servers when everything falls out. Since this is server-side it isn't a Legion / DUST 514 issue if I understand their set-up correctly. The whole question of how possible it is will depend on how many hamsters CCP hitch up to the game when (if?) it comes out. Yeah, you are I are thinking the same thing, although if two people are firing simultaneously you would have to split up each bullet's contribution to a time ID. So Player ID - Damage - Time ID A - 30 - 1.25s B - 45 - 1.30s A - 30 - 1.30s A - 30 - 1.35s B - 45 - 1.40s etc etc and then have repairs remove listings from the top of the list. Programmatically its probably quite simple... that's a lot of calculations done per second though considering that would have to be done for each player in the game. I'm not a server engineer but its sounds like a lot of work for a battle server to have to deal with. Have you seen a similar system used in another game?



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