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S Park Finner
DUST University
Ivy League
374
   |
Posted - 2014.05.19 01:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
TL/DR: EVE does design, Legion does shoot-em-in-the-face, Planetary Interaction is integrated with Planetary Conquest, nobody has to wait for a battle and everyone can steal from everyone else. Please beat the ideas up!
In the distant past, some players thought EVE players would build the maps for DUST 514.
The vision was that Planetary Interaction (PI) players in EVE would have the option of laying out the shape of the on-planet facilities they put down. That was never supported by CCP that I know of but the work done since on sockets and pre-built socket components combined with the new platform might allow the idea to be revisited.
The way it would work would be that a PI player would lay down his facilities and have the option of doing detailed facility design using the components the Legion team put together or just allowing the the Legion defaults layouts to define the maps. In any case, tie the two games together pushing more of the spreadsheet / design elements to EVE and the shoot-them-in-the-face elements to Legion.
Pluses:
- Players would relieve some of the burden of populating all the worlds
- No two planets (and at least potentially no two maps) would be the same
- The EVE players and Legion players have a point of interaction - - Legion players fight over components EVE players care about
- - EVE players can have a hand in protecting components they really want to preserve
- - The nature of PI components moving as the planet is mined changes the tactical pattern on the planet over time
- There is potential for Legion players to hold and mine territory on their own
- - EVE players could sell territory to Legion corporations / players
- - Legion players could attack territory on their own and keep it.
Minuses:
- There has to be a mechanism in EVE (and potentially Legion) that allows for the facility layout
- All the components / terrain / mechanics has to be created / coordinated with the EVE side
- Integration with the rest of the game (Planetary conquest especially) has to be taken into account
Why do it?
Replacing the rather empty, DUST 514 only, clone generation mechanic with EVE's Planetary Interaction mining and manufacturing mechanic would add both more integration between the two games and a more solid meaning to fighting over territory in the first place: the time-honoured competition for resources.
Additional facilities (I'd suggest things like planetary shields, surface to space weapons, defensive drone manufacture, ...) can enrich both the Planetary Interaction game play and open the door for Legion only facilities if Legion corporation ownership of planets is a direction CCP wants to go.
A mechanism like (say) Legion players voting on the designs of EVE players so that part of accepting a contract would be how previous mercenaries judged the map and if it was fun / balanced / what-ever would allow for some feedback between the two games.
But how would player's sign up for matches? How would corporations get contracts? How would Legion corporations own territory?
The goal is a light weight system that eliminates attackers and defenders having to sign up for battles at particular times but still gives them credit and lets them stage battles if they want to.
Principles:
- Territory can only be taken if the attackers win a series of battles. The battles have to be distributed over a long enough time to allow the defenders to respond. If that number was, say, five battles the attackers would have to win all five to take the territory.
- Each time the attacker wins the next battle becomes more difficult GÇô perhaps by more resources being available to the defenders, or more NPC support (drones), or a game mode that favours defenders.
- If the attacker has won four battles (in our example) and then the defender wins one the attackers are put back to the three battle level.
- Defence and attack contracts are for a period of time. Multiple contracts and subcontracts are allowed.
- For a defender to get credit the territory must stay in the owner's hands for the period of the defender contract and defender mercenaries must participate in winning defence battles. Defenders get one point per player when they win.
- For the attackers to get credit the attackers must take the district within the allotted time and attacker mercenaries must participate in winning attack battles. Attackers get one point per player when they win.
- The contribution of corporations to winning or loosing is tallied up at the end of the contract and the territory owner uses that to settle up with the mercenary corporation.
- When ever a defender or attacker signs up for a battle in the territory they are contracted to the game system will schedule a battle for that district. Attackers only get placed on the attacking team, defenders only on the defending team. Slots not filled by the contracted corporations will be filled by random players.
- Either attackers or defenders can call for a scheduled battle. All parties contracted to the territory are notified and if at least one team on both sides signs up the battle is scheduled.
- The game system will randomly schedule battles over territory with random players so the territory is always at some risk.
This post is a summary of several threads: Regis Blackbird, CCP Android, pseudosnipre, atiim, Syeven Reed, Hawk-eye, Occultus, 501st Headstron, and Ayures II contributed to those discussions and I mined many more general threads for other ideas especially Fox Gaden's post here.
It is but to keep the nerves at strain, to dry one's eyes and laugh at a fall, and baffled, get up and begin again.
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Godin Thekiller
shadows of 514
2333
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Posted - 2014.05.19 02:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'd say that It'd only be available in Lo and NULLsec, and that Hisec these structures are unavailable. Why? Faction sov. I see this concept as putting up a government building in a area you don't own (rather regular current PI is like making a business in a area you don't own). Hell, this could get as serious as forcing people to pack up and move, or even better, stealing their stuff and blowing up their structures in LO and NULLsec.
EDIT: read about the battles thing, and I'd rather not go down that path.........
click me
Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
1996
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Posted - 2014.05.19 02:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Back in 2011, I got on SiSi and I decided to go trawling about in Null.
I had never previously been in Null at this point and decided to look at planets.
One of the things that I noticed while I was looking at planets was "Dust Infrastructure", it didn't show anything, though there was a (useless) dropdown menu on the PI screen with that as the title.
I know, pics or it didn't happen, I have no pics so you can believe me if you want or not.
I just wanted to bring this up since you said:
S Park Finner wrote:The vision was that Planetary Interaction (PI) players in EVE would have the option of laying out the shape of the on-planet facilities they put down. That was never supported by CCP that I know of but the work done since on sockets and pre-built socket components combined with the new platform might allow the idea to be revisited.
Arzadu Akbar Motherfuckers!!!!
Closed Beta Bittervet Bomber
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S Park Finner
DUST University
Ivy League
374
|
Posted - 2014.05.19 02:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Godin -- thanks for taking the time to comment.
Godin Thekiller wrote:I'd say that It'd only be available in Lo and NULLsec... I could see that as a concern for EVE players in Hi-sec. If I understand you correctly, though, that the battles take place in Lo and NULL sec would not make a difference on the Legion side of things.
Am I right about that?
If involving Legion in Faction Warfare was important to the DEVs and the community might that be achieved with boarding parties attacking the various FW structures in space?
It is but to keep the nerves at strain, to dry one's eyes and laugh at a fall, and baffled, get up and begin again.
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Gaelon Thrace
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
473
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Posted - 2014.05.19 04:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
I've mentioned this briefly in a couple of threads. Glad someone with the patience to go into more detail took the time to write a full post about it.
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Ender Storm
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
157
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Posted - 2014.05.20 13:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
I feel CCP got cold feet upon that.
I mean, they want the game conected, but were afraid to actually connect them.
Dust being influenced by PI would make Dust game heavily impact on unsuspecting EVE players that use PI as a non-intensive, low effort way to gain passive ISK.
With mercs being able to take these operations down, many people in EVE would be mad.
Further, the way PI is handled in the practical sense - structure types and placement, IDK if it has good adherence to Dust maps, since its independent of the districts concept view we have in Dust.
There would be needs of a total revamp of the PI system in a way to correctly correlate the EVE side and Dust side of things.
Also, they would need to engineer the system in a way the player doing PI cared. Right now, PI is IMO cheap, it dosent cost a lot so there should be an incentive for a PI owner want to pay for mercs to reconquer its structures.
Since in Hi-sec Sov has no meaning, I only see such incentive in Null and Low sec, theres planet conquest may have an impact on Sov or FW.
So, idk, to me CCP saw the ammount of work to integrate PI and Dust and just went no-no mode on that. |
Regis Blackbird
DUST University
Ivy League
234
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 19:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
+1
Interesting idea 
Sadly I don't know enough about EVE PI to judge the feasibility, but I think it can be a good long term goal.
Overall I think You, Fox, Godin, Me (well, everybody I imagine) want Legion to have meaningful interaction with EVE, that benefit both games, AND can be experienced by the majority of the players. The orbital bombardment mechanic in Dust 514 was awesome for those (lucky few) who experienced it first hand in both EVE and Dust (also simultaneously)
The feeling of dodging gate camps, avoid ambushes, desperately getting to the destination fight while hearing the battle raging on the voice comms in the background was more immersive than I have ever felt in any game. This feeling also went the other way, when looking up in the sky in Dust and observing the blue marker representing a EVE ship, and realizing this is a real person up there which you are coordinating with in real time.
It was a truly a major technical achievement, and CCP should get all the credit in the world that they pulled this off.
Sadly, as only a tiny fraction of the Dust players ever saw this interaction, and got diluted with endless NPC warbarge OB spam, the Dust <-> EVE link was usually dismissed as non existent. 
Legion NEED to do better on this point. |
S Park Finner
DUST University
Ivy League
382
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 22:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ender Storm wrote:
...
With mercs being able to take these operations down, many people in EVE would be mad.
Further, the way PI is handled in the practical sense - structure types and placement, IDK if it has good adherence to Dust maps, since its independent of the districts concept view we have in Dust.
There would be needs of a total revamp of the PI system in a way to correctly correlate the EVE side and Dust side of things.
Also, they would need to engineer the system in a way the player doing PI cared. Right now, PI is IMO cheap, it dosent cost a lot so there should be an incentive for a PI owner want to pay for mercs to reconquer its structures.
...
So, idk, to me CCP saw the ammount of work to integrate PI and Dust and just went no-no mode on that.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said here.
EVE prides itself, it seems to me, on injecting risk into all player activities. PI is one of those low risk, just OK reward activities that is ripe for an overhaul. If, in the process, real integration between EVE and Legion can be enhanced that would, in my opinion, be a win.
Regis Blackbird wrote:
...
Overall I think You, Fox, Godin, Me (well, everybody I imagine) want Legion to have meaningful interaction with EVE, that benefit both games, AND can be experienced by the majority of the players. The orbital bombardment mechanic in Dust 514 was awesome for those (lucky few) who experienced it first hand in both EVE and Dust (also simultaneously)
....
On the forums the community has talked a lot about integration but I can't off hand think of a clear statement from the DEVs about it. I haven't really looked back through the forums, blogs and videos. It could easily be that when I originally looked through them I just wasn't watching for it. Do you folks (or anyone else who happens to read this) know what the DEVs have said?
It is but to keep the nerves at strain, to dry one's eyes and laugh at a fall, and baffled, get up and begin again.
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Regis Blackbird
DUST University
Ivy League
235
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 06:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
S Park Finner wrote:Regis Blackbird wrote:
...
Overall I think You, Fox, Godin, Me (well, everybody I imagine) want Legion to have meaningful interaction with EVE, that benefit both games, AND can be experienced by the majority of the players. The orbital bombardment mechanic in Dust 514 was awesome for those (lucky few) who experienced it first hand in both EVE and Dust (also simultaneously)
....
On the forums the community has talked a lot about integration but I can't off hand think of a clear statement from the DEVs about it. I haven't really looked back through the forums, blogs and videos. It could easily be that when I originally looked through them I just wasn't watching for it. Do you folks (or anyone else who happens to read this) know what the DEVs have said?
I don't think they have mentioned anything specific, no. What they did mention was immersion (one of their "four pillars"), and in my opinion there is nothing that increases immersion like a good EVE link, as stated in my previous post.
The Joint mission suggestion I made in another thread (link below) were based on my understanding of how the orbital mechanic works today (I.e it is a system which is already in place and working). I probably kill a lot of kittens by saying this, but it "should" be easy to implement the same mechanic to do more exotic stuff than just an OB. A joint mission would bring the immersion I have felt during OBs, and make it available to the overall population (both EVE and Legion), both blueberries and vets.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2156721#post2156721
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Ender Storm
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
160
|
Posted - 2014.05.21 14:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
S Park Finner wrote:
EVE prides itself, it seems to me, on injecting risk into all player activities. PI is one of those low risk, just OK reward activities that is ripe for an overhaul. If, in the process, real integration between EVE and Legion can be enhanced that would, in my opinion, be a win.
Yeah, I agree.
I think that PI would be greatly benefited by an overhaul in this way.
Instead of getting just the "geological" view, the players would have an added overlay with the district layout.
He would then have to select what districts would be used for extractors, which ones would have to be used for warehouses, which one would be used for placing the control center, which one would be used for the launch pad.
Inside each of these districts, he would place his structures.
From there, you already got a good variation of "planet maps" to play with.
CCP could go further with player content, allowing the maps to be personalized.
Probably the PI player would be the logical choice on that matter, since in this scenario hes the person responsible for the planet, and mercs are pretty much 'mobile' and errant. Further, this could be a "Role" what woudl be assigned, so any players, EVE or Legion could assume this task.
The player would get "construction points" which he could then use to upgrade defenses, place walls and design a fortified position.
There woudl be rules fo course for placement and stuff in order to, in the end, dinamically generate the capture points that would reflect the battle development to come - some sort of power and/or control node that would feed nearby structures, and would need to be capped by the attacker.
Well, thats the gist of what i think that integration could be like. |
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