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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3341
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Posted - 2014.05.15 14:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
It sounds like CCP Z is overwhelmed with the volume of feedback on his progression system, so he will be relying on the CPM for feedback. I am not sure how many of my own concerns over the proposed progression system are valid, and how many stem from lack of information.
I think that if I boil my concerns down to their essence, and dispense with a fear of change, that I just want some assurance that the following principals will be adhered to in the new system.
Principals:
- The progression system needs to be non linear, so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.)
- Every skill point invested should provide a tangible benefit. (The current system breaks this rule. Think level 4 and 5 of Dropsuit Command.)
- No max number of skill points. (The fact that you never stop progressing in EVE is one of the reasons people stick with EVE so long, and why when they do leave they usually come back. Legion needs to maintain this as well.)
Do you agree with these principals? Does CCP Z agree with these principals?
Fox Gaden, Crash Gaden, Renier Gaden
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
13302
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Posted - 2014.05.15 14:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Has the concept of a maximum number of skill points come up somewhere? If so, I must have missed it. Can you provide a link?
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3343
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Posted - 2014.05.15 15:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Has the concept of a maximum number of skill points come up somewhere? If so, I must have missed it. Can you provide a link?
No, thankfully it has not, but it is a guiding principal that they should continue to follow.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Phoenix 85
Kirkinen Risk Control
Caldari State
94
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Posted - 2014.05.15 16:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
They just need to tiericde the current system and add new roles, such as suits made for exploration and salvage and other stuff.
EDUCATE YOURSELF
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Killar-12
OLDSPICE.
Top Men.
2847
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Posted - 2014.05.15 16:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:It sounds like CCP Z is overwhelmed with the volume of feedback on his progression system, so he will be relying on the CPM for feedback. I am not sure how many of my own concerns over the proposed progression system are valid, and how many stem from lack of information.
I think that if I boil my concerns down to their essence, and dispense with a fear of change, that I just want some assurance that the following principals will be adhered to in the new system.
Principals:
- The progression system needs to be non linear, so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.)
- Every skill point invested should provide a tangible benefit. (The current system breaks this rule. Think level 4 and 5 of Dropsuit Command.)
- No max number of skill points. (The fact that you never stop progressing in EVE is one of the reasons people stick with EVE so long, and why when they do leave they usually come back. Legion needs to maintain this as well.)
Do you agree with these principals? Does CCP Z agree with these principals?
Fox Gaden, Crash Gaden, Renier Gaden
1 Agreed
2 Agreed
3 Agreed
Teiricide and more roles would be nice, Salvage and Exploration would be good opportunities
I AM 1337 Approved
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Appia Vibbia
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2407
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Posted - 2014.05.15 16:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
I agree with your 3 principles, but have a few qualms about the situation.
Do we have any assurance that Z will be any different and listen to any CPM member or the giant thread in Legion section? Will he take any criticism and reject it "because i'm always right" was a pretty big trend with DUST's development.
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com
AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
2538
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Posted - 2014.05.15 16:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Completely agree. Diminishing returns is great because you can keep adding new, but smaller ways to improve, allowing people to continue to spend outrageous numbers of skillpoints for only a small difference. Noticeable, but not enough to really become that much more powerful than a newer player.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Adelia Lafayette
Science For Death
Final Resolution.
791
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Posted - 2014.05.15 17:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Those 3 principles are solid. What I would like to see when more details come out is accessibility. Eve has improved on this with teiricide making it faster to skill into new roles even if you weren't terribly good with them. I'd like to see that you can quickly get new gear and equipment quickly and with clever tactics and a little reaction time allowing you to compete while the diminishing returns on someone more invested still gives them an edge. It is a tough thing to balance.
Assault dropship gets blown up....
(Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ "Kitten this I'm out"...
..."I'm back"
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15033
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Posted - 2014.05.15 17:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Z is solid on point 2 and 3.
It's point one we're likely going to be conflicted over between him, community and council.
Also to stay eve is not linear needs to start a new character all over again and see that in order to get certain things you must train the things before it. One does not simply titan in a week. There is also the preconceptual NEED to train all related modules before hand and that by not training the needed modules for said platform often leads to our favorite section of the killboards the alods.
Just far too often players in both dust 514 and eve online; the ones that never get secondary help would often come up with the most terrible of fits; putting things onto platforms that the platform was not meant to be using at all. Like putting railguns on an amarrian ship where railguns without the bonuses are rather terrible weapon system without the extra ship bonus assistance.
On the flip side however veterans love the idea of flexibility; they do not make the mistakes rookies do. Over the coming months I hope CCP Z and the community can collaborate a more perfect progression that advantages the new player ever so as much as the veteran when it comes to learning the game and eventually maximising the entire SP expenditure.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
2540
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Posted - 2014.05.15 18:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Also to stay eve is not linear needs to start a new character all over again and see that in order to get certain things you must train the things before it. One does not simply titan in a week. There is also the preconceptual NEED to train all related modules before hand and that by not training the needed modules for said platform often leads to our favorite section of the killboards the alods.
I think by non-linear he meant that skills have diminishing returns, in terms of SP for benefit.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15034
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Posted - 2014.05.15 18:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Also to stay eve is not linear needs to start a new character all over again and see that in order to get certain things you must train the things before it. One does not simply titan in a week. There is also the preconceptual NEED to train all related modules before hand and that by not training the needed modules for said platform often leads to our favorite section of the killboards the alods. I think by non-linear he meant that skills have diminishing returns, in terms of SP for benefit.
If thats the case eve suffers the worst of it with 16x skills that barely pump up anything.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Adelia Lafayette
Science For Death
Final Resolution.
791
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Posted - 2014.05.15 19:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Also to stay eve is not linear needs to start a new character all over again and see that in order to get certain things you must train the things before it. One does not simply titan in a week. There is also the preconceptual NEED to train all related modules before hand and that by not training the needed modules for said platform often leads to our favorite section of the killboards the alods. I think by non-linear he meant that skills have diminishing returns, in terms of SP for benefit. If thats the case eve suffers the worst of it with 16x skills that barely pump up anything.
I can now align my rorqual 5% faster with capital ships 5... 5% faster than a snail's pace is a snail's pace
Assault dropship gets blown up....
(Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ "Kitten this I'm out"...
..."I'm back"
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3351
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Posted - 2014.05.15 20:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Also to stay eve is not linear needs to start a new character all over again and see that in order to get certain things you must train the things before it. One does not simply titan in a week. There is also the preconceptual NEED to train all related modules before hand and that by not training the needed modules for said platform often leads to our favorite section of the killboards the alods. I think by non-linear he meant that skills have diminishing returns, in terms of SP for benefit. If thats the case eve suffers the worst of it with 16x skills that barely pump up anything.
If a x16 skill is worth it to you then train it. If it is not worth it to you, then donGÇÖt train it. The point is that a x16 skill is not going to give you an unfair advantage over a new player. (Actually with most 16x skills you will not be competing against new players.)
What is worth it to a 3 year old account to train is different from what it is worth it for a 3 month old account to train.
The point is that both the 3 month old account and the 3 year old account should have things that are worth training, while at the same time the 3 month old account should have a chance when competing against the 3 year old account, in any contest in which it is appropriate for a 3 month old account to be competing in.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
1156
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Posted - 2014.05.15 22:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:
- The progression system needs to be non linear, so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.)
The actual fact would be that new players can get competitive quicker with a linear system. If they are guided along a role, they don't drop extraneous, non-useful SP along the way. However, I do agree that being too restrictive on this could be detrimental. Not to the competitive level, but the fun, play your own way, style that DUST has been toting since Closed Beta and Before.
Fox Gaden wrote:
- Every skill point invested should provide a tangible benefit. (The current system breaks this rule. Think level 4 and 5 of Dropsuit Command.)
Yes.
Fox Gaden wrote:- No max number of skill points. (The fact that you never stop progressing in EVE is one of the reasons people stick with EVE so long, and why when they do leave they usually come back. Legion needs to maintain this as well.)
EVE may have no maximum number of Skill Points, but the same Time = SP is put in. The only difference is that in EVE you earn x amount of SP per month / week / day / hour so long as you have a skill in training, (And you have an active subscription). This semi-passive SP accrual makes it seem as though the sky is the limit.
DUST 514 took this concept, and to encourage people to play (as any F2P title would) halved the passive SP, and put an active 'cap' on top to bring it up to their prospective SP over Time level. In fact, in DUST, unlike EVE, it's possible to grind beyond said cap (albeit at a much slower pace) whereas in EVE you get a flat rate no matter what.
DUST also, instead of requiring something to be invested into (nominated skill in training) it goes into a pool. I'm not a huge fan of the SP pool with Passive and Active SP incomes... but the alternatives can slide to reward a flat WP to SP (or EXP) rate similar to that of Planetside 2 where every action gives you EXP, no cap, but making it suchj a grind that while you CAN make max level fast, it requires ALOT of time investment. Or alternatively, we take an EVE style approach and make it all Passive. You choose x skill, and gain sp while that skill is in the queue. This doesn't encourage people to play, however, and player numbers and activity is what makes F2P actually work.
Transferring the DUST system to Legion is a happy compromise. You can leave, and come back, and have gained SP (albeit half of what you could have earned) or you can actively play and earn more SP.
Until we have many more details on the new Progression system (which is still in prototype phase) I wont comment on the overall system's effectiveness.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3353
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Posted - 2014.05.15 23:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:
- The progression system needs to be non linear, so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.)
The actual fact would be that new players can get competitive quicker with a linear system. If they are guided along a role, they don't drop extraneous, non-useful SP along the way. However, I do agree that being too restrictive on this could be detrimental. Not to the competitive level, but the fun, play your own way, style that DUST has been toting since Closed Beta and Before.
What the hell are you talking about? I was talking about the expenditure of skill points over time, as in: a linear relationship of skill point benefit over time compared to a logarithmic curve where the benefit of skill points is high at first and decreases over time.
By definition new players would never become competitive at all in a linear system unless benefits derived from skill points was completely meaningless.
Non Linear system: Level 1(31,320 SP), Level 2 (93,250 SP), Level 3 (217,650 SP)
Linear system: Level 1 (31,320 SP), Level 2 (31,320 SP), Level 3 (31,320 SP)
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3353
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Posted - 2014.05.15 23:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:Until we have many more details on the new Progression system (which is still in prototype phase) I wont comment on the overall system's effectiveness.
My point was to boil down the principals that should be followed in any system they come up with, not a commentary on the system CCP Z proposed. I don't know enough about CCP Z's system to know if it follows these principals or not.
I admit to being very disturbed over how badly you have misinterpreted my post. Did I really explain myself so poorly? I am usually good at explaining my thoughts.
What are the core principals that you think need to be followed in any successful progression system?
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
1156
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Posted - 2014.05.16 01:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:The Black Jackal wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:
- The progression system needs to be non linear, so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.)
The actual fact would be that new players can get competitive quicker with a linear system. If they are guided along a role, they don't drop extraneous, non-useful SP along the way. However, I do agree that being too restrictive on this could be detrimental. Not to the competitive level, but the fun, play your own way, style that DUST has been toting since Closed Beta and Before. What the hell are you talking about? I was talking about the expenditure of skill points over time, as in: a linear relationship of skill point benefit over time compared to a logarithmic curve where the benefit of skill points is high at first and decreases over time. By definition new players would never become competitive at all in a linear system unless benefits derived from skill points was completely meaningless. Non Linear system: Level 1(31,320 SP), Level 2 (93,250 SP), Level 3 (217,650 SP) Linear system: Level 1 (31,320 SP), Level 2 (31,320 SP), Level 3 (31,320 SP)
I may have misinterpreted you original post. I will grant that. However, my point still stands to an extent.
Getting new players competitive is not just about SP rewards, but about the multiple linear paths.
For instance.
Veteran Specs into Caldari Assault. Grabs everything...spends, say 10 million SP and becomes 'perfect' in that role (Not actual figures)
New guy only needs 10 million SP to attain competitive level in a comparable Role. The veteran CANNOT get better by having 20 million SP on their toon, coz they already have maxed out the assault role. Newer guy with 10 million SP is AS good, in that role as the veteran player is.
Having multiple Linear progression paths has the same effect without hampering veteran advancement.
tl:dr
Extra SP means more roles, not better roles.
Note: I took your Linear Progression ideal as a set series of steps you follow, not related to the amount of SP attained. Linear Progression rings - Straigh Line Progression - to me. It may be due to my previous experience, but that is how I interpreted it.
Fox Gaden wrote:My point was to boil down the principals that should be followed in any system they come up with, not a commentary on the system CCP Z proposed. I don't know enough about CCP Z's system to know if it follows these principals or not.
I admit to being very disturbed over how badly you have misinterpreted my post. Did I really explain myself so poorly? I am usually good at explaining my thoughts.
What are the core principals that you think need to be followed in any successful progression system?
Principals that I personally believe need to be followed are:
Ease of Understanding
Players need to know what, where, and how they are going to get to their goals. Defined by role, weapon choice, vehicle type, etc. Knowing where they are going, and how they will get there, and roughly how long that will take.
Allowing progression, and catch-up, without hampering other's gameplay
The ability to let newer players catch up is paramount, but not at the cost of pissing off your veteran players by not allowing them the same level of progression.
EVE and DUST do this by cross-role training, not throttling progression as you get higher. If you invest heavily into a role and 'master' it, you then move to another role. The person behind you only needs to invest the same amount of SP and / or time into that same role to get equivalent.
Make SP Invested and Skill Level the deciding factors.
Each Skill needs to give bonuses, as you stated above, and not simply unlock new gear, or act as a SP sink. In this way, SP makes a mark. However, it cannot be so strong that Player Skill is nullified by SP investment on it's own. There must be an uphill climb for the less-invested player. but one that can be overcome by player skill.
There are others, but for the purposes of this, those are the 3 core elements I believe make a good progression system.
EDIT: I will have it noted that my preference for progression is side-grades, not upgrades.
Progressing unlocks 'other' weapons, suits, roles, equipment that are neither better nor worse than the previous equipment, but simply play differently.
Plasma Rifle 1 - Has moderate ROF, Damage, Range
Plasma Rifle 2 - Has increased range, decreased ROF
Plasma Rifle 3 - Has decreased range, increased Damage
etc. so on and so forth.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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Kevall Longstride
DUST University
Ivy League
1313
|
Posted - 2014.05.16 10:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
2 and 3 are something that are totally essential.
The first is more difficult to comment on until we have clearer information to go. By his own admission Z's system is not complete yet and he's asking us directly for feedback much, much earlier in the design phase than CCP and the CPM are used to.
What is becoming clear however as we follow his progression thread, is that the games new economy, its monetisation AND the progression system are inextricably linked to one another.
As an example, he's already confined that the marketplace will be entirely player based and all items on it will be sourced from the salvage that we find. This means of course that your ability to use weapon or module X is not only going to based on you unlocking it as a skill, it's going to based on its availability due to the supply and demand of that item on the free market.
Meaning an ISK rich player can't just buy 200 Duvalle's, seeded with no consequence from an NPC corp. He might be only able to buy the 6 available on the market for 50 million ISK each. (if that was the going rate)
There are also not going to be any AURUM items to allow you leapfrog the progression system in any way, so no need for levels 2 and 4 as in the current system. Having such items in a player driven economy won't work.
All I really want from the new system is for it to be readily understandable, enable a fast progression in the early stages so a new player can feel useful in a fight versus Vets but allow the vets to aim for a specialisation, for it to work with a functional matchmaking system to minimise protostomping and to encourage new player uptake by appealing to as large an audience as possible so it can then suck them further into the rabbit hole and they wake up with hangover in Reykjavik and a tattoo.
If its aimed at just Dust players then thats a very small target audience and the game is not going to grow.
CPM1 Candidate
CEO of DUST University
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3359
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Posted - 2014.05.16 12:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:
tl:dr
Extra SP means more roles, not better roles.
When you put it that way, I have to concede the point. I was not looking at it from that angle. However, looking at it from that angle brings up another point. In that case CCP would have to create a lot more content if they go with a linier system, otherwise a Veteran player who caps out every week will run out of stuff to skill into.
The Black Jackal wrote:
Note: I took your Linear Progression ideal as a set series of steps you follow, not related to the amount of SP attained. Linear Progression rings - Straigh Line Progression - to me. It may be due to my previous experience, but that is how I interpreted it.
Yeah, sorry. I think in graphs. I need to remind myself that others donGÇÖt.
The Black Jackal wrote:
Principals that I personally believe need to be followed are:
Ease of Understanding
Players need to know what, where, and how they are going to get to their goals. Defined by role, weapon choice, vehicle type, etc. Knowing where they are going, and how they will get there, and roughly how long that will take.
Allowing progression, and catch-up, without hampering other's gameplay
The ability to let newer players catch up is paramount, but not at the cost of pissing off your veteran players by not allowing them the same level of progression.
EVE and DUST do this by cross-role training, not throttling progression as you get higher. If you invest heavily into a role and 'master' it, you then move to another role. The person behind you only needs to invest the same amount of SP and / or time into that same role to get equivalent.
Make SP Invested and Skill Level the deciding factors.
Each Skill needs to give bonuses, as you stated above, and not simply unlock new gear, or act as a SP sink. In this way, SP makes a mark. However, it cannot be so strong that Player Skill is nullified by SP investment on it's own. There must be an uphill climb for the less-invested player. but one that can be overcome by player skill.
There are others, but for the purposes of this, those are the 3 core elements I believe make a good progression system.
EDIT: I will have it noted that my preference for progression is side-grades, not upgrades.
Progressing unlocks 'other' weapons, suits, roles, equipment that are neither better nor worse than the previous equipment, but simply play differently.
Plasma Rifle 1 - Has moderate ROF, Damage, Range
Plasma Rifle 2 - Has increased range, decreased ROF
Plasma Rifle 3 - Has decreased range, increased Damage
etc. so on and so forth.
I agree with these principals. The only concern I have is that the Ease of Understanding not be taken too far. I like hand holding when I start a game and everything is new and overwhelming, but when I start feeling sure of myself, I would like to be able to let go of the comforting hand and strike out of my own. One of the things I enjoyed (like is was its own game) was trying to figure out how to scrounge up enough PG and CPU to get a non standard fit to work. It was like a puzzle.
I think that standard fits such as making a Caldari Assault fit with shields and a Rail Rifle should be easy and obvious.
However, I think that making non standard fits, such as fitting Kinetic Catalysers on an Amarr Heavy, or putting a Rep Tool on a Scout, should require some tweaking and extra skills to make it work.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3359
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Posted - 2014.05.16 12:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:If its aimed at just Dust players then thats a very small target audience and the game is not going to grow.
I agree with the rest of your post, but I wanted to address this one part.
I think that Legion should be targeted at players who want a deeper, more complex, more thought provoking first person shooter.
Technically a DUST veteran is not just someone who wants a more complex and thought provoking experience. A DUST veteran is also a masochist who wants that so much that they are willing to stick with a game that only partially delivers it, and endure untold hardships, for the faint dream that some day we will get the game we hoped for.
If CCP delivers on the promise with Legion, it will not only appeal to the masochistic DUST vets, but will also appeal to all those 25 to 35 year olds who grow up playing FPS games and want something with more depth to it. They are not kids anymore. There are a lot of them out there. An entire generation. We donGÇÖt see a lot of them in DUST because most of them aren't masochist or hopeless dreamers.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Kevall Longstride
DUST University
Ivy League
1317
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Posted - 2014.05.16 15:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
Which is why I said just. Targeting it at exclusively at the players of a niche game and yes, it's status as a niche game is because CCP ballsed up, doesn't make too much sense.
As they've already said, Legion isn't Dust. It shares much of the DNA and lessons learnt from Dust. But pigeon holing its target audience now when it's not even greenlit yet would be a mistake.
Best to try and get it with as broad appeal as possible in the beginning with the Alpha, then through iteration in the beta we can better sense of who'd eat it up.
Remember, Halo started as an RTS an alpha and left beta as an FPS.
I just want a really good game.
CPM1 Candidate
CEO of DUST University
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Zatara Rought
Fatal Absolution
2962
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Posted - 2014.05.16 17:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
@OP
Yes sir I do.
BTW
Black Jackal's comments really struck me indelibly.
Well written.
CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1
Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3366
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Posted - 2014.05.16 17:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
Yeah, I agree, Black Jackal made some very good points which made me look at things differently.
I think it is good to have a discussion of principals. It helps to see the forest through the trees, so we donGÇÖt get so hung up on details when considering design proposals. It helps us figure out what is really important, and what we are only attached to out of familiarity.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2034
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Posted - 2014.05.17 00:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
The progression system needs to be non linear (logarithmic), so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.)
This is completely crucial to keeping the difference between High SP characters and Low SP character from becoming game breaking. Typically speaking it is important that a new player can get a skill to level 3 fairly quickly, whereas level 4 and 5 can be trained later on to optimize performance but at a much steeper benefit/SP cost. This allows new players to skill into a role fairly quickly but gives veterans the ability to use their larger SP pool to give them a competitive edge (but not an insurmountable advantage).
I feel that the 5-Level system is pretty solid at its core be allowing players to choose how much on an SP investment they want to make. It does however have some issues and I will cover a few of those below.
- Every skill point invested should provide a tangible benefit. (The current system breaks this rule. Think level 4 and 5 of Dropsuit Command.)
This is one of my biggest pet-peeves about the current system. Skill levels that do literally nothing only serve to make players feel like theyGÇÖre wasting their SP on nothing. Every single skill, not matter what, should offer some sort of bonus. I'd actually argue that variations of suits and weapons should be unlocked on levels 1,2, and 3, allowing for levels 4 and 5 to be trainable for additional bonuses. Some unlocks should be based on 4 and 5 and would be evaluated on a case by case basis, but even if a level does not unlock something, it should still offer a bonus.
- No max number of skill points. (The fact that you never stop progressing in EVE is one of the reasons people stick with EVE so long, and why when they do leave they usually come back. Legion needs to maintain this as well.)
There should never be a Maximum SP. Character progression should go on effectively endlessly so players always have something new they can train.In terms of a weekly cap, I think this needs to stay in one form or another. SP generation in EVE is always passive meaning there is a maximum amount of SP you can earn every week. There are of course ways to increase the speed at which you generate Sp but only to a point.
That being said Dust/Legion should operate on a similar principle, and while you can increase SP generation to a point (Boosters), there should be limits on how much SP you can earn earn in a given period of time. If you want to get specific, IGÇÖm a big fan of the rolling SP cap where players can GÇÿstoreGÇÖ bonus SP up over multiple weeks (to a limit) and level through it at their leisure. I think this opens up the game for those who have odd schedules and play availability.
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
Final Resolution.
1157
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Posted - 2014.05.17 02:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:@OP
Yes sir I do.
BTW
Black Jackal's comments really struck me indelibly.
Well written.
That's great. Ifeel it is always imprtant to have differing views to accentuate every issue at every angle.
Apologies for the brief reply. It's still painful to write long messages on my Vita. Which I am relegated to using for the next few hours due to being out and about again.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3388
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Posted - 2014.05.17 23:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote: The progression system needs to be non linear (logarithmic), so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.)
This is completely crucial to keeping the difference between High SP characters and Low SP character from becoming game breaking. Typically speaking it is important that a new player can get a skill to level 3 fairly quickly, whereas level 4 and 5 can be trained later on to optimize performance but at a much steeper benefit/SP cost. This allows new players to skill into a role fairly quickly but gives veterans the ability to use their larger SP pool to give them a competitive edge (but not an insurmountable advantage).
I feel that the 5-Level system is pretty solid at its core be allowing players to choose how much on an SP investment they want to make. It does however have some issues and I will cover a few of those below.
I got a clarification from CCP Z. When he said he was getting rid of the 5 Level system, he just meant that he was changing the way it is presented from 5 levels of a single node, to 5 separate nodes. As far as I can tell, it will work the same as the 5 level system, but will simply be displayed differently.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Zion Shad
ZionTCD
Top Men.
2264
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Posted - 2014.05.18 00:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote: The progression system needs to be non linear (logarithmic), so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.)
This is completely crucial to keeping the difference between High SP characters and Low SP character from becoming game breaking. Typically speaking it is important that a new player can get a skill to level 3 fairly quickly, whereas level 4 and 5 can be trained later on to optimize performance but at a much steeper benefit/SP cost. This allows new players to skill into a role fairly quickly but gives veterans the ability to use their larger SP pool to give them a competitive edge (but not an insurmountable advantage).
I feel that the 5-Level system is pretty solid at its core be allowing players to choose how much on an SP investment they want to make. It does however have some issues and I will cover a few of those below. I got a clarification from CCP Z. When he said he was getting rid of the 5 Level system, he just meant that he was changing the way it is presented from 5 levels of a single node, to 5 separate nodes. As far as I can tell, it will work the same as the 5 level system, but will simply be displayed differently.
Well done Fox! Keep up the work man
CPM1 Hopeful
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2040
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Posted - 2014.05.18 05:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:
I got a clarification from CCP Z. When he said he was getting rid of the 5 Level system, he just meant that he was changing the way it is presented from 5 levels of a single node, to 5 separate nodes. As far as I can tell, it will work the same as the 5 level system, but will simply be displayed differently.
Well that's reasonable. I don't really mind the single node but if it makes it easier for new players to understand I'm all for it. I think perhaps that gives a better visual of progression, rather than filling up a single node.
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2045
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Posted - 2014.05.18 20:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:It sounds like CCP Z is overwhelmed with the volume of feedback on his progression system, so he will be relying on the CPM for feedback. I am not sure how many of my own concerns over the proposed progression system are valid, and how many stem from lack of information.
I think that if I boil my concerns down to their essence, and dispense with a fear of change, that I just want some assurance that the following principals will be adhered to in the new system.
Principals:
- The progression system needs to be non linear (logarithmic), so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.)
- Every skill point invested should provide a tangible benefit. (The current system breaks this rule. Think level 4 and 5 of Dropsuit Command.)
- No max number of skill points. (The fact that you never stop progressing in EVE is one of the reasons people stick with EVE so long, and why when they do leave they usually come back. Legion needs to maintain this as well.)
Do you agree with these principals? Does CCP Z agree with these principals?
Fox Gaden, Crash Gaden, Renier Gaden
Edit: I had to add the work GÇ£LogarithmicGÇ¥ because apparently people did not know what I was talking about when I said non-linear.
That looks like a very solid list.
0.02 ISK
Cross
SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System
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