DUST Search - Does CPM0 & CPM1 candidates agree with these principals?

The Black Jackal wrote:

Principals that I personally believe need to be followed are:

Ease of Understanding
Players need to know what, where, and how they are going to get to their goals. Defined by role, weapon choice, vehicle type, etc. Knowing where they are going, and how they will get there, and roughly how long that will take.

Allowing progression, and catch-up, without hampering other's gameplay
The ability to let newer players catch up is paramount, but not at the cost of pissing off your veteran players by not allowing them the same level of progression.

EVE and DUST do this by cross-role training, not throttling progression as you get higher. If you invest heavily into a role and 'master' it, you then move to another role. The person behind you only needs to invest the same amount of SP and / or time into that same role to get equivalent.

Make SP Invested and Skill Level the deciding factors.
Each Skill needs to give bonuses, as you stated above, and not simply unlock new gear, or act as a SP sink. In this way, SP makes a mark. However, it cannot be so strong that Player Skill is nullified by SP investment on it's own. There must be an uphill climb for the less-invested player. but one that can be overcome by player skill.

There are others, but for the purposes of this, those are the 3 core elements I believe make a good progression system.

EDIT: I will have it noted that my preference for progression is side-grades, not upgrades.

Progressing unlocks 'other' weapons, suits, roles, equipment that are neither better nor worse than the previous equipment, but simply play differently.

Plasma Rifle 1 - Has moderate ROF, Damage, Range

Plasma Rifle 2 - Has increased range, decreased ROF

Plasma Rifle 3 - Has decreased range, increased Damage

etc. so on and so forth.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3341	Posted - 2014.05.15 14:34:00 - [1] - Quote It sounds like CCP Z is overwhelmed with the volume of feedback on his progression system, so he will be relying on the CPM for feedback. I am not sure how many of my own concerns over the proposed progression system are valid, and how many stem from lack of information. I think that if I boil my concerns down to their essence, and dispense with a fear of change, that I just want some assurance that the following principals will be adhered to in the new system. Principals: - The progression system needs to be non linear, so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.) - Every skill point invested should provide a tangible benefit. (The current system breaks this rule. Think level 4 and 5 of Dropsuit Command.) - No max number of skill points. (The fact that you never stop progressing in EVE is one of the reasons people stick with EVE so long, and why when they do leave they usually come back. Legion needs to maintain this as well.) Do you agree with these principals? Does CCP Z agree with these principals? Fox Gaden, Crash Gaden, Renier Gaden Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3343	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:19:00 - [2] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Has the concept of a maximum number of skill points come up somewhere? If so, I must have missed it. Can you provide a link? No, thankfully it has not, but it is a guiding principal that they should continue to follow. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3351	Posted - 2014.05.15 20:36:00 - [3] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Also to stay eve is not linear needs to start a new character all over again and see that in order to get certain things you must train the things before it. One does not simply titan in a week. There is also the preconceptual NEED to train all related modules before hand and that by not training the needed modules for said platform often leads to our favorite section of the killboards the alods. I think by non-linear he meant that skills have diminishing returns, in terms of SP for benefit. If thats the case eve suffers the worst of it with 16x skills that barely pump up anything. If a x16 skill is worth it to you then train it. If it is not worth it to you, then donGÇÖt train it. The point is that a x16 skill is not going to give you an unfair advantage over a new player. (Actually with most 16x skills you will not be competing against new players.) What is worth it to a 3 year old account to train is different from what it is worth it for a 3 month old account to train. The point is that both the 3 month old account and the 3 year old account should have things that are worth training, while at the same time the 3 month old account should have a chance when competing against the 3 year old account, in any contest in which it is appropriate for a 3 month old account to be competing in. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3353	Posted - 2014.05.15 23:22:00 - [4] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: - The progression system needs to be non linear, so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.) The actual fact would be that new players can get competitive quicker with a linear system. If they are guided along a role, they don't drop extraneous, non-useful SP along the way. However, I do agree that being too restrictive on this could be detrimental. Not to the competitive level, but the fun, play your own way, style that DUST has been toting since Closed Beta and Before. What the hell are you talking about? I was talking about the expenditure of skill points over time, as in: a linear relationship of skill point benefit over time compared to a logarithmic curve where the benefit of skill points is high at first and decreases over time. By definition new players would never become competitive at all in a linear system unless benefits derived from skill points was completely meaningless. Non Linear system: Level 1(31,320 SP), Level 2 (93,250 SP), Level 3 (217,650 SP) Linear system: Level 1 (31,320 SP), Level 2 (31,320 SP), Level 3 (31,320 SP) Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3353	Posted - 2014.05.15 23:46:00 - [5] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Until we have many more details on the new Progression system (which is still in prototype phase) I wont comment on the overall system's effectiveness. My point was to boil down the principals that should be followed in any system they come up with, not a commentary on the system CCP Z proposed. I don't know enough about CCP Z's system to know if it follows these principals or not. I admit to being very disturbed over how badly you have misinterpreted my post. Did I really explain myself so poorly? I am usually good at explaining my thoughts. What are the core principals that you think need to be followed in any successful progression system? Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3359	Posted - 2014.05.16 12:08:00 - [6] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: tl:dr Extra SP means more roles, not better roles. When you put it that way, I have to concede the point. I was not looking at it from that angle. However, looking at it from that angle brings up another point. In that case CCP would have to create a lot more content if they go with a linier system, otherwise a Veteran player who caps out every week will run out of stuff to skill into. The Black Jackal wrote: Note: I took your Linear Progression ideal as a set series of steps you follow, not related to the amount of SP attained. Linear Progression rings - Straigh Line Progression - to me. It may be due to my previous experience, but that is how I interpreted it. Yeah, sorry. I think in graphs. I need to remind myself that others donGÇÖt. The Black Jackal wrote: Principals that I personally believe need to be followed are: Ease of Understanding Players need to know what, where, and how they are going to get to their goals. Defined by role, weapon choice, vehicle type, etc. Knowing where they are going, and how they will get there, and roughly how long that will take. Allowing progression, and catch-up, without hampering other's gameplay The ability to let newer players catch up is paramount, but not at the cost of pissing off your veteran players by not allowing them the same level of progression. EVE and DUST do this by cross-role training, not throttling progression as you get higher. If you invest heavily into a role and 'master' it, you then move to another role. The person behind you only needs to invest the same amount of SP and / or time into that same role to get equivalent. Make SP Invested and Skill Level the deciding factors. Each Skill needs to give bonuses, as you stated above, and not simply unlock new gear, or act as a SP sink. In this way, SP makes a mark. However, it cannot be so strong that Player Skill is nullified by SP investment on it's own. There must be an uphill climb for the less-invested player. but one that can be overcome by player skill. There are others, but for the purposes of this, those are the 3 core elements I believe make a good progression system. EDIT: I will have it noted that my preference for progression is side-grades, not upgrades. Progressing unlocks 'other' weapons, suits, roles, equipment that are neither better nor worse than the previous equipment, but simply play differently. Plasma Rifle 1 - Has moderate ROF, Damage, Range Plasma Rifle 2 - Has increased range, decreased ROF Plasma Rifle 3 - Has decreased range, increased Damage etc. so on and so forth. I agree with these principals. The only concern I have is that the Ease of Understanding not be taken too far. I like hand holding when I start a game and everything is new and overwhelming, but when I start feeling sure of myself, I would like to be able to let go of the comforting hand and strike out of my own. One of the things I enjoyed (like is was its own game) was trying to figure out how to scrounge up enough PG and CPU to get a non standard fit to work. It was like a puzzle. I think that standard fits such as making a Caldari Assault fit with shields and a Rail Rifle should be easy and obvious. However, I think that making non standard fits, such as fitting Kinetic Catalysers on an Amarr Heavy, or putting a Rep Tool on a Scout, should require some tweaking and extra skills to make it work. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3359	Posted - 2014.05.16 12:32:00 - [7] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: If its aimed at just Dust players then thats a very small target audience and the game is not going to grow. I agree with the rest of your post, but I wanted to address this one part. I think that Legion should be targeted at players who want a deeper, more complex, more thought provoking first person shooter. Technically a DUST veteran is not just someone who wants a more complex and thought provoking experience. A DUST veteran is also a masochist who wants that so much that they are willing to stick with a game that only partially delivers it, and endure untold hardships, for the faint dream that some day we will get the game we hoped for. If CCP delivers on the promise with Legion, it will not only appeal to the masochistic DUST vets, but will also appeal to all those 25 to 35 year olds who grow up playing FPS games and want something with more depth to it. They are not kids anymore. There are a lot of them out there. An entire generation. We donGÇÖt see a lot of them in DUST because most of them aren't masochist or hopeless dreamers. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3366	Posted - 2014.05.16 17:30:00 - [8] - Quote Yeah, I agree, Black Jackal made some very good points which made me look at things differently. I think it is good to have a discussion of principals. It helps to see the forest through the trees, so we donGÇÖt get so hung up on details when considering design proposals. It helps us figure out what is really important, and what we are only attached to out of familiarity. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3388	Posted - 2014.05.17 23:59:00 - [9] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: The progression system needs to be non linear (logarithmic), so that new players can become competitive against veterans fairly quickly. (The 5 level skill system was a diminishing returns non linear system. If the 5 level system is dropped it needs to be replaced with another non linear diminishing returns system.) This is completely crucial to keeping the difference between High SP characters and Low SP character from becoming game breaking. Typically speaking it is important that a new player can get a skill to level 3 fairly quickly, whereas level 4 and 5 can be trained later on to optimize performance but at a much steeper benefit/SP cost. This allows new players to skill into a role fairly quickly but gives veterans the ability to use their larger SP pool to give them a competitive edge (but not an insurmountable advantage). I feel that the 5-Level system is pretty solid at its core be allowing players to choose how much on an SP investment they want to make. It does however have some issues and I will cover a few of those below. I got a clarification from CCP Z. When he said he was getting rid of the 5 Level system, he just meant that he was changing the way it is presented from 5 levels of a single node, to 5 separate nodes. As far as I can tell, it will work the same as the 5 level system, but will simply be displayed differently. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.