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Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14930	Posted - 2014.05.12 18:08:00 - [1] - Quote Okay after some folks I talked with bringing up some good points here is one of my counter proposals. Have a gander. Keep purposed trees. Once player progresses significantly enough tutorial for advanced mode unlocks (appox. one full post generic role) In advanced mode the tree with the highest progression sets the pace and what can be unlocked item wise in other trees. The more similar the trees are the more of the primary tree's progression can unlock it. Many nodes will be greyed out because they're for that tree only in terms such as increasing the bonus for the Caldari Scout gets with cloaks maybe one type of node greyed out as outside trees have no business training that node up. Some nodes will still have pre-requisites; for example you cannot train ferroscale plates until regular armor plates are trained. Knowledgable Players can turn this on on their own in options at anytime before the tutorial. Players unwilling to deal with it can also turn it off. For example: Gallente Assault Tree doesn't feature a rail rifle the player as significantly progressed enough to unlocked breach plasma rifles. In advanced mode our Gallente Assault player would not have to train caldari assault to get his hands on the Rail Rifle HOWEVER because of the knock down he cannot train the Assault Rail Rifle which is found at the same level of progress as the Breach Plasma Rifle. Weapons in the scout tree are further away from unlocking as they disparity between the two trees are far greater. Disparity measures by first race, then role, the platform and finally operandi (vehicle vs infantry) featuring the absolute widest separation of progress. It may be also possible to put a negative score for opposed race and positive score for aligned race however that maybe getting to complicated but open to thoughts on this. Visually Amarr Scout is the furthest progressed [x][x][x][x][x] AScout [x][x][x][x][] CScout [x][x][x][][] MScout [x][x][][][] MPilot [x][x][x][][] GPilot [x][x][x][x][] APilot [x][x][][][] GAssault [x][x][x][][] AAssault [x][][][][] MLogistics [x][x][][][] GLogistics [x][x][x][][] ASentinel [x][x][][][] CCommando [x][][][][] CHAV [x][x][][][] ALAV [][][][][] MMAV CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Tweaksz Jaded Clones Jaded Coalition 91	Posted - 2014.05.12 18:13:00 - [2] - Quote +1 It would be a good way to counter the thought of being forced into roles, so it's win/win for newbies and vets. Pill Popping Madness!
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 481	Posted - 2014.05.12 20:08:00 - [3] - Quote I'm a big fan of the micromanagement needed on an elaborate skill sheet. I want skill trees for everything. Quick Draw L5 = pull out your sidearm 25% faster! There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Forlorn Destrier 2485	Posted - 2014.05.12 21:33:00 - [4] - Quote I'm thick headed. Can you explain it again like I'm a baby?
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 484	Posted - 2014.05.12 22:23:00 - [5] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: I'm thick headed. Can you explain it again like I'm a baby? I think it is supposed to be like those RPG gem trees. You have a few trees without branches, and some of them may have their gem slot filled to the top xxxxx while other trees only have a couple gems xx. Just copy Eve: Online's skill and fitting system. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Forlorn Destrier 2485	Posted - 2014.05.12 22:26:00 - [6] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Forlorn Destrier wrote: I'm thick headed. Can you explain it again like I'm a baby? I think it is supposed to be like those RPG gem trees. You have a few trees without branches, and some of them may have their gem slot filled to the top xxxxx while other trees only have a couple gems xx. Just copy Eve: Online's skill and fitting system. I think we should just mirror Eve's system pretty closely. I read a post the other day from someone who points how how the unique system in Eve (both skills and Tech1/2/3/faction) is so different and is one of the real reasons people stay, and I have to be honest he was straight up right. (no offense IWS, to your idea, that I still don't really get)
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 462	Posted - 2014.05.12 22:34:00 - [7] - Quote Seriously, can you draw it? (Or get an image with something that looks like it). It may be also possible to put a negative score for opposed race and positive score for aligned race however that maybe getting to complicated but open to thoughts on this. (EVE analogy) If i got this right, if i decided to use a drone as a primary system i would get bonus to train Gallente skills, but would get penalty to train Caldari ones like Caldari cruiser?
Forlorn Destrier 2487	Posted - 2014.05.12 22:43:00 - [8] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: Seriously, can you draw it? (Or get an image with something that looks like it). It may be also possible to put a negative score for opposed race and positive score for aligned race however that maybe getting to complicated but open to thoughts on this. (EVE analogy) If i got this right, if i decided to use a drone as a primary system i would get bonus to train Gallente skills, but would get penalty to train Caldari ones like Caldari cruiser? If your analogy is correct, then I do not like the idea. Eve's system is much more elegant and easy to understand, and I see no reason to deviate so far from the original game. Consistency will be key in this game succeeding, methinks.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14960	Posted - 2014.05.13 01:01:00 - [9] - Quote We're not copying eve's system unfortunately. Dust 514 and Legion are supposed to be lower barriers of entry to the eve universe and with the setting of a shooter environment the 5 node system doesn't work for us at all as it tries to force every node to be worth something. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2867	Posted - 2014.05.13 01:33:00 - [10] - Quote First thing... lets just get some information on what CCP Z is planning. Lets see what he's planning and then offer feedback on how to iterate on the system. I'm fine with removing the 1-5 system, nothing was ever worth having unless you took it to 5, it was boring anyways. My only point of feedback atm would be to design the system so that things are easy to get into and hard to master, just like in eve. If we have to go into assaults to unlock assault variants of weapons, that's fine... but make the root sections of each role's skill tree fairly low SP cost and easy to get into if we're just looking to cherry pick something here or there while allowing for many deep branches to reward specialization into certain parts of the tree.

Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2221	Posted - 2014.05.13 02:24:00 - [11] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: We're not copying eve's system unfortunately. Dust 514 and Legion are supposed to be lower barriers of entry to the eve universe and with the setting of a shooter environment the 5 node system doesn't work for us at all as it tries to force every node to be worth something. If they had a proper tutorial that wouldn't be a problem Also attracting isiots then asking them to do things like PC and FW is stupid in itself. Trying to attract casuals to become actual gamer on a game like this is silly, and holding their hand along the way surely won't help. Also, making it to where the advanced player can't do what he or she wants is equally bad, and will eventually bore them into leaving. Again, why can't you make a structure that is optional, have a open path as we do in EVE and dust for the vets, or just do ISIS? click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 750	Posted - 2014.05.13 02:28:00 - [12] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: My only point of feedback atm would be to design the system so that things are easy to get into and hard to master, just like in eve. That's fairly easy to do. e.g. Standard Assault Rifles may cost 1000 space-credits Advanced may cost 10000 Prototype may cost 100 000. Dust/Eve transfers
Chesyre Armundsen Thanes Of Dust 509	Posted - 2014.05.13 02:42:00 - [13] - Quote + 1 I like where this is going Mihi gravato Deus - "Let God lay the burden on me!" The Space Hippie
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14980	Posted - 2014.05.13 07:16:00 - [14] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: We're not copying eve's system unfortunately. Dust 514 and Legion are supposed to be lower barriers of entry to the eve universe and with the setting of a shooter environment the 5 node system doesn't work for us at all as it tries to force every node to be worth something. If they had a proper tutorial that wouldn't be a problem Also attracting isiots then asking them to do things like PC and FW is stupid in itself. Trying to attract casuals to become actual gamer on a game like this is silly, and holding their hand along the way surely won't help. Also, making it to where the advanced player can't do what he or she wants is equally bad, and will eventually bore them into leaving. Again, why can't you make a structure that is optional, have a open path as we do in EVE and dust for the vets, or just do ISIS? That's what the tree looks like though it looks like a ISIS layout mostly. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14980	Posted - 2014.05.13 07:19:00 - [15] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: My only point of feedback atm would be to design the system so that things are easy to get into and hard to master, just like in eve. That's fairly easy to do. e.g. Standard Assault Rifles may cost 1000 space-credits Advanced may cost 10000 Prototype may cost 100 000. Tiers are dead under CCP Z's model CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2622	Posted - 2014.05.13 07:19:00 - [16] - Quote Like I mentioned in this post: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2156488#post2156488 I would like to see that the skill tree remains as is today, but an UI overlay would guide new players into some pre-defined roles. This UI guide can be turned off to enable similar customization like we have today. The framework for this already exists in Dust 514, we have the "skill list" and the "graphical skill tree" that was supposed to be more accessible. Continue to build on this concept and we might have a winning solution (in less man hours than a complete re-vamp of the skill tree!). Wow! Yeah! Death to the wildcards, its just an indicator of a badly designed system, which in turn makes it even more convoluted to be honest. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Syeven Reed G0DS AM0NG MEN 627	Posted - 2014.05.13 07:20:00 - [17] - Quote I thought this was about trees with leaves, not skill trees.... made for an interesting read! Twitter MajLagSpike CPM Application
Kovinis Sparagas Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 386	Posted - 2014.05.13 08:59:00 - [18] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber: in EVE, DUST and others MMO I always tried and was proud to be jack of all trades (knows everything, but nothing at max lvl) So in DUST I am able to fit every gear it is in game (but only at standard level, and not adv, or pro) So your saying that CCP Z's progresion will FORCE me to specialize (because where will be not 5 lvl, and only 1 yes?), in this SANDOX game? I support EVE Legion, but the message was very badly delivered...
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 467	Posted - 2014.05.13 09:47:00 - [19] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: We're not copying eve's system unfortunately. Dust 514 and Legion are supposed to be lower barriers of entry to the eve universe and with the setting of a shooter environment the 5 node system doesn't work for us at all as it tries to force every node to be worth something. Not wanting to be a doomsdayer whiny *****, but if Z kills CHOICE (no matter what progression system, tree, role, whatever) than its just call of space warfield 2048, and the market its full of those for CCP investing resources in it. Or is this whole thing a way to presente such a crappy option that players will be happy without an FPS and dust can die once and for all with the player base consent?
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2226	Posted - 2014.05.13 09:55:00 - [20] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: We're not copying eve's system unfortunately. Dust 514 and Legion are supposed to be lower barriers of entry to the eve universe and with the setting of a shooter environment the 5 node system doesn't work for us at all as it tries to force every node to be worth something. If they had a proper tutorial that wouldn't be a problem Also attracting isiots then asking them to do things like PC and FW is stupid in itself. Trying to attract casuals to become actual gamer on a game like this is silly, and holding their hand along the way surely won't help. Also, making it to where the advanced player can't do what he or she wants is equally bad, and will eventually bore them into leaving. Again, why can't you make a structure that is optional, have a open path as we do in EVE and dust for the vets, or just do ISIS? That's what the tree looks like though it looks like a ISIS layout mostly. Dude, my point is I don't want to be forced to use ISIS (I don't use it because I know what to skill up to make my ship better). It should be there for the people who don't, but you shouldn't force everyone to use it. You know, because this is New Eden (the land of freedom of choice), and we're not all ******* idiots........... click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 493	Posted - 2014.05.13 13:31:00 - [21] - Quote I swear that the skill tree was not the barrier that held back new players. I'm absolutely serious that little kids are in this game running full proto...and old people prefer the classic RPG skill sheets, nobody worth keeping in New Eden was confused by the skill tree. The barrier was matchmaking. The barrier was putting 3 day-old mercs up against full squads of protostompers. I played a part in that, and I feel bad about it, but it was too random to predict when I need to bring my best gear and when it's going to be a milita turkey shoot. Some guys were hard to kill, others were too easy. You're NOT going to fix the vet vs n00b problem with a linear role-cert "tree." You're going to need to copy other competitive games if you want broad appeal. You need high-sec, PvE, and tiered rankings where some activities are sorted based on your statistical performance + skill certs. Yes, playing a low-sec (Diamond League) Titan boarding conquest matche will require a clever performance statistic to verify competencies before you can accept Alliance boarding party contracts....because they're not going to want a MLT n00b trying to board an enemy titan in the middle of a massive fleet battle. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2091	Posted - 2014.05.13 14:09:00 - [22] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: We're not copying eve's system unfortunately. Dust 514 and Legion are supposed to be lower barriers of entry to the eve universe and with the setting of a shooter environment the 5 node system doesn't work for us at all as it tries to force every node to be worth something. If they had a proper tutorial that wouldn't be a problem Also attracting isiots then asking them to do things like PC and FW is stupid in itself. Trying to attract casuals to become actual gamer on a game like this is silly, and holding their hand along the way surely won't help. Also, making it to where the advanced player can't do what he or she wants is equally bad, and will eventually bore them into leaving. Again, why can't you make a structure that is optional, have a open path as we do in EVE and dust for the vets, or just do ISIS? They can make a structure that is optional, it would be quick, easy and satisfy all concerned parties. If there has been a consistent message from peeps who have played DUST, it's that the skill & fitting systems have been rich and engaging. To throw that quality gameplay away needlessly does not serve Legion at all. Players don't need a NPE intro/tutorial/walkthrough to learn the basics of FPSs and any NPE that focused on what all shooter players already know would be a waste of time and resources. New Players need guidance to learn three primary things: 1) DUST/Legion Systems: Skills & fitting. 2) New Eden systems: Resources, ISK, manufacturing, market, corps. 3) Battle field awareness: How to read a DUST/Legion Battlefield, passive/active scanning, knowledge of ttk, weapon systems, vehicles, equipment, etc. It sounds like CCP is hoping that a simplified skill system will obviate the need for a quality tutorial. I say we'd get much more out of a rich, deep, engaging skill/fitting system and quality tutorial than CCP would need to put into it. A rich system and a quality tutorial is an amplifier for quality-of-gameplay through out a merc's career in New Eden, whereas a simplified generic-looking skill tree trades ease in the first week for lackluster gameplay over the merc's entire career. But we don't have to choose: start with the kiddie generic fps stuff and then give players the ability to flip a switch and turn on the glory that is New Eden's deep and engaging RPG system. PSN: RationalSpark
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 468	Posted - 2014.05.13 14:32:00 - [23] - Quote [Inside CCP HQ] Hey guys, i-¦ve got an idea! Let-¦s scrap Dut 514 because it-¦s a big failure. 4k players is not commercially viable, so let-¦s try a fresh approach. Product we have now? [Points do Dust powerpoint] TRASH [Powerpoint gif of Dust to recycle bin] Let-¦s scrap EVERYTHING we have and make a whole new game. All the feedback trough the years? Crap. If it were useful, we would have 1m players. Groudbreaking skill system with full customization, that we emulated poorly from EVE Online and only needed a few tweaks, and even like this is what distincts our product in the market from other games? TRASH. [Powerpoint of skill tree to recycle bin] We have to try something new, and something right. [Powerpoint of a big stack of green $] THAT-¦S the public we want. [Point to stereotype of fat kid with a headset on the couch holding a credit card and a mother screaming behind him]. Casual, for fun, money spending younglings that don-¦t know basic math and don-¦t want too mch complexity. Nor too litlle. They don-¦t want to think actually, and we-¦ll provide them just that. What are the games that make $$ ? Diablo III, WoW, GTA V. Do they have to worry about thinking too much? NO [owerpoint of a person with a headache] We have the IP for New Eden, so let-¦s bring a system that works for medieval fantasy, and transport it to a futuristic sci-fi! Its a sure deal, for they definetly don-¦t have futuristic skin packs and weaons to buy in Diablo nor Wow!!! [powerpoint of borat great success] Use the mechanics from a different company, to make a whole new game, on a genre that we know little about, using the money from the other game of the franchise, to gather a public that doesn-¦t like or other game while alienating part of the public we already have, in a saturated market, removing our only differential, but all this for PC!!!! Think bold my friends! How can this go wrong? [Powerpoint of **** yeah!] [Applauses]
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14989	Posted - 2014.05.13 15:05:00 - [24] - Quote Kovinis Sparagas wrote: Iron Wolf Saber: in EVE, DUST and others MMO I always tried and was proud to be jack of all trades (knows everything, but nothing at max lvl) So in DUST I am able to fit every gear it is in game (but only at standard level, and not adv, or pro) So your saying that CCP Z's progresion will FORCE me to specialize (because where will be not 5 lvl, and only 1 yes?), in this SANDOX game? No. I am an omnisoldier myself if at best it would enable us better by making available all the basic types of items off the bat fairly quickly and then allow mixing and matching between all the things we unlocked. Advanced mode was just a way to game the system without having to drill down another tree. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2092	Posted - 2014.05.13 15:13:00 - [25] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Kovinis Sparagas wrote: Iron Wolf Saber: in EVE, DUST and others MMO I always tried and was proud to be jack of all trades (knows everything, but nothing at max lvl) So in DUST I am able to fit every gear it is in game (but only at standard level, and not adv, or pro) So your saying that CCP Z's progresion will FORCE me to specialize (because where will be not 5 lvl, and only 1 yes?), in this SANDOX game? No. I am an omnisoldier myself if at best it would enable us better by making available all the basic types of items off the bat fairly quickly and then allow mixing and matching between all the things we unlocked. Advanced mode was just a way to game the system without having to drill down another tree. ".. a way to game the system without having to drill down another tree" ??? Holy **** you oughta be a politician - you have a natural ability to twist the truth into kittenpoop. I suppose by your analogy i shouldn't have learned to use a multimeter at age 7, i should've trained Electrical engineering to lvl 1 first. Not helpful, IWS. PSN: RationalSpark
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14989	Posted - 2014.05.13 15:23:00 - [26] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Kovinis Sparagas wrote: Iron Wolf Saber: in EVE, DUST and others MMO I always tried and was proud to be jack of all trades (knows everything, but nothing at max lvl) So in DUST I am able to fit every gear it is in game (but only at standard level, and not adv, or pro) So your saying that CCP Z's progresion will FORCE me to specialize (because where will be not 5 lvl, and only 1 yes?), in this SANDOX game? No. I am an omnisoldier myself if at best it would enable us better by making available all the basic types of items off the bat fairly quickly and then allow mixing and matching between all the things we unlocked. Advanced mode was just a way to game the system without having to drill down another tree. ".. a way to game the system without having to drill down another tree" ??? Holy **** you oughta be a politician - you have a natural ability to twist the truth into kittenpoop. I suppose by your analogy i shouldn't have learned to use a multimeter at age 7, i should've trained Electrical engineering to lvl 1 first. Not helpful, IWS. Multimeters by age 7 is fairly easy. Beeps = good wire, no beeps = bad wire. If it beeps one way and not the other? Diode! its like playing minecraft without the mining or crafting. The whole resistances and volts and things come much later. A more proper analogy to the idea is Scenario 1; cross training weapons in the same class "I know How Gunz work how different can be amarrian rifles be?" Gallente Soldier goes off and gets an high tech variant to blow up in his face. "Okay.... uhm can I start with something easier?" Gallente Soldier is then able to cross train a slightly easier to learn rifle instead. Scenario 2; cross training weapons in the same race. Gallente soldier " Okay it has a cyclotron its short ranged and spews plasma how different can it be from my rifle?" Fires Ion Pistol a bit. "I almost got the hang of this, bit weird but nothing major to adjust to" Scenario 3; cross training infantry with vehicles. Gallente soldier hops into caldari tank. ".... I have no effing idea what the hell I am doing here. Why are there 6 pedals but only 4 directions?" Gallente soldier hops into Gallente tank. "Oh this looks familiar; it's like driving my personal car at home with dozen of more buttons." CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2092	Posted - 2014.05.13 15:31:00 - [27] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Kovinis Sparagas wrote: Iron Wolf Saber: in EVE, DUST and others MMO I always tried and was proud to be jack of all trades (knows everything, but nothing at max lvl) So in DUST I am able to fit every gear it is in game (but only at standard level, and not adv, or pro) So your saying that CCP Z's progresion will FORCE me to specialize (because where will be not 5 lvl, and only 1 yes?), in this SANDOX game? No. I am an omnisoldier myself if at best it would enable us better by making available all the basic types of items off the bat fairly quickly and then allow mixing and matching between all the things we unlocked. Advanced mode was just a way to game the system without having to drill down another tree. ".. a way to game the system without having to drill down another tree" ??? Holy **** you oughta be a politician - you have a natural ability to twist the truth into kittenpoop. I suppose by your analogy i shouldn't have learned to use a multimeter at age 7, i should've trained Electrical engineering to lvl 1 first. Not helpful, IWS. Multimeters by age 7 is fairly easy. Beeps = good wire, no beeps = bad wire. If it beeps one way and not the other? Diode! its like playing minecraft without the mining or crafting. The whole resistances and volts and things come much later. A more proper analogy to the idea is Scenario 1; cross training weapons in the same class "I know How Gunz work how different can be amarrian rifles be?" Gallente Soldier goes off and gets an high tech variant to blow up in his face. "Okay.... uhm can I start with something easier?" Gallente Soldier is then able to cross train a slightly easier to learn rifle instead. Scenario 2; cross training weapons in the same race. Gallente soldier " Okay it has a cyclotron its short ranged and spews plasma how different can it be from my rifle?" Fires Ion Pistol a bit. "I almost got the hang of this, bit weird but nothing major to adjust to" Scenario 3; cross training infantry with vehicles. Gallente soldier hops into caldari tank. ".... I have no effing idea what the hell I am doing here. Why are there 6 pedals but only 4 directions?" Gallente soldier hops into Gallente tank. "Oh this looks familiar; it's like driving my personal car at home with dozen of more buttons." You confirmed my point exactly. Learning to use a multimeter leads to an understanding of electricity and electronics later. There is no prerequisire IRL unlike your gamey, artificial, transparent, immersion-breaking system. PSN: RationalSpark
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14989	Posted - 2014.05.13 15:33:00 - [28] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: You confirmed my point exactly. Learning to use a multimeter leads to an understanding of electricity and electronics later. There is no prerequisire IRL unlike your gamey, artificial, transparent, immersion-breaking system. Then go fly an F-18 and land it on a carrier. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 470	Posted - 2014.05.13 15:45:00 - [29] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: You confirmed my point exactly. Learning to use a multimeter leads to an understanding of electricity and electronics later. There is no prerequisire IRL unlike your gamey, artificial, transparent, immersion-breaking system. Then go fly an F-18 and land it on a carrier; In real life without prior knowledge. Here Ill even give you the keys after you take a jet exhaust sample. If you know how to fly a MIG, it-¦s better than knowing how to fly a 747, that it-¦s way better than knowing how to play a mono-engine, tt it-¦s better than being an expert in flight simulator. Pre-reqs are important, no doubt about it. It-¦s not because i know how to pilot a tank that i know how to do the same with an aircraft. But cmon, if i have training in F-18 combat simulators i-¦ll have some knowledge of the working of a MIG, a GRIPEN and a 474
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 495	Posted - 2014.05.13 16:07:00 - [30] - Quote In the future, interface protocols are uploaded to your cybernetic implants. It's covered in New Eden lore. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3243	Posted - 2014.05.13 16:24:00 - [31] - Quote I think that if we try to adapt CCP ZGÇÖs item progression trees to fit the complexity and choice that veteran players are demanding, that we will get an awkward confusing system. I have concluded that it would be better to have CCP ZGÇÖs simple and elegant system as an opt out overlay that players use be default when they start the game, but have the ability to turn off once they learn how to do so. This way the default tree does not have to be complicated by accommodating every eventuality such as wanting to use a Shotgun on an Assault suit. You don't even have to include all the skills and items in it. Just make a tree for each of the most common roles. When the default tree overlay system is shut off, you should gain access to a much less restrictive skill system that does not follow role progression and does not hold your hand. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3243	Posted - 2014.05.13 16:35:00 - [32] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: We're not copying eve's system unfortunately. Dust 514 and Legion are supposed to be lower barriers of entry to the eve universe and with the setting of a shooter environment the 5 node system doesn't work for us at all as it tries to force every node to be worth something. It is not the 5 level skills that cause a problem there, it is trying to force Item unlocks into a 5 node skill tree when there are no bonuses attached that is the problem. It is having levels in the node that have no benefit that is the problem. If you separate items from skills, and keep the 5 levels for the skill while moving the item unlocks to a single level node system, you can come up with a system that has all the strengths of the EVE system, but works for an FPS. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2841	Posted - 2014.05.13 17:31:00 - [33] - Quote Umm no, sorry IWS, either I'm too tired or your not very good at explaining but this sounds incredibly complicated. There are things about Z's system I like 1) Making the tree Role Specalization Centric 2) Removing the 5 levels per node system 3) Tiericde 4) Cutting the # of useless/filler nodes With your solution I feel like your saying If I want to skill into RRs, which are in level 3, I must have at least level 3 elsewhere. But do I still need to progress up that tree? Do I start halfway up it or what? I don't think Skill Systems need to be almagamated into a SINGLE tree, maintain the number of trees we have at the moment. Then from there canabalise Z's idea into each category. So for example for nearly 3-4 skill levels we have no factionalised suits, why not do the same with weapons and equipment. I'd love to get my hands on a Minmatar Nanohive, designed to distribute it's nanite reserve as quickly as possible, or hybrid amarr hives, or gallante hives that provide as much healing per pulse as possible. Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56 Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 3245	Posted - 2014.05.13 17:51:00 - [34] - Quote Default System: Use the Item Progression tree that CCP Z proposed. DonGÇÖt add any wild cards or any complicated hybridisation. Keep it simple. But add optional 5 level skills like leaves on the skill tree, attached to each item, that give bonuses for that item. If there are no good bonuses, donGÇÖt add leaves (skills) to that node. Advanced System: This would be an open list system with only sensible prerequisites. (# Items, Skills): #Assault Rifle \|_ Assault Rifle Operations [1 to 5] \| \|__ * Assault Rile Proficiency [1 to 5] \|_* Rapid Reload [1 to 5] \|_* Power Grid efficacy [1 to 5] \|_* CPU efficacy [1 to 5] \|_# Tactical Assault Rifle \|_# Breach Assault Rifle \|_# Burst Assault Rifle #Nano Hive \|_# Compact Nano Hive \|_# Triage Nano Hive # Medium Frame Dropsuit .\|_# Gallente Medium Frame Dropsuit .. \|_ # Gallente Assault Dropsuit .. \| \|__* Gallente Assault Dropsuit Operation [1 to 5] .. \|_ # Gallente Logistics Dropsuit .. \| \|__* Gallente Logistics Dropsuit Operation [1 to 5] * Engineering [1 to 5] * Electronics [1 to 5] * Hacking [1 to 5] * Profile Dampening [1 to 5] There is only so much I can do to draw a picture using ASKII text and without being able to use tab spacing, but that is the general idea. Instead of a few big trees, it would have a lot of little bushes. Also, the number of Skill Points needed to unlock an Item Node should be proportional to the Meta Level of the item. So while skilling into the Sniper Rifle node would unlock access to both the Tactical Sniper Rifle node and the Charged Sniper Rifle node, unlocking the Charged Sniper Rifle should require more points than unlocking the Tactical Sniper Rifle, because the Charged Sniper rifle will be a higher Meta Level than the Tactical. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Natu Nobilis DUST BRASIL S.A Caps and Mercs 472	Posted - 2014.05.13 18:41:00 - [35] - Quote Tiercide has been under discussion since 2011. What amuzes me is that a lot of the dicussions we-¦re having here, were alrady discussed during the beta, were not implemented, and now instead of going with the feedback, they decide a while different way. At least present the proposed way in a manner we can give feedback instead of conjecturing and go in circles. Every skill should give a bonus to something Every LvL 3 should unlock something bigger Those who specialize in Lvl 5 are trading time for efficiency, and instead of using 4 weapons use a really good one.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 14999	Posted - 2014.05.13 19:10:00 - [36] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: My only point of feedback atm would be to design the system so that things are easy to get into and hard to master, just like in eve. That's fairly easy to do. e.g. Standard Assault Rifles may cost 1000 space-credits Advanced may cost 10000 Prototype may cost 100 000. Tiers are dead under CCP Z's model . CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1965	Posted - 2014.05.13 19:19:00 - [37] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: We're not copying eve's system unfortunately. Dust 514 and Legion are supposed to be lower barriers of entry to the eve universe and with the setting of a shooter environment the 5 node system doesn't work for us at all as it tries to force every node to be worth something. This is a catastrophic mistake. The skill system isn't a barrier to entry, the poor UI and absolute abomination of a tutorial is. As is throwing new players into matches with Vets so quickly. Is the CPM fighting this tooth-and-nail? Or are you guys just nodding? CCP Shanghai cannot successfully compete in the "assessible shooter" category against publishers with much more experience, much bigger teams, and huge budgets. If it tries to expand the niche of a deep thinking-man's shooter I think it can do very well. There is no competition in that market, and there are a lot of players that want a deep FPS/RPG experience. Best PvE idea ever!
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1965	Posted - 2014.05.13 19:21:00 - [38] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Tiers are dead under CCP Z's model . Is CCP Z the fountainhead of all these terrible ideas or just the mouthpiece? Best PvE idea ever!


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