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[Suggestion] Shields and Armor my view on how to balance

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BL4CKST4R warravens Final Resolution. 2605	Posted - 2014.04.30 11:48:00 - [1] - Quote Shields are to be low HP rep tanked suits, while armor should be high HP stand and deliver suits. Most people counter the "imbalance" by saying shields need more HP, but in fact what shields need is to be able to repair more while not relying on dual tanking to be viable. Shields: Move energizers/rechargers to lows and buff them Regulators? IDK Make shield repair constant keep shield depleted delay Reduce onboard shield repair by 3x Modules: Move damage modifiers to lows Add module here to avoid dual tanking from armor All penalties remain the same and ignoring fitting costs (although important) SHIELDS Shield extenders: Complex: 68 Enhanced: 52 Basic: 40 Shield energizers: >Low slot< Complex: 65% Enhanced: 55% Basic: 45% Shield rechargers: >Low slot< Complex: 50% Enhanced: 40% Basic: 35% ARMOR Armor plates: Complex: 135 Enhanced: 104 Basic: 80 Ferroscale plates: Complex: 104 Enhanced: 80 Basic: 62 Reactive plates: Complex: 80 HP/s: ??? Enhanced: 62 HP/s: ?? Basic: 47 HP/s: ? Armor repairers: Complex:??? Enhanced: ?? Basic: ? Gallente base armor repair: Light:??? Medium:?? Heavy:? Armor repair values have not been adjusted as they should fall slightly below shield repair values while giving an equal or slightly higher amount of HP, I.E a Gallente rep tanked suit should have around 570-650 EHP with a repair of around 22-30 and also slightly slower speed. BUILDS Assault ck.0 >178 Base Shields (-15% HP) >120 Base Armor >Base shield repair of 10 HP/s >Shield repair 35.2 HP/s = 3x complex energizers (if my math is correct) although I want the end result of shield repair to be about the same as it is now, except constant >Depleted delay 7 or 10 (I cant remember + game offline) >272 HP from 4x complex shield extenders >EHP: 570 Assault gk.0 >210 Base armor >120 Base shields >Base armor repair: ?? >Armor repair ??? HP/s (1x complex) >405 HP from 3x complex plates -12% speed >EHP: 735 Assault mk.0 Would require a buff to its shield repair and depleted delay for it to be viable in this scenario Assault ak.0 I am lazy Feel free to agree or disagree this is just how I see things. For the Federation!
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic 942	Posted - 2014.04.30 13:34:00 - [2] - Quote Reducing on board shields repair would ultimately destroy the only reason to run shields in the first place. Plus rechargers/energizers would now be completely worthless. I see you don't want to change HP on Shields extenders, that is apparently not an option. So if we throw that out here's what I would change: Buff shield regulators and shield rechargers/energizers. Ideally these have to be worth more than pure HP and currently they aren't. Fix scaling on shield extenders. Your numbers are fine, we can go with those. Fix fitting costs on Shield extenders and rechargers/energizers. Why are these stupidly high in the first place? Hard to run a shield tank when you can't fit crap in comparison to an armor tank. Armor should come nowhere close to shields in terms of repair (unless they run tons of reppers.) They have double the hp but you feel they need a comparable rep rate too?
BL4CKST4R warravens Final Resolution. 2608	Posted - 2014.04.30 16:05:00 - [3] - Quote Galvan Nized wrote: Reducing on board shields repair would ultimately destroy the only reason to run shields in the first place. Plus rechargers/energizers would now be completely worthless. I see you don't want to change HP on Shields extenders, that is apparently not an option. So if we throw that out here's what I would change: Buff shield regulators and shield rechargers/energizers. Ideally these have to be worth more than pure HP and currently they aren't. Fix scaling on shield extenders. Your numbers are fine, we can go with those. Fix fitting costs on Shield extenders and rechargers/energizers. Why are these stupidly high in the first place? Hard to run a shield tank when you can't fit crap in comparison to an armor tank. Armor should come nowhere close to shields in terms of repair (unless they run tons of reppers.) They have double the hp but you feel they need a comparable rep rate too? Don't forget they have alternative ways to heal, shields do not. Thus would ultimately mean that armor, on average, would rep better than shields. for shields you will rep at the same rate as now and without a delay, but you will need energizers which sacrifice no tank except dual tank. So I don't know what you mean about destroying the repair when in fact it is getting buffed in a way. As for armor I mean a rep tanked suit, a rep tanked suit would have slightly less repair similar for almost equal hp and less speed. Rep tanking should be viable for armor to with different drawbacks. Outside rep sources are highly uncommon so I never consider them. For the Federation!
Mr m4gic XSKvLLX 51	Posted - 2014.04.30 16:48:00 - [4] - Quote my brain cant make heads nor tails of what you saying, I think they should stop trying to balance everything and have some major unbalancing, it surprises me that they have not figured out what makes a good FPS, stop trying to make IT FAIR make the weapons and armour do what they are supposed to do, i wanna know im in a heavy suit and FEEL indestructible, and SLOW, whats the point in having all theses amazing different things if there all balanced, to the point where i cant tell the difference, and i might say tht gaining wp in the game should be got rid of, and it should be done exactly like eveonline with the training ques, then it would tie in better with eve online and the whole mercenary bit by making money your purpose of play. Have you seen my baseball??
Mr m4gic XSKvLLX 51	Posted - 2014.04.30 16:54:00 - [5] - Quote oh yh and plzzzzz ccp give us some trophies or achievements just to give me some reason to play. Have you seen my baseball??
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic 948	Posted - 2014.04.30 17:29:00 - [6] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Galvan Nized wrote: RedUvimhing on board shields repair would ultimately destroy the only reason to run shields in the first place. Plus rechargers/energizers would now be completely worthless. I see you don't want to change HP on Shields extenders, that is apparently not an option. So if we throw that out here's what I would change: Buff shield regulators and shield rechargers/energizers. Ideally these have to be worth more than pure HP and currently they aren't. Fix scaling on shield extenders. Your numbers are fine, we can go with those. Fix fitting costs on Shield extenders and rechargers/energizers. Why are these stupidly high in the first place? Hard to run a shield tank when you can't fit crap in comparison to an armor tank. Armor should come nowhere close to shields in terms of repair (unless they run tons of reppers.) They have double the hp but you feel they need a comparable rep rate too? Don't forget they have alternative ways to heal, shields do not. Thus would ultimately mean that armor, on average, would rep better than shields. for shields you will rep at the same rate as now and without a delay, but you will need energizers which sacrifice no tank except dual tank. So I don't know what you mean about destroying the repair when in fact it is getting buffed in a way. As for armor I mean a rep tanked suit, a rep tanked suit would have slightly less repair similar for almost equal hp and less speed. Rep tanking should be viable for armor to with different drawbacks. Outside rep sources are highly uncommon so I never consider them. Energizers work as a percent of shield regen so any reduction to shield regen rate hits then doubly hard. I might be misunderstanding but you say you want to reduce "onboard shield repair by 3x." That's huge. For example, let's say shield regen is 100 (arguments and simplicity sake.) Energizers currently give 45% increase to shield regen rate (pro energizers are way too expensive to be used so disregard them.) Thus your shield regen is now 145. Reducing shield delay by 3x means shield regen is now 33. So with one energizer at +55%, you now have 51. That's a gigantic Nerf...even if you make energizers 100%, that still makes regen 66 with 1, and 2 is now 123 (after stacking penalty.) So 2 energizers aren't worth even 1 current energizer. Again, huge Nerf. I get that you're trying to discourage dual tanking, but what exactly is discouraging armor tankers from doing the dual tanking?
The-Errorist 658	Posted - 2014.04.30 17:52:00 - [7] - Quote If shield rechargers and energizes were moved to low slot to prevent dual tanking on shield tanked suits, armor repairers would also have to be moved on high slots to prevent armor based suits from dual tanking too. Anyway, I have no stong feelings one way or the other about such changes. Quote: Regulators? IDK Make shield repair constant keep shield depleted delay Reduce onboard shield repair by 3x I agree with you that shield modules in general are too costly in fitting space. I also have no strong feelings for or against making shield repair constant. Reducing on-board shield repair of suits by 3 would defeat the point of using shields, since they are supposed to be the tank type that recharges quickly. Shield HP doesn't necessarily a buff, what needs a buff is the enhanced shield extenders. Shield extenders are 2(11) at standard, 3(11) at advanced, and 6(11) at prototype, which is inconsistent. Enhanced shield extenders need to give 44 HP which is 4(11), which would make the HP progression consistent like shield extenders for vehicles and armor plates for both vehicles and infantry. Thread about that here. Shield rechargers and energizers might need a small buff, but the stats you're asking for aren't right. Shield energizers: Proposed/Current Complex: 65%/60% Enhanced: 55%/45% Basic: 45%/25% The current shield enegizers increase by ~20% per tier and what you're asking for would make the gap 10% which I don't approve of. What I do like though, is that you want the complex enegizer to give 65% which would make the % progression consistent for the current energizers. Shield rechargers: Proposed/Current Complex: 50%/42% Enhanced: 40%/25% Basic: 35%/15% Both your proposed stats and the current stats don't have a consistent progression between tiers. What I think it should be is: Complex: 45% Enhanced: 30% Basic: 15%
BL4CKST4R warravens Final Resolution. 2611	Posted - 2014.04.30 19:41:00 - [8] - Quote Galvan Nized wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Galvan Nized wrote: RedUvimhing on board shields repair would ultimately destroy the only reason to run shields in the first place. Plus rechargers/energizers would now be completely worthless. I see you don't want to change HP on Shields extenders, that is apparently not an option. So if we throw that out here's what I would change: Buff shield regulators and shield rechargers/energizers. Ideally these have to be worth more than pure HP and currently they aren't. Fix scaling on shield extenders. Your numbers are fine, we can go with those. Fix fitting costs on Shield extenders and rechargers/energizers. Why are these stupidly high in the first place? Hard to run a shield tank when you can't fit crap in comparison to an armor tank. Armor should come nowhere close to shields in terms of repair (unless they run tons of reppers.) They have double the hp but you feel they need a comparable rep rate too? Don't forget they have alternative ways to heal, shields do not. Thus would ultimately mean that armor, on average, would rep better than shields. for shields you will rep at the same rate as now and without a delay, but you will need energizers which sacrifice no tank except dual tank. So I don't know what you mean about destroying the repair when in fact it is getting buffed in a way. As for armor I mean a rep tanked suit, a rep tanked suit would have slightly less repair similar for almost equal hp and less speed. Rep tanking should be viable for armor to with different drawbacks. Outside rep sources are highly uncommon so I never consider them. Energizers work as a percent of shield regen so any reduction to shield regen rate hits then doubly hard. I might be misunderstanding but you say you want to reduce "onboard shield repair by 3x." That's huge. For example, let's say shield regen is 100 (arguments and simplicity sake.) Energizers currently give 45% increase to shield regen rate (pro energizers are way too expensive to be used so disregard them.) Thus your shield regen is now 145. Reducing shield delay by 3x means shield regen is now 33. So with one energizer at +55%, you now have 51. That's a gigantic Nerf...even if you make energizers 100%, that still makes regen 66 with 1, and 2 is now 123 (after stacking penalty.) So 2 energizers aren't worth even 1 current energizer. Again, huge Nerf. I get that you're trying to discourage dual tanking, but what exactly is discouraging armor tankers from doing the dual tanking? Remember I said shields would regenerate constantly, I.E no delay. Reducing the Caldari shields by 3x would give 10 hp/s With 3 complex shield energizers you get 206% increase to repair. That adds up to around 31.8 shield repair per second discounting the 10% bonus of recharging level 5. So you have around 472 HP that can be repaired in 15 seconds with no delay. This is huge, not only that but it also gives you a natural 7.5-10% damage reduction because it repairs per second. As for armor I did say a mod should be made to discourage dual tanking, although dual tanking gets a huge hit since using shields without energizers means you will rep extremely slow. For the Federation!
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic 948	Posted - 2014.04.30 19:52:00 - [9] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Galvan Nized wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Galvan Nized wrote: RedUvimhing on board shields repair would ultimately destroy the only reason to run shields in the first place. Plus rechargers/energizers would now be completely worthless. I see you don't want to change HP on Shields extenders, that is apparently not an option. So if we throw that out here's what I would change: Buff shield regulators and shield rechargers/energizers. Ideally these have to be worth more than pure HP and currently they aren't. Fix scaling on shield extenders. Your numbers are fine, we can go with those. Fix fitting costs on Shield extenders and rechargers/energizers. Why are these stupidly high in the first place? Hard to run a shield tank when you can't fit crap in comparison to an armor tank. Armor should come nowhere close to shields in terms of repair (unless they run tons of reppers.) They have double the hp but you feel they need a comparable rep rate too? Don't forget they have alternative ways to heal, shields do not. Thus would ultimately mean that armor, on average, would rep better than shields. for shields you will rep at the same rate as now and without a delay, but you will need energizers which sacrifice no tank except dual tank. So I don't know what you mean about destroying the repair when in fact it is getting buffed in a way. As for armor I mean a rep tanked suit, a rep tanked suit would have slightly less repair similar for almost equal hp and less speed. Rep tanking should be viable for armor to with different drawbacks. Outside rep sources are highly uncommon so I never consider them. Energizers work as a percent of shield regen so any reduction to shield regen rate hits then doubly hard. I might be misunderstanding but you say you want to reduce "onboard shield repair by 3x." That's huge. For example, let's say shield regen is 100 (arguments and simplicity sake.) Energizers currently give 45% increase to shield regen rate (pro energizers are way too expensive to be used so disregard them.) Thus your shield regen is now 145. Reducing shield delay by 3x means shield regen is now 33. So with one energizer at +55%, you now have 51. That's a gigantic Nerf...even if you make energizers 100%, that still makes regen 66 with 1, and 2 is now 123 (after stacking penalty.) So 2 energizers aren't worth even 1 current energizer. Again, huge Nerf. I get that you're trying to discourage dual tanking, but what exactly is discouraging armor tankers from doing the dual tanking? Remember I said shields would regenerate constantly, I.E no delay. Reducing the Caldari shields by 3x would give 10 hp/s With 3 complex shield energizers you get 206% increase to repair. That adds up to around 31.8 shield repair per second discounting the 10% bonus of recharging level 5. So you have around 472 HP that can be repaired in 15 seconds with no delay. This is huge, not only that but it also gives you a natural 7.5-10% damage reduction because it repairs per second. As for armor I did say a mod should be made to discourage dual tanking, although dual tanking gets a huge hit since using shields without energizers means you will rep extremely slow. You clearly state to keep shield depletion delay, so you are not constantly repping. Again a huge hit to shield regen. One energizer now Is 43.5. That one second delay is pretty meaningless. Dual tanking armor tankers couldn't care less if their shields rep slowly, it's more buffer. They stack plates now, don't need a repper because the alternative ways to heal.
BL4CKST4R warravens Final Resolution. 2611	Posted - 2014.04.30 20:02:00 - [10] - Quote Galvan Nized wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Galvan Nized wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Galvan Nized wrote: RedUvimhing on board shields repair would ultimately destroy the only reason to run shields in the first place. Plus rechargers/energizers would now be completely worthless. I see you don't want to change HP on Shields extenders, that is apparently not an option. So if we throw that out here's what I would change: Buff shield regulators and shield rechargers/energizers. Ideally these have to be worth more than pure HP and currently they aren't. Fix scaling on shield extenders. Your numbers are fine, we can go with those. Fix fitting costs on Shield extenders and rechargers/energizers. Why are these stupidly high in the first place? Hard to run a shield tank when you can't fit crap in comparison to an armor tank. Armor should come nowhere close to shields in terms of repair (unless they run tons of reppers.) They have double the hp but you feel they need a comparable rep rate too? Don't forget they have alternative ways to heal, shields do not. Thus would ultimately mean that armor, on average, would rep better than shields. for shields you will rep at the same rate as now and without a delay, but you will need energizers which sacrifice no tank except dual tank. So I don't know what you mean about destroying the repair when in fact it is getting buffed in a way. As for armor I mean a rep tanked suit, a rep tanked suit would have slightly less repair similar for almost equal hp and less speed. Rep tanking should be viable for armor to with different drawbacks. Outside rep sources are highly uncommon so I never consider them. Energizers work as a percent of shield regen so any reduction to shield regen rate hits then doubly hard. I might be misunderstanding but you say you want to reduce "onboard shield repair by 3x." That's huge. For example, let's say shield regen is 100 (arguments and simplicity sake.) Energizers currently give 45% increase to shield regen rate (pro energizers are way too expensive to be used so disregard them.) Thus your shield regen is now 145. Reducing shield delay by 3x means shield regen is now 33. So with one energizer at +55%, you now have 51. That's a gigantic Nerf...even if you make energizers 100%, that still makes regen 66 with 1, and 2 is now 123 (after stacking penalty.) So 2 energizers aren't worth even 1 current energizer. Again, huge Nerf. I get that you're trying to discourage dual tanking, but what exactly is discouraging armor tankers from doing the dual tanking? Remember I said shields would regenerate constantly, I.E no delay. Reducing the Caldari shields by 3x would give 10 hp/s With 3 complex shield energizers you get 206% increase to repair. That adds up to around 31.8 shield repair per second discounting the 10% bonus of recharging level 5. So you have around 472 HP that can be repaired in 15 seconds with no delay. This is huge, not only that but it also gives you a natural 7.5-10% damage reduction because it repairs per second. As for armor I did say a mod should be made to discourage dual tanking, although dual tanking gets a huge hit since using shields without energizers means you will rep extremely slow. You clearly state to keep shield depletion delay, so you are not constantly repping. Again a huge hit to shield regen. One energizer now Is 43.5. That one second delay is pretty meaningless. Dual tanking armor tankers couldn't care less if their shields rep slowly, it's more buffer. They stack plates now, don't need a repper because the alternative ways to heal. if your shields aren't depleted to 0 it's constant. And as I said there should be a mod to stop dual tanking for armkr. For the Federation!

The-Errorist 659	Posted - 2014.04.30 21:58:00 - [11] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: if your shields aren't depleted to 0 it's constant. And as I said there should be a mod to stop dual tanking for armkr. You should be been more clear from the start about what you meant by having a constant shield repair while keeping the delay. When I read it, I thought you meant that you want shields to not repair itself in quick chunks as it does now, but have a consistent repair rate when it starts to repair. The way you wrote it didn't make it seem like you wanted shields to only have a depleted recharge delay, so it only stops recharging when shields are depleted. If thats what you want, that's even more reason not to buff shield HP of shield extenders.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2231	Posted - 2014.04.30 22:52:00 - [12] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: To make dual tanking for armor dropsuits less appealing, armor repair modules could be moved to high slots as I said before in post #7. Or move armor plates to the highs. That way you'd have to choose between high shield HP or high armor HP. Cthulu Ftaghn!
The-Errorist 659	Posted - 2014.04.30 23:29:00 - [13] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: The-Errorist wrote: To make dual tanking for armor dropsuits less appealing, armor repair modules could be moved to high slots as I said before in post #7. Or move armor plates to the highs. That way you'd have to choose between high shield HP or high armor HP. Moving armor plates to highs would make shield tankers become weird armor tankers and armor tankers would only be able to put at most 3 plates, which would just break how everything works. Moving armor repairers to high slots if shield rechargers and energizers where moved to low slots, would be the best way to discourage armor tankers from dual tanking, while allowing them to use all of their slots for armor tanking.
The-Errorist 664	Posted - 2014.05.01 18:59:00 - [14] - Quote Here is my attempt at compromising with what you said you want in your thread: Remove shield delay, so that there is only a depleted shield recharge delay. Reduce base shield recharge rates of suits by 30%. Move shield rechargers and energizers to low slots. Move armor repairers to high slots. These changes would allow all of a suit's slots to be used for 1 particular tank and discourage non-Minmatar suits from dual tanking. [Shield modules] [Shield energizers]: Proposed/Current Complex: 65/60% Enhanced: 45/45% Basic: 25/25% This 5% buff to the prototype module would make the shield energizers increase by a flat 20% per tier. [Shield rechargers]: Proposed/Current Complex: 45%/42% Enhanced: 30%/25% Basic: 15%/15% This buff the prototype module by 3% and made shield rechargers increase by a flat 15% per tier. [Shield extenders]: Proposed/Current Complex: 66/66 HP Enhanced: 44/33 HP Basic: 22/22 HP This 11 HP buff to the advanced module makes the shield extenders increase by a flat 22 HP per tier. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=127230 [Armor plates]: Current Complex: 135 HP Enhanced: 110 HP Basic: 85 HP Difference is 25 HP between tiers. [Ferroscale plates]: Proposed/Current Complex: 85/75 HP Enhanced: 60/50 HP Basic: 35 HP Difference is 25 HP between tiers, the gap between regular plates is 50 HP instead of 60. [Reactive plates]: Proposed/Current Complex: 70 HP & 2 HP/s / 60 HP & 2 HP/s Enhanced: 45 @ 2 HP/s / 40 HP @ 1 HP/s Basic: 20 @ 2 HP/s / 25 HP @ 1 HP/s The gap between tiers is 25, the gap between regular plates is 65. [Armor repairers]: Proposted/Current Complex: 6/5 Enhanced: 4/3 Basic: 2 2 HP/s between tiers [Gallente base armor repair] Current Light: 3 Medium: 2 Heavy: 1
BL4CKST4R warravens Final Resolution. 2616	Posted - 2014.05.01 23:52:00 - [15] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Here is my attempt at compromising with what you said you want in your thread: Remove shield delay, so that there is only a depleted shield recharge delay. Reduce base shield recharge rates of suits by 30%. Move shield rechargers and energizers to low slots. Move armor repairers to high slots. These changes would allow all of a suit's slots to be used for 1 particular tank and discourage non-Minmatar suits from dual tanking. [Shield modules] [Shield energizers]: Proposed/Current Complex: 65/60% Enhanced: 45/45% Basic: 25/25% This 5% buff to the prototype module would make the shield energizers increase by a flat 20% per tier. [Shield rechargers]: Proposed/Current Complex: 45%/42% Enhanced: 30%/25% Basic: 15%/15% This buff the prototype module by 3% and made shield rechargers increase by a flat 15% per tier. [Shield extenders]: Proposed/Current Complex: 66/66 HP Enhanced: 44/33 HP Basic: 22/22 HP This 11 HP buff to the advanced module makes the shield extenders increase by a flat 22 HP per tier. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=127230 [Armor plates]: Current Complex: 135 HP Enhanced: 110 HP Basic: 85 HP Difference is 25 HP between tiers. [Ferroscale plates]: Proposed/Current Complex: 85/75 HP Enhanced: 60/50 HP Basic: 35 HP Difference is 25 HP between tiers, the gap between regular plates is 50 HP instead of 60. [Reactive plates]: Proposed/Current Complex: 70 HP & 2 HP/s / 60 HP & 2 HP/s Enhanced: 45 @ 2 HP/s / 40 HP @ 1 HP/s Basic: 20 @ 2 HP/s / 25 HP @ 1 HP/s The gap between tiers is 25, the gap between regular plates is 65. [Armor repairers]: Proposted/Current Complex: 6/5 Enhanced: 4/3 Basic: 2 2 HP/s between tiers [Gallente base armor repair] Current Light: 3 Medium: 2 Heavy: 1 That 30% Shield shield repair reduction is way to low at max level that's is over 60 Hp/s second that is way to high with energizers. that turns shield suits into mini rep tanked madrugars. That's around 15% hp per second, a madrugar reps at just under 10%. For the Federation!
The-Errorist 664	Posted - 2014.05.02 05:01:00 - [16] - Quote Ignore this post
The-Errorist 664	Posted - 2014.05.02 05:03:00 - [17] - Quote I accidently double posted, I'm going to read the previous post and edit this to make a reply
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13015	Posted - 2014.05.02 12:49:00 - [18] - Quote Personally I would tweak some shield delays and regen rates and leave it at that. On a partially related issue, remove weapon slowdown effects as well. There's nothing at the moment to warrant a set of changes likes this. I appreciate that you're keen on making shields more skirmish oriented, but there really is no need. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Oh, forums


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