DUST Search - My thoughts on swarms.

True Adamance wrote:

Mojo XXXIII wrote:

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

Atiim wrote:

Odigos Ellinas wrote:

Light AV weapons are more a support role for the main AV gear.

Would you happen to have a quote from a DEV stating this?

I'm pretty sure there isn't one. Swarms should be good at AV, but they should not be able to solo any vehicle regardless of fit. This is my issue with buffing them, save for the changes I mention in the OP.

Sooooo, a specifically anti-vehicle weapon that is incapable of destroying a vehicle? That's dumb.

It costs the same as any other AV weapon, requires the same SP commitments, and is completely useless against infantry, why shouldn't it be able to solo a vehicle, like ANY other AV weapon?

I'm not dumping 10 million skill points into a vehicle-specific weapon without the expectation that I will, in fact, be able to destroy vehicles with it.

Otherwise, why spec into it at all? To help someone else destroy a vehicle, maybe get a few damage points and, if I'm really lucky, an assist? Sorry, not worth it.

I'm not saying it should be EASY, just that it should be POSSIBLE, for ANY AV weapon to solo a vehicle.

Of course it should be possible to solo a vehicle with any AV weapon, that common sense and any tanker that denies that..... well.....

But it depends how easy that solo should be. I personally sit in the camp of not easy, otherwise the skill and feeling of reward goes out of tank busting. Consequently HAV should never be invulnerable to AV on a permanent basis...if ever...... but should I feel be able to be highly resistant for a short time, or able to strategically cycle modules.

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Alena Ventrallis PAND3M0N1UM Top Men. 1198	Posted - 2014.04.22 00:49:00 - [1] - Quote Proto swarms are fine. A sica takes 4 swarms to kill before mods, a soma takes 6. The issue is that the standard and advanced swarms are so much weaker. Therefore: Have all variants fire 6 missiles. Have damage per missile increase through the tiers, with proto swarms remaining as they are. As well, a big part of swarms having problems killing things is the long reload times. They have great burst DPS, but the long reload gives ample time for a vehicle to run away before the killing blow can be landed. So I would have all swarms gain one more missile per magazine, with max ammo being adjusted accordingly. This gives you that last oomph to finish a single vehicle. I would also have the reload time increase, to balance this out. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Scheneighnay McBob Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4889	Posted - 2014.04.22 01:00:00 - [2] - Quote Long reload time? Commando skill + rapid reload I'm from the weird side of the internet
Alena Ventrallis PAND3M0N1UM Top Men. 1198	Posted - 2014.04.22 01:05:00 - [3] - Quote Commando and rapid reload require about 2.5 - 3 million SP, so it takes a big investment in SP for that. This I find acceptable. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
The Terminator T-1000 Skynet Incorporated 401	Posted - 2014.04.22 01:13:00 - [4] - Quote Swarms are too slow. ADS is faster than a guided missile. How realistic is that???!!!!
MINA Longstrike 539	Posted - 2014.04.22 01:24:00 - [5] - Quote The Terminator T-1000 wrote: Swarms are too slow. ADS is faster than a guided missile. How realistic is that???!!!! Guided would require you to keep aim on target, swarms are fire and forget. As for their damage, adv & proto swarms are okay against non rep stacked tanks, but are kinda meh against dropships. I don't want to return to 1.6 where 3 volleys killed almost anything, but I so think there needs to be some improvements for the sake of fair play. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
The Terminator T-1000 Skynet Incorporated 401	Posted - 2014.04.22 01:36:00 - [6] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: The Terminator T-1000 wrote: Swarms are too slow. ADS is faster than a guided missile. How realistic is that???!!!! Guided would require you to keep aim on target, swarms are fire and forget. As for their damage, adv & proto swarms are okay against non rep stacked tanks, but are kinda meh against dropships. I don't want to return to 1.6 where 3 volleys killed almost anything, but I so think there needs to be some improvements for the sake of fair play. Either way they are too slow.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 7072	Posted - 2014.04.22 02:10:00 - [7] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Swarms are fire and forget. Fire and Forget would imply that your shots have a realistic chance at hitting it's target. HAV > Infantry > AV < HAV [s]Text[/s] <------ That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Odigos Ellinas Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 115	Posted - 2014.04.22 02:14:00 - [8] - Quote Light AV weapons are more a support role for the main AV gear.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 7072	Posted - 2014.04.22 02:17:00 - [9] - Quote Odigos Ellinas wrote: Light AV weapons are more a support role for the main AV gear. Would you happen to have a quote from a DEV stating this? HAV > Infantry > AV < HAV [s]Text[/s] <------ That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
pyramidhead 420 Carbon 7 Iron Oxide. 451	Posted - 2014.04.22 02:19:00 - [10] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Proto swarms are fine. A sica takes 4 swarms to kill before mods, a soma takes 6. The issue is that the standard and advanced swarms are so much weaker. Therefore: Have all variants fire 6 missiles. Have damage per missile increase through the tiers, with proto swarms remaining as they are. As well, a big part of swarms having problems killing things is the long reload times. They have great burst DPS, but the long reload gives ample time for a vehicle to run away before the killing blow can be landed. So I would have all swarms gain one more missile per magazine, with max ammo being adjusted accordingly. This gives you that last oomph to finish a single vehicle. I would also have the reload time increase, to balance this out. the ammo skill on swarms used to add a missile per level to the clip, but was changed around 1.6 or 1.7

Alena Ventrallis PAND3M0N1UM Top Men. 1203	Posted - 2014.04.22 02:32:00 - [11] - Quote Atiim wrote: Odigos Ellinas wrote: Light AV weapons are more a support role for the main AV gear. Would you happen to have a quote from a DEV stating this? I'm pretty sure there isn't one. Swarms should be good at AV, but they should not be able to solo any vehicle regardless of fit. This is my issue with buffing them, save for the changes I mention in the OP. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2868	Posted - 2014.04.22 02:32:00 - [12] - Quote Atiim wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: Swarms are fire and forget. Fire and Forget would imply that your shots have a realistic chance at hitting it's target. Don't really know if the AI gets worse throughout tiers... but my 'Dren' and CBR-7s seem to hit their targets. ak.0 4 LYFE I am the Lorhak. I speak for the trees.
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 759	Posted - 2014.04.22 02:40:00 - [13] - Quote The Terminator T-1000 wrote: Swarms are too slow. ADS is faster than a guided missile. How realistic is that???!!!! Make 'em faster, it would be great. But could we deal with knock back on those demon things. They may not hurt as much (more than they did, but, no where near as strong as before), but they can knock you so far on some occasions. They love to swirl around you and hit you so they knock you near structures. xSivartx is my Heavy. There are many like him, but he is my own... So, other Logi's back off, those are my Warpoints!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9617	Posted - 2014.04.22 02:54:00 - [14] - Quote Atiim wrote: Odigos Ellinas wrote: Light AV weapons are more a support role for the main AV gear. Would you happen to have a quote from a DEV stating this? You could consider this like Dark Souls...... it's pretty much expressed...but they will never confirm it. Still Swarms are pretty much atm could do some solid damage if they hit a non triple rep tank....... I wonder which section of the community called for hardener nerfs that led to the current meta developing? "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Kane Fyea 2631	Posted - 2014.04.22 02:56:00 - [15] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Atiim wrote: Odigos Ellinas wrote: Light AV weapons are more a support role for the main AV gear. Would you happen to have a quote from a DEV stating this? You could consider this like Dark Souls...... it's pretty much expressed...but they will never confirm it. Still Swarms are pretty much atm could do some solid damage if they hit a non triple rep tank....... I wonder which section of the community called for hardener nerfs that led to the current meta developing? Even with double reps on a tank swarms damage is negligible.
Cruor Abominare Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 114	Posted - 2014.04.22 02:58:00 - [16] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Atiim wrote: Odigos Ellinas wrote: Light AV weapons are more a support role for the main AV gear. Would you happen to have a quote from a DEV stating this? I'm pretty sure there isn't one. Swarms should be good at AV, but they should not be able to solo any vehicle regardless of fit. This is my issue with buffing them, save for the changes I mention in the OP. which makes them totally useless. I'll just spawn in a forge suit and get to kill both vehicles and infantry, since you van very much solo many vehicles in that.
Jet Starflyer Pradox One Proficiency V. 16	Posted - 2014.04.22 02:59:00 - [17] - Quote Swarms are in a pretty decent spot right now. The prototype version definitely doesn't need any buffs, at least concerning dropships. I think they could even use a slight nerf in the amount they knock around a dropship and throw it off course. The other tiers could use a damage increase for sure. I don't think there are any other weapons that gain a massive 50% damage boost from basic to proto.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9617	Posted - 2014.04.22 03:06:00 - [18] - Quote Kane Fyea wrote: True Adamance wrote: Atiim wrote: Odigos Ellinas wrote: Light AV weapons are more a support role for the main AV gear. Would you happen to have a quote from a DEV stating this? You could consider this like Dark Souls...... it's pretty much expressed...but they will never confirm it. Still Swarms are pretty much atm could do some solid damage if they hit a non triple rep tank....... I wonder which section of the community called for hardener nerfs that led to the current meta developing? Even with double reps on a tank swarms damage is negligible. Because my skills buff that beyond 250 or more reps per second...... and people bitched when armour reppers repped like this for a short duration.... Active reps= the way armour reps were meant to be. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Cruor Abominare Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 115	Posted - 2014.04.22 03:11:00 - [19] - Quote Jet Starflyer wrote: Swarms are in a pretty decent spot right now. The prototype version definitely doesn't need any buffs, at least concerning dropships. I think they could even use a slight nerf in the amount they knock around a dropship and throw it off course. The other tiers could use a damage increase for sure. I don't think there are any other weapons that gain a massive 50% damage boost from basic to proto. in my experience swarms are only useful against terrible tankers, its highly questionable to kill tanks especially shield tanks with the entire ammo capacity of a protoswarm. Assuming a drop ship pilot realizes modules can be put on a drop ship my best hope is I make you slam into a wall. Anyone with half a brain is running shields with an afterburner, get hit flip it on and burn straight up out of my range. honestly when it comes to tanks remotes and a flux are far superior faster and arguably safer than dealing with bringing out protoswarms.
Odigos Ellinas Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 116	Posted - 2014.04.22 03:16:00 - [20] - Quote Swarms should never solo any vehicle that is on the move. I am using Advance swarms to support a vehicle in battle or to deny ground to a enemy vehicle. I have soloed militia HAVs (i believe they where not experienced tankers). In co op with a forge gunner i can successfully destroy any HAV. By just not staying next to him but finding a spot where i believe the HAV will try to retrieve. If you want to hunt down vehicles try the militia railguns. Double-triple reps are easy targets for rail guns. Squad up get organized. Dropships are sacrificing PG/CPU and a high slot to get the speed to avoid damage. There is no cover in the sky speed is the only thing to defend them self. I see a lot of players skilling different suites and weapons but the most don't bother to skill any vehicle ( the best AV from day 1 ). Instead of trying to make swarms OP it would be more productive to find a idea to fix the Plasma Cannon. The Gallente light AV weapon that is reduced to nerf Gallente forge gun. Come out with new ideas for Amarr and Minmatar light AV weapons. Thats my opinion based on my experience in the game

Alena Ventrallis PAND3M0N1UM Top Men. 1204	Posted - 2014.04.22 03:25:00 - [21] - Quote Jet Starflyer wrote: Swarms are in a pretty decent spot right now. The prototype version definitely doesn't need any buffs, at least concerning dropships. I think they could even use a slight nerf in the amount they knock around a dropship and throw it off course. The other tiers could use a damage increase for sure. I don't think there are any other weapons that gain a massive 50% damage boost from basic to proto. Damage wise, proto is fine. They do need to knock dropships around a lot less. Dropships also need to lose their innate resistance to swarms. They should be speed tanks, not resist tanks. That's what you get!! - DA Rick
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 850	Posted - 2014.04.22 03:54:00 - [22] - Quote I'm thinking a range boost might help swarms. Add another 50m to 75m. It would help if you could reach out and touch an HAV or dropship without having to get shot at by anyone with a small pistol or at least outside the optimum range for an assault rifle. Munch Minmatar Patriot (Level 7) Dedicated Sniper
Mojo XXXIII Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 10	Posted - 2014.04.22 04:08:00 - [23] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Atiim wrote: Odigos Ellinas wrote: Light AV weapons are more a support role for the main AV gear. Would you happen to have a quote from a DEV stating this? I'm pretty sure there isn't one. Swarms should be good at AV, but they should not be able to solo any vehicle regardless of fit. This is my issue with buffing them, save for the changes I mention in the OP. Sooooo, a specifically anti-vehicle weapon that is incapable of destroying a vehicle? That's dumb. It costs the same as any other AV weapon, requires the same SP commitments, and is completely useless against infantry, why shouldn't it be able to solo a vehicle, like ANY other AV weapon? I'm not dumping 10 million skill points into a vehicle-specific weapon without the expectation that I will, in fact, be able to destroy vehicles with it. Otherwise, why spec into it at all? To help someone else destroy a vehicle, maybe get a few damage points and, if I'm really lucky, an assist? Sorry, not worth it. I'm not saying it should be EASY, just that it should be POSSIBLE, for ANY AV weapon to solo a vehicle.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9618	Posted - 2014.04.22 04:17:00 - [24] - Quote Mojo XXXIII wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Atiim wrote: Odigos Ellinas wrote: Light AV weapons are more a support role for the main AV gear. Would you happen to have a quote from a DEV stating this? I'm pretty sure there isn't one. Swarms should be good at AV, but they should not be able to solo any vehicle regardless of fit. This is my issue with buffing them, save for the changes I mention in the OP. Sooooo, a specifically anti-vehicle weapon that is incapable of destroying a vehicle? That's dumb. It costs the same as any other AV weapon, requires the same SP commitments, and is completely useless against infantry, why shouldn't it be able to solo a vehicle, like ANY other AV weapon? I'm not dumping 10 million skill points into a vehicle-specific weapon without the expectation that I will, in fact, be able to destroy vehicles with it. Otherwise, why spec into it at all? To help someone else destroy a vehicle, maybe get a few damage points and, if I'm really lucky, an assist? Sorry, not worth it. I'm not saying it should be EASY, just that it should be POSSIBLE, for ANY AV weapon to solo a vehicle. Of course it should be possible to solo a vehicle with any AV weapon, that common sense and any tanker that denies that..... well..... But it depends how easy that solo should be. I personally sit in the camp of not easy, otherwise the skill and feeling of reward goes out of tank busting. Consequently HAV should never be invulnerable to AV on a permanent basis...if ever...... but should I feel be able to be highly resistant for a short time, or able to strategically cycle modules. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
The Terminator T-1000 Skynet Incorporated 406	Posted - 2014.04.22 12:41:00 - [25] - Quote Me and 2 team members were shooting an ADS. I was using proto swarm prof 1 and 2 complex dmg mods. We were not able to destroy the ADS because he kept outrunning our swarms
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1530	Posted - 2014.04.22 13:11:00 - [26] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Proto swarms are fine. A sica takes 4 swarms to kill before mods, a soma takes 6. The issue is that the standard and advanced swarms are so much weaker. Therefore: Have all variants fire 6 missiles. Have damage per missile increase through the tiers, with proto swarms remaining as they are. As well, a big part of swarms having problems killing things is the long reload times. They have great burst DPS, but the long reload gives ample time for a vehicle to run away before the killing blow can be landed. So I would have all swarms gain one more missile per magazine, with max ammo being adjusted accordingly. This gives you that last oomph to finish a single vehicle. I would also have the reload time increase, to balance this out. Sica takes less than Soma ?! When it is supposed to tear appart SOMAs.... A wyrkomi costs more than Soma/Sica with stuff on it... What were you smoking when you were using a Wyrkomi ?! Try to tickle a Gunlogi (Wrong tank for swarms) or a Maddy
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 508	Posted - 2014.04.22 13:37:00 - [27] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Mojo XXXIII wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Atiim wrote: Odigos Ellinas wrote: Light AV weapons are more a support role for the main AV gear. Would you happen to have a quote from a DEV stating this? I'm pretty sure there isn't one. Swarms should be good at AV, but they should not be able to solo any vehicle regardless of fit. This is my issue with buffing them, save for the changes I mention in the OP. Sooooo, a specifically anti-vehicle weapon that is incapable of destroying a vehicle? That's dumb. It costs the same as any other AV weapon, requires the same SP commitments, and is completely useless against infantry, why shouldn't it be able to solo a vehicle, like ANY other AV weapon? I'm not dumping 10 million skill points into a vehicle-specific weapon without the expectation that I will, in fact, be able to destroy vehicles with it. Otherwise, why spec into it at all? To help someone else destroy a vehicle, maybe get a few damage points and, if I'm really lucky, an assist? Sorry, not worth it. I'm not saying it should be EASY, just that it should be POSSIBLE, for ANY AV weapon to solo a vehicle. Of course it should be possible to solo a vehicle with any AV weapon, that common sense and any tanker that denies that..... well..... But it depends how easy that solo should be. I personally sit in the camp of not easy, otherwise the skill and feeling of reward goes out of tank busting. Consequently HAV should never be invulnerable to AV on a permanent basis...if ever...... but should I feel be able to be highly resistant for a short time, or able to strategically cycle modules. So are you ever scared of a solo Swarmer taking you out? I doubt it, most tankers are free to ignore them if they want. Because, that's why.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1336	Posted - 2014.04.22 13:38:00 - [28] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Atiim wrote: Odigos Ellinas wrote: Light AV weapons are more a support role for the main AV gear. Would you happen to have a quote from a DEV stating this? I'm pretty sure there isn't one. Swarms should be good at AV, but they should not be able to solo any vehicle regardless of fit. This is my issue with buffing them, save for the changes I mention in the OP. then vehicles should cost 1million isk and not being able to solo whole squads. in short: you scrub opinion is null and void.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 7085	Posted - 2014.04.22 13:41:00 - [29] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Atiim wrote: Odigos Ellinas wrote: Light AV weapons are more a support role for the main AV gear. Would you happen to have a quote from a DEV stating this? I'm pretty sure there isn't one. Swarms should be good at AV, but they should not be able to solo any vehicle regardless of fit. This is my issue with buffing them, save for the changes I mention in the OP. Not only is that false, it's a double negative. HAV > Infantry > AV < HAV [s]Text[/s] <------ That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2609	Posted - 2014.04.22 13:49:00 - [30] - Quote Personally when it comes to AV the main problem is the tiers, swarm launchers have the highest gain per tier, while tanks have the lowest gain per tier as such a std swarm can't take on a std tank anymore than it could a proto mod tank. I like your idea of only increasing the damage per missile as opposed to an extra missile per tier. As for the magazine capacity I would like the operation skill to add an extra round per mag at levels 1,3,5 for a total of 6 at lvl 5. Additionally a max ammo capacity bonus for all AV weapons (SL, Plc, FG) wouldn't go amiss. Finally and purely for asethetic reasons, triple the amount missile per swarm, but take 2/3 damage per missile. I want a god damn swarm not a mild infestation. Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.



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